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OK but didn't some of those people tamper with it after finding the action wasn't meeting their expectations?
Spyderco Advocate
- Thread starter Stays Sharp
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OK but didn't some of those people tamper with it after finding the action wasn't meeting their expectations?
Daniel
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I sent mine in to your attention last Saturday. However, it appears that the USPS has lost it because it has no scans after it left town and it was supposed to be there on Monday. Mine was not "tampered" with. I guess I am now out over $200. I will never know whether it was the detente ball rubbing on the tang or the bearings dimpling the thin bearing race. It all pretty much sucks since this was the first Spyderco that I had bought in over 4 years since your Warranty Department claimed that the knife that I sent in was "tampered" with. No more Spydercos for me. At one time I had over 200 Spyderco knives having collected them since 1990. Your brand WAS usually my first choice.
It is interesting that Reate, Kizer, We, Stedemon, Kai, CRKT all make superior bearing flippers and do not seem to have issues with the pivots. I have not had one problem with them and many are a lot less expensive than what I paid for the Advocate.
NJBillK
Custom Leather and Fixed Blade modifications.
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When a knife is made by a Major brand, and they drop the ball (no pun intended) by doing something like this across multiple knives (Domino, Mantras, Advocate) without correcting it ASAP, that is not a good way to keep customers spending $200+ per purchase of a luxury item...
Add to that folks trying to adjust the pivot or actually see if their knives are "Faulty by design" resulting in them getting denied a repair, charged for a repair, or just flat out blamed for the lack of manufacturing standards just seems like bad form (at a minimum).
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If you paid to have someone install new steps in your house and he only secured the top three stairs with three ten penny nails, how would you feel after you fell down them and he just told you; "Sorry, you landed too hard on the lip of the stair, thus causing it to dislodge. I fastened it enough."
I know what I would say, I would tell him I would no longer be requiring his services and I would find a new contractor...
Add to that folks trying to adjust the pivot or actually see if their knives are "Faulty by design" resulting in them getting denied a repair, charged for a repair, or just flat out blamed for the lack of manufacturing standards just seems like bad form (at a minimum).
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If you paid to have someone install new steps in your house and he only secured the top three stairs with three ten penny nails, how would you feel after you fell down them and he just told you; "Sorry, you landed too hard on the lip of the stair, thus causing it to dislodge. I fastened it enough."
I know what I would say, I would tell him I would no longer be requiring his services and I would find a new contractor...
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Sounds like a postal issue, not a Spyderco issue.
Did you insure it when you shipped?
Hopefully you did...then you can buy a new knife.
Daniel
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Sounds like a postal issue, not a Spyderco issue.
Did you insure it when you shipped?
Hopefully you did...then you can buy a new knife.
Yes, at the base level, it is a postal issue. However, I hold Spyderco complicit in the loss due to my having to send it in for repair in the first place--on my dime.
I did not pay for additional insurance. I used to always insure packages until the USPS refused to pay for losses--twice! It is just pissing away money. I have filed a claim for the $50 insurance on all Priority Mail purchases, but I am not holding my breath.
It sounds like if it ever does arrive, Spyderco will simply say that it has been tampered with, anyway. That is a good catch-all to explain away any defect.
Sal Glesser
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I have said that we are working on a solution. Until I have more information, I not in a position to argue. If you have a problem, contact customer service and make arrangements to have us look at it.
sal
sal
Sal Glesser
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Huge Spyderco fan here, but I'm really disappointed in the company.
It is a really simple issue: the washers are too thin. Taking the knife apart to inspect it (or "tampering" with it) doesn't change the thickness of the washers!
Why can't Sypderco just admit the washers are too thin?
Spyderco points to the low numbers of faulty knives that are sent back as evidence that this is not a big problem, but the real reason is that customers are justifiably afraid to send their knives in.
It is a really simple issue: the washers are too thin. Taking the knife apart to inspect it (or "tampering" with it) doesn't change the thickness of the washers!
Why can't Sypderco just admit the washers are too thin?
Spyderco points to the low numbers of faulty knives that are sent back as evidence that this is not a big problem, but the real reason is that customers are justifiably afraid to send their knives in.
I understand where some posters are coming from; I think we should also take a bit of a step back and see it from Spyderco's perspective here.
Online reports of a faulty design are being taken seriously, but the company needs to work with objective facts, literally in hand. Sal was merely pointing out that the ones that were returned to them for this issue mostly demonstrated that Spyderco will not be able to assess them from an Out of the Box reference point, not that they weren't taking the issue seriously. He even provided an explanation for those who aren't experiencing the issue and would like to prevent it.
There are several natural reactions occurring (tinkering, warranty policies, QC policies, vocal advocacy for change) and those reactions can't be assessed in isolation one way or another. I believe Spyderco is working on a solution that will make the pivot less sensitive to tinkering/over-tightening. Yes they've been on the flipper market for awhile, but no one has really shown them this problem in numbers ranging outside of their tolerances before. It might sound like an easy fix to some of us, but there are supplier, manufacturing, and maybe tooling changes that need to be considered even after a solution is identified that needs to span over multiple product lines, plus (more) rigorous testing for each of those models.
So I'm going to relax and wait and see. I'd love to hear what the solution ends up being.
Online reports of a faulty design are being taken seriously, but the company needs to work with objective facts, literally in hand. Sal was merely pointing out that the ones that were returned to them for this issue mostly demonstrated that Spyderco will not be able to assess them from an Out of the Box reference point, not that they weren't taking the issue seriously. He even provided an explanation for those who aren't experiencing the issue and would like to prevent it.
There are several natural reactions occurring (tinkering, warranty policies, QC policies, vocal advocacy for change) and those reactions can't be assessed in isolation one way or another. I believe Spyderco is working on a solution that will make the pivot less sensitive to tinkering/over-tightening. Yes they've been on the flipper market for awhile, but no one has really shown them this problem in numbers ranging outside of their tolerances before. It might sound like an easy fix to some of us, but there are supplier, manufacturing, and maybe tooling changes that need to be considered even after a solution is identified that needs to span over multiple product lines, plus (more) rigorous testing for each of those models.
So I'm going to relax and wait and see. I'd love to hear what the solution ends up being.
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I don't really think the issue is as big of a deal as some are making it. Especially apostle P. Many times I think his gripes with many knives is his lack of understanding of them and unfair comparisons to other companies who just simply do things differently. The set up on those advocates is very similar to how a southward is set up. I have had quite a few spyderco flippers and while their set ups are not how I prefer them to be done their is no benchmark for how a knife is supposed to flip. People need to either accept that spyderco is making the knives the way they want to make them and its their preferred way of doing things rather than saying "but my ZT, WE, REATE etc etc does it like this." it doesn't really matter. The funny thing Is I would wager the less than impressive action people are feeling isn't even due to the bearings. As I know on my southards the blade didn't guillotine my finger like so many like in their knives when closing. But it had NOTHING to do with the bearings they used or how they were set up. It was all in detent and lockbar set up. Pair that heavier lockbar tension with lighter smaller blades and you simply wont get that insane dropping action of the blade after you disengage the lock. I just kinda find it funny how many people blame a company for not understanding how their knife actually works. From people complaining about stiff microtechs, to dudes complaining their frame lock slips after they doused the lock with militec to guys saying their $30 titanium knives wont anodize properly because they don't know the difference between a nitride coating a solid metal.
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I haven't purchased a Spyderco knife in five years and it looks like that trend will continue. Companies will make mistakes it's just the nature of the beast. It's how the company handles those mistakes and treats their customers that sets them apart. Spyderco forgot that along way. Blaming manufacturing defects on custumer tampering? Sure in some cases but not in all.
I'm not sure how much you've followed this discussion, but Spyderco did not blame the defects on customer tampering. I can see how Sal's words might be interpreted that way. To me, it sounded like he was just stating the facts of what he was working with.
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Spyderco and Sal specifically listens to its customers more than any knife company that I'm aware of. I also wish the bumpiness I experienced on the Mantra would have been resolved by the time the Advocate was released but I'm willing to be patient with Spyderco. As far as I'm concerned they've earned a lot of goodwill over the years.
NJBillK
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Ok, so a few knives have been returned and that isn't enough of a sample pool to pull from.
- Did they release the knives without a run of test knives?
- Did they not flip those test models (made at factory spec)?
- Did they not tighten the pivot a little bit to see the affect?
- Did they not realize that most people would that are willing drop $200+ on a knife would want the action to be to the Purchasing Individuals liking and possibly nudge the pivot in one way or the other?
All of the above should have been noted and either adjusted, fixed, or stated to the public prior to release. If adjusting the pivot was known to break, dent, crease, or otherwise damage the knife, it should have been stated.
If it is was known and not stated or corrected... Well then the sights have been set on profit and not quality across numerous platforms, and we have been fighting a losing war...
If it wasn't known... Then in guess they just aren't listening to those that are passionate about their company.
This is not the only model that this has been an issue with. Due to that it should have had A Multiple of chances to be corrected, across Each platform, if they wanted to...
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The First quality knife I purchased was in 1998 and it was a Saber ground Spyderco Endura. I still have it, lock slip and all. I didn't sent it back because I use it correctly and don't worry about the lock disengaging.
My most recent purchase was a Gayle Bradley 1, and I love it.
Unfortunately, they are both being shelved temporarily.
I have carried Spydercos for a Long time, and I love them dearly, and they have earned my respect and trust. But this issue just pushes too many buttons...
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I don't disagree with anything you've listed, save for one thing. I also don't work for Spyderco, so I'm not privy to any of their testing or discussions.
What I do know, from tracking Spyderco over the years, and the character that they've demonstrated by actually interfacing with the end line user (us!) on a regular basis (the founder/owner himself, no less), is that they like to try a lot of stuff, testing what they can think of testing, and then adjusting based on customer feedback (CQI), which is what's happening here.
Could they have benchmarked against more of competitors' flippers first? Sure.
Was this implementation lacking and leaving a lot to be desired? Absolutely.
The knives are being used in a way that is slightly beyond what their design anticipated. Again, not knowing the precise details, I'm guessing this was a design decision made well before the Advocate was even on the table and because there wasn't much physical evidence (or online issue) at the time, Spyderco kept doing what it believed was working (as we all do). Spitballing a theory here: the thin washer issue wasn't as evident with the early flippers because, as Sal mentioned, heavier blades (Southard, Domino, Rubicon) could overcome the increased friction and weren't as sensitive to the ball bearing dimples.
The fact that these threads are left open and not locked, wrapped in a rug, and tossed into a river shows that Spyderco does listen and does value our feedback. It just needs to be substantiated to a sufficient degree to take this level of action. For all they know, it could have been a bad batch of washers (it's not. It's systemic.).
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I'm kind of thinking this as well. Reminds me of my 0562 that had developed deeply worn races in the Ti from the bearings. Everyone was talking up the "bearings on Ti boogeyman" and my knife DID exhibit these effects. But my knife was supremely smooth, rock solid, and stayed perfectly centered. Yeah the grooves appeared (like your dished washers) but it didn't negatively affect the knife at all. I actually grew fond of the worn races, the bearings fit in them perfectly.
I'd wager that if the washers in the Advocate start dishing and feel unsmooth, its because its early in the dishing process. Once the dishes are really established and rolled smooth I think the knife will be smooth and stay smooth. :thumbup:
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Just got off the phone with customer service. I mentioned mine has a gritty action and there had been some known problems. Send it in a we will look at it. If it's been disassembled and tampered with, we will charge $20, but won't know until we look at it. I told them I had dissasembled it and one of my washers was very deformed. He said that the washer's will concave naturally when the pivot is tightened. I told him it was bent, not "concaved". I asked if he'd just sent me a replacement washers. "WE don't sent out internal parts, in case of clones, etc. Uh, this is a brand new knife to the market, as sneaky as the chinese are there aren't clones yet. So basically, because I inspected mine due to the gritty action and ti inspect because of all of the know issues, I'm not out $20 for warranty repair and $5 shipping. $25 to replace a washer? Are you kidding me?
I've been a long time buyer of Spyderco knives, but this fries me. I'm hoping Sal's solution involves either sending out replacement washers or having everyone send in their Advocates for FREE repair. For now it's going on the shelf.
I've been a long time buyer of Spyderco knives, but this fries me. I'm hoping Sal's solution involves either sending out replacement washers or having everyone send in their Advocates for FREE repair. For now it's going on the shelf.
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That is exactly why they don't send out internal parts. Basically blue prints for cloners. Not that they are afraid the washers will be put into a clone knife.