Spyderco Manix 2 and Benchmade Griptillian - Next 2 test knives

[philwar]

Here's the problem *puts on HATER CAP* cold steel doesn't test their knives like Ankerson does. His tests are unbias and unselected. EVERY knife gets the same test. Cold steel selects certain knives for certain tests,

Completely untrue. I don't know if they test all their folders the same way, but certainly they do with most of them. With varying results, I might add.
Pick another reason to hate them, if you need one at all.

Also cold steel uses different people with different knives for different tests. Clearly with that amount of variables any data you collect is worthless.

It's not about data. It's not intended to be scientific. I'm sure you don't need anyone to tell you this.
They show their knives being hard-used, abused even. If not all of them, certainly most of them. Those knives are designed and built to take it. Punching them thru car hoods, hanging people off them and different weights, cutting ropes of different thickness, cardboard, meat, doing all that and demonstrating the knife is still 100% functional, it isn't measurable or quantifiable, but in essence it isn't any different that what Jim just showed us.
I wouldn't try to stab a Manix II thru a car hood if they paid me a $1000. I would do it with a Lawman just for fun.

Also CS does some *just for show* and *worthless tests* Your knife can cut meat.....so what?

You can infer from those tests what you like. If you infer nothing, fine too.
I still haven't seen a reason to hate them for it. Even if it's all 100% spectacle and show, why take offense?

 

[Steven Andrews]

Does anyone else think that had the Benchmade failed and not the Manix II, this thread would have become the biggest Spyderco wankfest of all time?

 

[Cotherion]

One thing, the newer design BB locks rely on a small BB to be the critical component in the lock. That little fella is prevented from moving side to side by 2 things. One is the curved "roof" and the other is the polymer.

Secondly the BB needs to be in the centre or roughly centre of the blade tang for the dang thing to work. Now if it was my well worn Poliwog (where the BB is blinking huge in relation to its size and the BB has traveled inwards sufficiently) the liners and the curved roof prevents the BB from moving side to side.

What the heck am I getting at?
Ankerson you should do spinewhacks and overstrikes on a new Manix 2 before wood carving. Well generally you can just change ur methodology to do the carving first if you can. However what you are doing now is fine enough but this way the MAnix 2 can perform better.

The wood carving created side to side play which the little fella... I mean the BB could not sit in the centre. In theory also you should do this test with a moderately worn locks cause you do need a little travel to let it sit in a deep and secure position instead of on the precipice looking over the edge

Polymer replaced by steel is a nice idea, even better for Spyderco to just replace the whole dang thing by a single rod (ala Axis and Ultra). That way the force distribution is to BOTH the "roof" and the liners and the influence of side to side play be damned.

That's why I like big balls and big rods, not little balls! My Poliwog is still good and strong

Hmmm.... Last statement could be misunderstood

 

[Cotherion]

Oh yeah, I'm still a fan of Spyderco, as well as Cold Steel. If ever advices had to be given regarding design or preferance I had the least gripe with Spyderco. For Cold Steel I prefer (just anal) SS liners and higher end steel. For Benchmade is just the Omega. If there was a way to replace the Omega spring with helical springs of Spyderco, we will definitely have a winner in my books.

I have fewer issues with Spyderco. They satisfy my knife cravings rather lot. In the Manix 2's case I'd recommend them to go back to single screw pivot screw with basic T shaped screws and heads. The counter sunk V shape is one of the contributing factors to the side to side movement because force is distributed with a horizontal and vertical component. And two screws means two possibilities of screws adjusting themselves. Not in a screws unscrewing sense but more in the material deformation. I got an engineer from Bauma Germany who worked in Zublin who told me that he prefer to minimise the screwed components because the threads to threads contact can deform slightly over time or in this case, over a adequate enough force.

 

[Buffalohump]

Well, its an interesting development to be sure but I still maintain a folder is a folder and not designed for that type of action. I dont know that it will influence my purchasing decisions all that much. Lock strength is but one factor in what makes a good knife. For 99% of the things I use my folders for, the locks are plenty strong enough and I still have all ten fingers to prove it.

What I DO like about the ball lock is there is no movement when you bear down on the blade to cut through something tough. Whereas the back lock does have this and it always annoys me.

Thanks for the efforts Jim, I do believe you are making a significant contribution to our knowledge of these wonderful tools and I hope you can ultimately generate some income from all your hard work. :thumbup:

 

[Cotherion]

Oh yeah forgot, someone give Ankerson a Ti ATR from Spyderco, a Manix and an Extrema Ratio lockback folder

 

[marthinus]

Thanks for the videos Ankerson. Wont impact my decision to buy any knife but good entertainment.

The hardest use I plan to do is the wood cutting and light batoning with my folders (by light I mean to make kindling to get a fire going) other then that I will use an axe.

Still will be interested to see if Sal wants to have a look as it can give us great contribution and increase our knowledge.

 

[JNewell]

Calling those repeated, heavy spinewhacks a test is quite a leap of imagination. Folding knives are meant to cut, and to fold. They're not designed to be used as a hammer. There is no folding knife I cannot break with abuse if I want to...

 

[Ankerson]

Thanks for all the comments.

 

[marthinus]

I don't know if they test all their folders the same way, but certainly they do with most of them. W

Just my 2 cents and you are welcome to disagree but one thing I noticed is they use new knives of one model for each test. They dont take one knife and do all the tests with that one knife. I think that is important as the knife might hold up in one test and then be faulty in the next

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

It would take a LOT to dent it. The tang pushes against the lock bar which causes both a pull on its own pin and a push on a stop pin. I think that's the best distribution of forces in a locking knife we've ever heard of, hence the reputation of the Tri-Ad Lock.

I think you might want to take a look of the diagram of the lock again. Positive blade forces hit the stop pin and only the stop pin in all of these designs. If the blade is horizontal and pointing left, a positive blade force is going to make the blade turn clockwise. The lock bar has a lip that prevents the blade from moving counter clockwise, but not clockwise.

The fact that the stop pin was dented on the Benchmade and not the Lawman says one thing to me. You can decide what it means to you. A stop pin, is a stop pin, is a stop pin. The Benchmade looks to have a larger diameter stop pin which means that it should be even harder to deform since it has more mass behind the contact area.

I will not point out a couple things I saw in the videos right now, but I feel sorry for the guy who paid good money for the knives. They never had a chance. In the end, the videos are fun to watch, but I personally still think the other locks are roughly equals until there is more evidence.

 

[singularity35]

Of course we have to judge by your "use" scale.

Your use constitutes gross abuse of the knife, not hard use.

Ok, I don't just want my knife to be able to take hard use. I want it to be able to take gross abuse.

 

[Buffalohump]

Then buy a fixed blade.

Ok, I don't just want my knife to be able to take hard use. I want it to be able to take gross abuse.

 

[singularity35]

Then buy a fixed blade.

Nope, not an option. I carry a thin bladed low angle bevel slicer but I also carry a "hard use" folder. It would be a great comfort to me, as well as personally satisfying for it to be able to handle what the AL did with aplomb. I am getting an AL but I don't know if I'll like it. My "hard use" EDC is the one I train with and seems to be part of my hand. Is it too much to dream and hope(without being told to get a fixed blade) that it be as bulletproof as they sell it to be?

 

[boef800]

I think you might want to take a look of the diagram of the lock again. Positive blade forces hit the stop pin and only the stop pin in all of these designs. If the blade is horizontal and pointing left, a positive blade force is going to make the blade turn clockwise. The lock bar has a lip that prevents the blade from moving counter clockwise, but not clockwise.

The fact that the stop pin was dented on the Benchmade and not the Lawman says one thing to me. You can decide what it means to you. A stop pin, is a stop pin, is a stop pin. The Benchmade looks to have a larger diameter stop pin which means that it should be even harder to deform since it has more mass behind the contact area.

I will not point out a couple things I saw in the videos right now, but I feel sorry for the guy who paid good money for the knives. They never had a chance. In the end, the videos are fun to watch, but I personally still think the other locks are roughly equals until there is more evidence.

I'm with you (I think) regarding the couple things you saw in the video.
Even though I've got to say that I'm not quite sure if it may be just my impression and not implying here it was intentionally done by Ankerson.I mean the good man isn't a robot,right?But to me it looked as if the spine wacks were a bit harder on the BM and the Manix compared to the Lawman video.And the torquing at the exits of the cuts and over all force of the cuts in the "heavy duty" whittling part in the beginning of the videos was in a different league especially in the Manix vid.Am I alone here?
But I think the undented stop pin of the Lawman could possible be explained by the curved form of the contact area of it's blade tang.Don't you think so?

 

[Ankerson]

I'm with you (I think) regarding the couple things you saw in the video.
Even though I've got to say that I'm not quite sure if it may be just my impression and not implying here it was intentionally done by Ankerson.I mean the good man isn't a robot,right?But to me it looked as if the spine wacks were a bit harder on the BM and the Manix compared to the Lawman video.And the torquing at the exits of the cuts and over all force of the cuts in the "heavy duty" whittling part in the beginning of the videos was in a different league especially in the Manix vid.Am I alone here?
But I think the undented stop pin of the Lawman could possible be explained by the curved form of the contact area of it's blade tang.Don't you think so?

I actually hit the Lawman harder durning the spine whacks than both the Benchmade and the Manix.

I also pried harder with the Lawman than the other 2 as it turned out, the other 2 felt like they were going to snap so I backed off on them.

I also snapped out the Lawman torquing the blade.

The Lawman bit deeper in the 2x4 and log than the other 2 so I was stressing the blade more when prying.

So what ever you were thinking it really was the opposite.

 

[Josh K]

Ok, I don't just want my knife to be able to take hard use. I want it to be able to take gross abuse.

Then you don't understand what folders are for.

Then buy a fixed blade.

+1.

Nope, not an option. I carry a thin bladed low angle bevel slicer but I also carry a "hard use" folder. It would be a great comfort to me, as well as personally satisfying for it to be able to handle what the AL did with aplomb. I am getting an AL but I don't know if I'll like it. My "hard use" EDC is the one I train with and seems to be part of my hand. Is it too much to dream and hope(without being told to get a fixed blade) that it be as bulletproof as they sell it to be?

Why is a fixed blade not an option? Want bulletproof, that's it. Yes it's too much to dream and hope that a knife designed to fold in half will be as strong as a fixed blade.

They don't sell the Manix 2 as bullet proof, nor do they sell the Grip as a replacement for the fixed grip.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I'm with you (I think) regarding the couple things you saw in the video.
Even though I've got to say that I'm not quite sure if it may be just my impression and not implying here it was intentionally done by Ankerson.I mean the good man isn't a robot,right?But to me it looked as if the spine wacks were a bit harder on the BM and the Manix compared to the Lawman video.And the torquing at the exits of the cuts and over all force of the cuts in the "heavy duty" whittling part in the beginning of the videos was in a different league especially in the Manix vid.Am I alone here?
But I think the undented stop pin of the Lawman could possible be explained by the curved form of the contact area of it's blade tang.Don't you think so?

Since you pointed them out I will go ahead and comment. Like you mentioned the Benchmade and Spyderco were both twisted out during the cutting of the wood. The Lawman didn't get the same torque put on it. This also explains the early horizontal play especially on a brand new knife that hasn't had time to 'seat' itself. I can't measure how hard the spine whacks, over strikes, and batoning was but some do look harder especially the Benchmade over strikes. Also, the prying with the tip looked biased. The Lawman was only pried a couple times in the log and each time the wood moved easily. The one time it didn't want to move, the blade wasn't pushed but moved to a new spot. The Benchmade looked like it was pried with quite a few more times and when the wood didn't budge, it was pushed harder until it did.

 

[Ankerson]

Then you don't understand what folders are for.



+1.



Why is a fixed blade not an option? Want bulletproof, that's it. Yes it's too much to dream and hope that a knife designed to fold in half will be as strong as a fixed blade.

They don't sell the Manix 2 as bullet proof, nor do they sell the Grip as a replacement for the fixed grip.

I agree, don't repeat what I did unless you are in a situation that you need to use a folder in that way. All I showed was a hard use test, I am not saying go out and abuse your knives.

 

[Franciscomv]

I've never been a huge fan of CS and their tests. I do own a few of their products that seemed like a good tool at a good price, and are holding up just fine (American Lawman, old VG-1 Voyager, Scimitar and Camillus made Master Hunter).

I like the American Lawman a lot, it's a very useful design with a hell of a lock. I'd buy more Triad-Lock knives if they made them in the US or Japan (I know country of origin doesn't dictate quality, it's just a pet peeve of mine) with something better than AUS8 (sure, it's good enough, but I want better than that).

I'm also a pretty big Spyderco fanboy, and the Manix 2 lock failure really surprised me. I thought it would hold up better. I like the design a lot, so much so that I bought a couple of sprint models to keep my regular Manix 2 company. Still, I think the M2 doesn't even come close to the good old Manix, or what I consider to be Spyderco's greatest knife ever: the Mini-Manix (love it to death).

I don't care that the AL outperformed the M2 in these tests, neither does the broken tip worry me too much (the knife still functions), it's the broken lock that sort of worries me. I know I won't be spine whacking bears to death with my pocket knife, but I expected more from a knife that's marketed as "one of the strongest knives from Spyderco to date".