Spyderco Advocate

hoimin said:
The bearing race washer issue really came to a head this year as far as I can tell. In previous iterations, I'm not sure it was ever clearly determined to be an issue on previous models, even though I understand that it mechanically is one.

I think it's an issue on all the flippers implemented this way, but it's most evident on the ones with lighter blades.

I'm not a maker or engineer, but my going theory is that the ball bearings are indenting the bearing race washer if the pivot is tweaked beyond a certain amount. Some people have been able to correct it by basically mashing the pivot down and carving out a groove in the washers so it's infinitely dimpled, so to speak. I've suggested using a grooved bearing race like Kizer and a few other companies do. This keeps the ball bearings at a specific distance from the scale as there is nothing moving to wear down on the shoulders of the groove, while letting the ball bearings roll freely. Grooved washers are much thicker though, so the tolerances in the pocket need to be accounted for. I think anything that keeps the ball bearing cage from moving into the handle scale will help solve the problem.

Forgoing the race washer entirely will eventually lead to lateral blade play when the ball bearings wear into the titanium scale unless the pivot pocket is sufficiently hardened (heat treat?).
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Hi Hoimin,

I believe you are closer to what's going on. The "fix" requires some study.

Hi Tim,

Which model do you have?

If you send it in, call it to my attention.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Hoimin,

I believe you are closer to what's going on. The "fix" requires some study.

sal
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I'm confident you guys will find a way.

I had a previous idea on the Spyderco forum to maybe seat a ring the height of the ball bearing protrusion between the ball bearing washer and the bearing race washer that would elevate the former and prevent it from pushing into the latter, so that existing stock of parts could still be used up rather than going to waste. I don't think that will work anymore having seen some closer pictures of the existing ball bearing washers as there's not much shoulder room around the outer or inner circumference.

I'm toying with the theory that if it's just the ball bearings that need to roll to let the blade smoothly transit, why don't we just lock the ball bearing washer in place (tab + indent) so it doesn't have to orbit the pivot post and 'feel' the race washer dimples should they manifest? I have no way to verify anything myself :(

In any case, this is a curious pickle to solve, ideally without having to throw out at least the ball bearing washers already in stock in Taichung.
 
Just because the money was spent on the washers, doesn't mean it was wasted. The can use it on another knife just as easily, especially if the knife is designed to use them and have a functional plate for them to ride on.

I am more than content with the smoothness of my Large 21 CRK, and that uses phosphor bronze washers and a bushing pivot.

What about a simple stack of phosphor bronze washers to fill the bearing well and one larger one to act as the washer normally would, this would also keep the tolerances in check by allowing for adjustment (2, 3, 4 washers to fill the well, et al).

While it may not be anything more than a "patch",it is one that any end user can attempt. If I had one and already opened it up, I would give it a shot.
Worst case scenario is I would pay the repair tab anyway...

Hell, there is a chance that this could be a Very smooth alternative due to the lubricant being sandwiched between the washers and them all rotating along one another, similar to row bearings in functon.
 
Bearings wearing races into Ti in my experience hasn't posed a problem at all. In fact, I think it improved the knife after the races were established. I'll dig up the pics when I get home.

Here they are
11tlvcx.jpg


No issues what so ever. I'd say it broke in better than when new.
 
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Well, my Advocate has seemed to reappear from the dead in the USPS tracking system. It finally shows up in Denver after 6 days from Arizona to Denver!

Hope may still be alive that it will show up in Mr. Glesser's hands tomorrow.
 
Daniel said:
Well, my Advocate has seemed to reappear from the dead in the USPS tracking system. It finally shows up in Denver after 6 days from Arizona to Denver!

Hope may still be alive that it will show up in Mr. Glesser's hands tomorrow.
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That's fantastic news! I was rooting for your knife to still be in transit. Occasionally, stuff doesn't get properly scanned through the checkpoints but still proceeds down the line.
 
hoimin said:
That's fantastic news! I was rooting for your knife to still be in transit. Occasionally, stuff doesn't get properly scanned through the checkpoints but still proceeds down the line.
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thanks!
 
Can't wait for the non-flipper version to be available with standard washers!

(Chanting in background: sprint run! sprint run!)
 
Mine flips fine. It is a solid knife with premium materials for $200. I will admit I am not freaked out or overwhelmed if the blade is off center a few degrees. If the knife has a little sharp edge I fix it. I have found similar issues on BM, ZT, Reate, Fantoni etc. I also have the Bradley Custom version of this knife and find the advocate to be superior in some of the aesthetics.

If there turns out to be a valid design flaw I will withdraw my comments but all the Spyderco's I have function well and perform well.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Hoimin,

I believe you are closer to what's going on. The "fix" requires some study.

Hi Tim,

Which model do you have?

If you send it in, call it to my attention.

sal
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Sal,

We appreciate your patience and your class in how you interact with the community. Keep up the great work, you are one of the big reasons why Spyderco is my favorite knife company.

Thanks!
 
Hi Daniel,

Glad it showed up. I'll alert Charlynn and watch for it.

Hi Hoimin,

We don't have a problem with dumping bearings, hell, we've dumped entire shipments (1200 pcs) with a safety issue that couldn't be repaired. The Advocate is a very thin model with a thin blade. Thin flippers are much harder to make. Most of our competitors are making thicker models with thicker blades. Most of our customers have not had problems, but it's worth solving the propbem for the few. I assure you they all left QC working well and we 100% QC these.

We'll get it sorted, we're persistent. Probably not much will happen until after SHOT, but Eric and I have been discussing this issue every day.

sal
 
kniferbro said:
Bearings wearing races into Ti in my experience hasn't posed a problem at all. In fact, I think it improved the knife after the races were established. I'll dig up the pics when I get home.

Here they are
11tlvcx.jpg


No issues what so ever. I'd say it broke in better than when new.
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And that is a 0562? CF?
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Daniel,

Glad it showed up. I'll alert Charlynn and watch for it.

Hi Hoimin,

We don't have a problem with dumping bearings, hell, we've dumped entire shipments (1200 pcs) with a safety issue that couldn't be repaired. The Advocate is a very thin model with a thin blade. Thin flippers are much harder to make. Most of our competitors are making thicker models with thicker blades. Most of our customers have not had problems, but it's worth solving the propbem for the few. I assure you they all left QC working well and we 100% QC these.

We'll get it sorted, we're persistent. Probably not much will happen until after SHOT, but Eric and I have been discussing this issue every day.

sal
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The best thing about spyderco is your resistance to building crazy thick blades. The blade thickness of the domino and advocate is what makes me love them. I own flippers from hinderer, calavera and Curtis and my advocate will outslice them all. I used to believe over built knives were the bees knees. Now I realize I wasted thousands on knives that just don't cut or slice well. I hope someday we see an even thinner flipper with a 3.5 to 4 inch blade. Thank you Sal for taking chances and innovating.

20170114_101015.jpg
 
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Sal Glesser said:
Hi Hoimin,

We don't have a problem with dumping bearings, hell, we've dumped entire shipments (1200 pcs) with a safety issue that couldn't be repaired. The Advocate is a very thin model with a thin blade. Thin flippers are much harder to make. Most of our competitors are making thicker models with thicker blades. Most of our customers have not had problems, but it's worth solving the propbem for the few. I assure you they all left QC working well and we 100% QC these.

We'll get it sorted, we're persistent. Probably not much will happen until after SHOT, but Eric and I have been discussing this issue every day.

sal
Click to expand...

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with to make it a bit more dummy-proof. There is a lot to like about the Advocate and slimmer and thinner patterns in general.
 
Have there been any advancements in anyone's situations?
Daniel, did your knife finally arrive?
Mr. Glesser, any progression in determining a patch or hot fix for these?
 
Yes, it arrived Friday the 13th. I don't expect any developments until after the SHOT show.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Hoimin,

We don't have a problem with dumping bearings, hell, we've dumped entire shipments (1200 pcs) with a safety issue that couldn't be repaired. The Advocate is a very thin model with a thin blade. Thin flippers are much harder to make. Most of our competitors are making thicker models with thicker blades. Most of our customers have not had problems, but it's worth solving the propbem for the few. I assure you they all left QC working well and we 100% QC these.

We'll get it sorted, we're persistent. Probably not much will happen until after SHOT, but Eric and I have been discussing this issue every day.

sal
Click to expand...

I don't post a lot these days and I try to avoid attaboy posts, but I just have to point out - here's a man who's:

- calm when some pretty serious things are being said about his product
- not taking any of this personally
- calling a spade a spade, not ducking or making excuses
- resolved to do whatever it takes to fix the problem

This is just so rare, in every part of life... :thumbup:
 
JNewell said:
I don't post a lot these days and I try to avoid attaboy posts, but I just have to point out - here's a man who's:

- calm when some pretty serious things are being said about his product
- not taking any of this personally
- calling a spade a spade, not ducking or making excuses
- resolved to do whatever it takes to fix the problem

This is just so rare, in every part of life... :thumbup:
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Well said.
 
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