Spyderco Advocate

Hi AmosPaul,

I believe that my first comment was that I thought the washers were too thin. Making them thicker changes all of the engineering. We're experimenting with just removing them.

sal
 
kniferbro said:
That is exactly why they don't send out internal parts. Basically blue prints for cloners. Not that they are afraid the washers will be put into a clone knife. :)
Click to expand...


The faulty ones?
Let them clone them and have Spyderco correct it and repair under warranty their lack of manufacturing standards (on this one item, and knives effected by said item).

I was actually contemplating trading into an Advocate and sanding down some bronze phosphor washers to fill the bearing well and carrying the knife without said factory washers and bearings.
------
I undertake that things take time to change and for issues to rear their head.
But knowing that this Could be an issue would strike me as a reason for further study and not use their user base as a test bed for production pieces.

I know small changes occur, milled liners to shed weight in the GB1, et al, but to include an item that makes you think they were thinking; "As long as they don't do 'xxxx' we will be fine." just goes to show that they ask, and read but don't listen.

If Any company made a knife that had an assisted close (you nudge the blade and it snaps shut) it would be deemed a user liability and the knife wouldn't be purchased.
Learn from the mistake.
If said company made a second, or a third or dare I say a Fourth knife with said "feature" knowing it was an issue all along anf didn't correct it. Then went to blame the consumer for trying to alleviate, adjust, or even see what the issue was, then that is a larger issue than just what the assisted closing does, it has now become what the assisted closing represents.
 
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NJBillK said:
The faulty ones?
Let them clone them and have Spyderco correct it and repair under warranty their lack of manufacturing standards (on this one item, and knives effected by said item).

I was actually contemplating trading into an Advocate and sanding down some bronze phosphor washers to fill the bearing well and carrying the knife without said washers and bearings.
------
I undertake that things take time to change and for issues to rear their head.

Editing for addition.
Click to expand...

I was just speaking in general as to why Spyderco doesn't send out internal parts for fear of clones :)
 
I understand the point.
I was just saying that in this particular instance, it wouldn't do any harm to send some out, if anything it might help them combat the cloners by having them make more faulty knives...
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi AmosPaul,

I believe that my first comment was that I thought the washers were too thin. Making them thicker changes all of the engineering. We're experimenting with just removing them.

sal
Click to expand...

Glad to know more details on the solution, and your presence here and response mean that you do care and aren't telling us just to "deal with it". I will be anxiously awaiting the outcome.
 
NJBillK said:
I understand the point.
I was just saying that in this particular instance, it wouldn't do any harm to send some out, if anything it might help them combat the cloners by having them make more faulty knives...
Click to expand...

Bill I'm not trying to argue you sorry if I came off that way. They're probably just sticking to SOP, which is to not send out internal parts.
 
Mick_1KRR said:
See now here's what my point is. Any blade, no matter what will push or baton/wedge it's way through wood with force, it's steel pressing back against a stop pin, there's little to no issue. But over time, what you don't realize, is the bearings being much harder on the rockwell scale than your titanium handles are carving a nice track into the handles in the pivot area. Any strong lateral force can even put indents into the titanium. There is no way in gods green earth that bearings will provide as much lateral strength or longevity to a knife used in hard conditions than large flat supportive washers. Bearings are just a craze right now, cos guys like to flip their knives out fast and feel cool. Yeah, they'll last and do the job, but they aren't a structural upgrade of ANY kind. It's an engineering fact not just my opinion. It's a shame, cos ZT's like the one in your pic while having super strong thick blades and edge geometry seem pretty tough, but are only as strong as their weakest links - the frame lock and the bearings. Take a simple cheap code 4 from cold steel or ultimate hunter even and it will beat any ZT knife in hard use, it's just a matter of build strength and weakest links. Please don't think i'm bashing your knife, i'm just trying to be real about facts, heck half the enjoyment of knives is the fun, and you have a right to use and enjoy what makes you happy :)
Click to expand...

ZT doesn't which is a point of annoyance, I'll admit. You're not wrong when it comes to current ZT flippers, but most companies employ a steel race for the bearings which makes your point largely invalid. And to the use of knives in a context of lateral force, I'd recommend a fixed blade, or a prybar. Knives are made to cut, and if you are prying, that is, applying significant lateral force (enough to produce bearing indents in titanium), you're using the wrong tool for the job.
 
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I used my Domino extensively for 3 years before it became gritty. I had to pay the fee to get it fixed but came back perfect. My Rubicon is buttery smooth. The issue seems to be isolated to this model.

A potential solution would be to mill the pocket in the liner a few thousandths deeper to accommodate a thicker washer.

This whole problem surfaced pretty recently. It'll be interesting to see the fix.
 
kniferbro said:
Bill I'm not trying to argue you sorry if I came off that way. They're probably just sticking to SOP, which is to not send out internal parts.
Click to expand...

No apologies required.
I just didn't want to come across as my lacking of comprehension. A character flaw, I know.

No slight was meant on my end. You have my apologies as well.
 
NJBillK said:
The faulty ones?
Let them clone them and have Spyderco correct it and repair under warranty their lack of manufacturing standards (on this one item, and knives effected by said item).

I was actually contemplating trading into an Advocate and sanding down some bronze phosphor washers to fill the bearing well and carrying the knife without said factory washers and bearings.
------
I undertake that things take time to change and for issues to rear their head.
But knowing that this Could be an issue would strike me as a reason for further study and not use their user base as a test bed for production pieces.

I know small changes occur, milled liners to shed weight in the GB1, et al, but to include an item that makes you think they were thinking; "As long as they don't do 'xxxx' we will be fine." just goes to show that they ask, and read but don't listen.

If Any company made a knife that had an assisted close (you nudge the blade and it snaps shut) it would be deemed a user liability and the knife wouldn't be purchased.
Learn from the mistake.
If said company made a second, or a third or dare I say a Fourth knife with said "feature" knowing it was an issue all along anf didn't correct it. Then went to blame the consumer for trying to alleviate, adjust, or even see what the issue was, then that is a larger issue than just what the assisted closing does, it has now become what the assisted closing represents.
Click to expand...

I understand your frustrations; a lot of them seem to stem from your perception that Spyderco was already aware of the washer thinness being a flaw and went ahead with the design anyway across multiple lines. That doesn't really match up with the character of the company that we've come to know.

The actual timeline of awareness of the issue in Spyderco is from the beginning of this year (10 days, plus or minus a couple), and there is a paper trail on this and Spyderco's own forum detailing how it came to light, so I think a bit of patience here is warranted.
 
If that is the case, then absolutely.
I just have yet to see anything documenting the issue being addressed aside from this thread and it being an issue from when the Domino was released.
- Due to your post I will be looking further into the time line and documentation outside of this thread.

I just don't appreciate it when we are told essentially "you touched it, you are at fault, regardless of standards of manufacturer". Aside from a "We're looking into it.", which is damage control outside of a modicum of communication.
You don't do the right thing when someone is looking, you do the right thing when you know it is what has to be done.
Saving a penny here and there to see if you can skate by on it isn't what I look for.

Due to that, how this is handled will speak volumes of the company, especially if it is a small number and a short time frame in which it has cropped up.
(Speaking of that small time frame, I didn't think the Domino was released on January 1, 2017, and this an issue on that knife.)

Edit to add: first instance I was able to quickly find was November 20, 2015 of someone complaining about this exact problem on a Domino and they are stating that they have read of it before...
As well as Numerous reports of this happening on a Mantra 1 & 2.

I will be looking further, but there seems to be mounting evidence in the oppositions corner, though I have not searched specifically for Spydercos statement on it and having a date to corroborate it with.
 
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The bearing race washer issue really came to a head this year as far as I can tell. In previous iterations, I'm not sure it was ever clearly determined to be an issue on previous models, even though I understand that it mechanically is one.

I think it's an issue on all the flippers implemented this way, but it's most evident on the ones with lighter blades.

I'm not a maker or engineer, but my going theory is that the ball bearings are indenting the bearing race washer if the pivot is tweaked beyond a certain amount. Some people have been able to correct it by basically mashing the pivot down and carving out a groove in the washers so it's infinitely dimpled, so to speak. I've suggested using a grooved bearing race like Kizer and a few other companies do. This keeps the ball bearings at a specific distance from the scale as there is nothing moving to wear down on the shoulders of the groove, while letting the ball bearings roll freely. Grooved washers are much thicker though, so the tolerances in the pocket need to be accounted for. I think anything that keeps the ball bearing cage from moving into the handle scale will help solve the problem.

Forgoing the race washer entirely will eventually lead to lateral blade play when the ball bearings wear into the titanium scale unless the pivot pocket is sufficiently hardened (heat treat?).
 
As for why the Domino/Dice/Mantra/Southard issues didn't get addressed like this back then, it looks like people that encountered the bumpiness tried to self-correct, took it apart (voiding warranty) and, not wanting to deal with the costs, sold the knife off. Spyderco never really got to see enough of them come through their system.

I had 'grittiness' on my Positron that was likely from the washers, but I also sold it off after fixing it with oil on the pivot and determining that I didn't really like flippers.
 
hoimin said:
The bearing race washer issue really came to a head this year as far as I can tell. In previous iterations, I'm not sure it was ever clearly determined to be an issue on previous models, even though I understand that it mechanically is one.

I think it's an issue on all the flippers implemented this way, but it's most evident on the ones with lighter blades.

I'm not a maker or engineer, but my going theory is that the ball bearings are indenting the bearing race washer if the pivot is tweaked beyond a certain amount. Some people have been able to correct it by basically mashing the pivot down and carving out a groove in the washers so it's infinitely dimpled, so to speak. I've suggested using a grooved bearing race like Kizer and a few other companies do. This keeps the ball bearings at a specific distance from the scale as there is nothing moving to wear down on the shoulders of the groove, while letting the ball bearings roll freely. Grooved washers are much thicker though, so the tolerances in the pocket need to be accounted for. I think anything that keeps the ball bearing cage from moving into the handle scale will help solve the problem.

Forgoing the race washer entirely will eventually lead to lateral blade play when the ball bearings wear into the titanium scale unless the pivot pocket is sufficiently hardened (heat treat?).
Click to expand...

Well stated. I think Spyderco needs to completely re-engineer their bearing pivots to be competitive. Bearing flippers need to be very smooth. Obviously.
 
Mick_1KRR said:
See now here's what my point is. Any blade, no matter what will push or baton/wedge it's way through wood with force, it's steel pressing back against a stop pin, there's little to no issue. But over time, what you don't realize, is the bearings being much harder on the rockwell scale than your titanium handles are carving a nice track into the handles in the pivot area. Any strong lateral force can even put indents into the titanium. There is no way in gods green earth that bearings will provide as much lateral strength or longevity to a knife used in hard conditions than large flat supportive washers. Bearings are just a craze right now, cos guys like to flip their knives out fast and feel cool. Yeah, they'll last and do the job, but they aren't a structural upgrade of ANY kind. It's an engineering fact not just my opinion. It's a shame, cos ZT's like the one in your pic while having super strong thick blades and edge geometry seem pretty tough, but are only as strong as their weakest links - the frame lock and the bearings. Take a simple cheap code 4 from cold steel or ultimate hunter even and it will beat any ZT knife in hard use, it's just a matter of build strength and weakest links. Please don't think i'm bashing your knife, i'm just trying to be real about facts, heck half the enjoyment of knives is the fun, and you have a right to use and enjoy what makes you happy :)
Click to expand...



I don't think you really understand things as much as you think. Even if you make a knife with bearings and don't inset a piece of steel for the bearings to ride on it wont make any difference in the long run. Do you know how ikbs is created? The inventors of the system actually force the race into the titanium by using the bearings themselves. The bearings wear into the titanium and it creates a perfect race that is cold rolled and it work hardens the titanium. At a certain point that race stops completely once the ti hardens and it wont wear any further. Bearings in knives are not high speed and no folding knife is made for lateral stress unless the company says this is ok. In most cases it is not. So will a channel wear into the titanium? Sure will. But will it cause problems? No it wont. In fact it will make for a smoother knife and wont have an issue. Just occasionally tighten the pivot and after about a year of use you wont have anything to worry about. Its not like the bearings are going to wear through the scales completely and leaving you with a broken knife. This is another example of people who don't fully realizing how these things work and have unrealistic fears of failure.
 
NJBillK said:
If that is the case, then absolutely.
I just have yet to see anything documenting the issue being addressed aside from this thread and it being an issue from when the Domino was released.
- Due to your post I will be looking further into the time line and documentation outside of this thread.

I just don't appreciate it when we are told essentially "you touched it, you are at fault, regardless of standards of manufacturer". Aside from a "We're looking into it.", which is damage control outside of a modicum of communication.
You don't do the right thing when someone is looking, you do the right thing when you know it is what has to be done.
Saving a penny here and there to see if you can skate by on it isn't what I look for.

Due to that, how this is handled will speak volumes of the company, especially if it is a small number and a short time frame in which it has cropped up.
(Speaking of that small time frame, I didn't think the Domino was released on January 1, 2017, and this an issue on that knife.)

Edit to add: first instance I was able to quickly find was November 20, 2015 of someone complaining about this exact problem on a Domino and they are stating that they have read of it before...
As well as Numerous reports of this happening on a Mantra 1 & 2.

I will be looking further, but there seems to be mounting evidence in the oppositions corner, though I have not searched specifically for Spydercos statement on it and having a date to corroborate it with.
Click to expand...

Which of the Spyderco flippers do you own? I only have the black Southard and it's been fine from day one. No issues at all.
 
To be fair, I have yet to own one. This thread has halted my purchase.

I have been trying to decide between the ZT 562, Mantra 2 and an Advocate, and that lead to this thread and the issues detailed therein (The Mantra 2 was winning).
I have other high end knives, both flippers and manuals, and this was going to be another...
Regarding Spyderco as a whole, I have a Saber ground endura, 4 manix 2s, a GB1, and the Misses has a ladybug.

Though please correct me if I am wrong in taking your comment was not meant in the light that if I don't own one, I can't comment. Due entirely to my reading comprehension and the fact that it is a documented issue.
 
NJBillK said:
To be fair, I have yet to own one. This thread has halted my purchase.

I have been trying to decide between the ZT 562, Mantra 2 and an Advocate, and that lead to this thread and the issues detailed therein (The Mantra 2 was winning).
I have other high end knives, both flippers and manuals, and this was going to be another...
Regarding Spyderco as a whole, I have a Saber ground endura, 4 manix 2s, a GB1, and the Misses has a ladybug.

Though please correct me if I am wrong in taking your comment was not meant in the light that if I don't own one, I can't comment. Due entirely to my reading comprehension and the fact that it is a documented issue.
Click to expand...

No question if your looking for a good flipper the 562 is the clear winner here. I have the Advocate, had the Mantra 1 and still own the 562cf. ZT has really perfected the flipper.
 
Sal Glesser said:
We have no way of knowing that, and frankly we haven'r received very many.

sal
Click to expand...

Hi Sal, I'd be happy to send mine in. It exhibits the poor flipping and closing action as others have noted. I've never taken it apart and only have put Tuf-Glide on it. I absolutely love everything about this knife except the action.

Thank you,
 
NJBillK said:
To be fair, I have yet to own one. This thread has halted my purchase.

I have been trying to decide between the ZT 562, Mantra 2 and an Advocate, and that lead to this thread and the issues detailed therein (The Mantra 2 was winning).
I have other high end knives, both flippers and manuals, and this was going to be another...
Regarding Spyderco as a whole, I have a Saber ground endura, 4 manix 2s, a GB1, and the Misses has a ladybug.

Though please correct me if I am wrong in taking your comment was not meant in the light that if I don't own one, I can't comment. Due entirely to my reading comprehension and the fact that it is a documented issue.
Click to expand...

Everyone is free to comment. I don't own one and I'm commenting. I was hoping to get some more info though to share with the group. So throwing this open to the floor.

Do all the flippers share the same internal mechanism or do different models have different setups? If models A, B, and C all share the same parts an all have problems while D uses a different setup and has no problems then that's something to look at.
 
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