SPYDERCO MANIX2 S110V - rope test & Epic Fail !

calc said:
To be fair, there is a limit to this. For example, I find that I can take low carbide steels (e.g., 1095) to steeper angles than high carbide steels (e.g., D2) while still maintaining edge stability, it's just that the same edge retention isn't there. I wonder if S110V is far enough on the high end of the spectrum that 15 DPS is about the lowest you can go. It sounds like mvh saw this limit as well.



I saw that performance for you increased with a microbevel - did you ever try reprofiling the primary bevel to that angle and not applying a secondary?
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I use CPM S110V in the kitchen everyday at 10 DPS and it's under .005" behind the edge and 65 HRC and it does fine...
 
spketch said:
But 40 degrees inclusive is too obtuse. In the thread linked to by Ankerson he explained that its all about geometry. A major selling point of these supersteels is that they can be taken to a more acute edge angle while retaining edge stability. Take it to 30 degrees and compare it to a flat ground manix with another steel.

The crkt ripple is a hollow ground 2.5mm thick blade. Its nonsense to directly compare that to the full flat ground 3.2mm blade of the manix.

If you want your results to mean anything you need fewer variables, preferably only one. Otherwise your results are meaningless.
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Too obtuse for what? I agree it's most likely more than needed, but who knows. I run EDC blades like that because they get used for stuff that requires it.

That's a pretty idealistic view of testing and variables. Few experiments are that clean or straight forward.
 
calc said:
To be fair, there is a limit to this. For example, I find that I can take low carbide steels (e.g., 1095) to steeper angles than high carbide steels (e.g., D2) while still maintaining edge stability, it's just that the same edge retention isn't there. I wonder if S110V is far enough on the high end of the spectrum that 15 DPS is about the lowest you can go. It sounds like mvh saw this limit as well.
Click to expand...


Ordinary D2 does not offer a fair comparison to powder steels like S110V, which are able to carry a much higher load of wear-resistant carbides, such as vanadium, because the powder process reduces the size of carbides and distributes them far more evenly than can be done with traditional ingot steels. Try to put the carbide load of S110V into ingot 1095, and your blade will suffer, probably by breaking.

High-carbide powder steels such as S110V offer a real advantage. They may not be as tough as simple carbon steels or low-alloy steels, but they can carry a large carbide load effectively, while supporting an acute edge geometry and a stabile edge (stable meaning toughness and strength) while offering much higher wear resistance than a comparable ingot steel. Look at the acute blade geometries used by the cutting championships, where M4 powder is a top steel.

But what we have in this thread is a collection of contradictory posts:

S110V lacks wear resistance; and S110V has super wear resistance

S110V lacks toughness (chipping from even minor tasks like cutting a cardboard box); and S110V can cut up yard after yard of cardboard and split wood and whittle with high lateral stresses and not chip at all. We even have a post in another thread where S110V in a ZT660 run at a soft 59 Rc chipped.

S110V lacks strength (rolls after cutting up one cardboard box); and S110V can be profiled to an extremely acute geometry (0.005 inch edge shoulder width) and suffer no damage.


I don't know exactly what is going on, but I tested my Mule pretty hard, and it has a very acute blade geometry.

Our responses should not be about personalities, just facts the best we can determine.
 
me2 said:
Too obtuse for what? I agree it's most likely more than needed, but who knows. I run EDC blades like that because they get used for stuff that requires it.

That's a pretty idealistic view of testing and variables. Few experiments are that clean or straight forward.
Click to expand...

Too obtuse to reveal the steel's full potential, apparently. I have no personal experience with s110v and I just freehand my edges, but I put a lot of stock in Jim's results.

True, real world experiments are rarely so simple, but the comparison between the two knives mentioned really isn't valid.
 
Ankerson said:
I use CPM S110V in the kitchen everyday at 10 DPS and it's under .005" behind the edge and 65 HRC and it does fine...
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And I don't doubt you, especially given that use case. But in my experience, whenever I lower the angle on a high carbide steel, I sometimes have to follow up with a microbevel. I typically haven't had to do that with low carbide steels. Of course, the latter doesn't match the former in edge retention even when this is the case, but that's just been my experience.

Granted, that experience is rather limited (S30V, M390/204P/20CV, ZDP, M4), and this is typically at <30 degrees inclusive and anywhere from 800 to 1800 grit, so my baseline is a smaller one. But to be clear, I'm not saying that S110V is brittle. I'm just playing devil's advocate and asking why "high carbide/high wear resistance" automatically means "high edge stability", and if we have to readjust our expectations and/or assumptions of S110V and other steels like it.

I've never had the opportunity to use S110V, so obviously this is speculation, which is why I was simply mentioning my personal experience with other steels. But again, I'm just trying to be clear on a few assumptions that are being made because I'm curious.

Twindog said:
Ordinary D2 does not offer a fair comparison to powder steels like S110V
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I'm aware, I was just giving an example of the concept with two steels I have experience with.
 
calc said:
And I don't doubt you, especially given that use case. But in my experience, whenever I lower the angle on a high carbide steel, I sometimes have to follow up with a microbevel. I typically haven't had to do that with low carbide steels. Of course, the latter doesn't match the former in edge retention even when this is the case, but that's just been my experience.

Granted, that experience is rather limited (S30V, M390/204P/20CV, ZDP, M4), and this is typically at <30 degrees inclusive and anywhere from 800 to 1800 grit, so my baseline is a smaller one. But to be clear, I'm not saying that S110V is brittle. I'm just playing devil's advocate and asking why "high carbide/high wear resistance" automatically means "high edge stability", and if we have to readjust our expectations and/or assumptions of S110V and other steels like it.

I've never had the opportunity to use S110V, so obviously this is speculation, which is why I was simply mentioning my personal experience with other steels. But again, I'm just trying to be clear on a few assumptions that are being made because I'm curious.



I'm aware, I was just giving an example of the concept with two steels I have experience with.
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HT, tempering, HRC hardness, blade and edge geometry, and edge finish all can and will impact performance.

One has to match the Edge geometry and and edge finish to the job at hand just as with any other steel.

There aren't any 100% absolutes when talking about steels and knives.
 
calc said:
And I don't doubt you, especially given that use case. But in my experience, whenever I lower the angle on a high carbide steel, I sometimes have to follow up with a microbevel. I typically haven't had to do that with low carbide steels. Of course, the latter doesn't match the former in edge retention even when this is the case, but that's just been my experience.

Granted, that experience is rather limited (S30V, M390/204P/20CV, ZDP, M4), and this is typically at <30 degrees inclusive and anywhere from 800 to 1800 grit, so my baseline is a smaller one. But to be clear, I'm not saying that S110V is brittle. I'm just playing devil's advocate and asking why "high carbide/high wear resistance" automatically means "high edge stability", and if we have to readjust our expectations and/or assumptions of S110V and other steels like it.

I've never had the opportunity to use S110V, so obviously this is speculation, which is why I was simply mentioning my personal experience with other steels. But again, I'm just trying to be clear on a few assumptions that are being made because I'm curious.



I'm aware, I was just giving an example of the concept with two steels I have experience with.
Click to expand...

I'll go ahead and say that S110V is brittle. I'll also say brittle is a relative term in most cases, so you have to know what it's being compared to at the time. In the grand scheme of steels used for knives, it is brittle. However, that scheme includes things from 1055 all the way to Rex 121.

High carbide/high wear resistance doesn't mean high edge stability. Just the right amount of carbide along with proper heat treatment of the steel means high edge stability.
 
me2 said:
What does acute mean on your Mule?
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I tested it stock, which was with an edge geometry that was not acute: 42 degrees inclusive. (The edge was 18/24 dps, with a very well done point.)

But the blade geometry was acute, which is what I referred to: The width of the edge shoulders was 0.0175, which is pretty acute for a factory knife. Nice geometry. Full flat grind. Both blade geometry and edge geometry, as well as sharpness, affect how well a blade will cut through media.

That's what I meant.
 
spketch said:
Too obtuse to reveal the steel's full potential, apparently. I have no personal experience with s110v and I just freehand my edges, but I put a lot of stock in Jim's results.

True, real world experiments are rarely so simple, but the comparison between the two knives mentioned really isn't valid.
Click to expand...

Thinner edges cut longer. Steel type doesn't matter until the point is reached that the edge starts to just collapse. Edge angle indeed has a large influence on edge holding. However, if they are being run at the same angle, they can be compared. They can be compared at different angles, as long as that's described. It just depends on what you're looking for in the comparison.
 
To the original tester in this thread: have you tried cutting the edge off to a depth of say 1/64" or so, to see if maybe there was damaged material at just the very edge?
 
spketch said:
But 40 degrees inclusive is too obtuse. In the thread linked to by Ankerson he explained that its all about geometry. A major selling point of these supersteels is that they can be taken to a more acute edge angle while retaining edge stability. Take it to 30 degrees and compare it to a flat ground manix with another steel.

The crkt ripple is a hollow ground 2.5mm thick blade. Its nonsense to directly compare that to the full flat ground 3.2mm blade of the manix.

If you want your results to mean anything you need fewer variables, preferably only one. Otherwise your results are meaningless.
Click to expand...
I know that sharpening at 30 degrees may rise result twice, comparing to 40.
As for manix. It was sharpened at 30 for first test. Then 40. Kindly watch the test.
 
Well, this is a video of the S110V Mule Team sharpened at 15 DPS and 400 Grit....

That's S110V at 60 HRC (Tested)

[video=youtube;iY5g93EJcuU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY5g93EJcuU&list=UUD_n6Vfcqptslco-gt6WL5g[/video]
 
tolikzt10 said:
I know that sharpening at 30 degrees may rise result twice, comparing to 40.
As for manix. It was sharpened at 30 for first test. Then 40. Kindly watch the test.
Click to expand...

My apologies. Those are strange results indeed.
Thanks for taking the time to perform these tests. I wonder what's going on here.

This thread has me wanting an s110v manix even more now...
 
Spyderco CPM S110V....

Top to bottom:

Manix 2 LW

Forum Knife, Native 5

MT-18

DSC_4667.JPG
[/IMG]
 
Ankerson said:
Well, this is a video of the S110V Mule Team sharpened at 15 DPS and 400 Grit....

That's S110V at 60 HRC (Tested)
Click to expand...

So you're clearly not seeing these issues.

Can the OP give us a more detailed rundown of their sharpening process?
 
spketch said:
My apologies. Those are strange results indeed.
Thanks for taking the time to perform these tests. I wonder what's going on here.

This thread has me wanting an s110v manix even more now...
Click to expand...
I will appreciate your testing and opinion.
Kindly let me know.
I suppose, that the blade was treated and then grinded at the factory. The grinding after heat treatment caused overheating and damaged the structure...
Just my opinion .
 
Ankerson said:
Well, this is a video of the S110V Mule Team sharpened at 15 DPS and 400 Grit....

That's S110V at 60 HRC (Tested)

[video=youtube;iY5g93EJcuU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY5g93EJcuU&list=UUD_n6Vfcqptslco-gt6WL5g[/video]
Click to expand...
But the talk is of Manix 2 cpm s 110 v. ... another knife- another result... Forum knives differ from usual.
 
tolikzt10 said:
But the talk is of Manix 2 cpm s 110 v. ... another knife- another result... Forum knives differ from usual.
Click to expand...

Didn't get around to doing a video on the Manix 2 before the regrind so it would also be different. ;)

So you would have to go by the link to my testing on that one..

Actually the MT-18 in S110V performed lower than the LW Manix 2 in S110v....

The MT also had a lower HRC... 60 vs 62.5 for the Manix 2...
 
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