Steel Junky's - need opinions

What the point to have it made out of well known steel like D2, 52100, 51600 etc?
There are so many unknown steels which are very promicing but nobody trying to made knives out of it because market is uncertain. But by this test run you have certain customers which will accept new steels because they are Steel Junkyes. As a steel junkie I have already almost any steel used for production or limitet editions including CPM S90V by Microtesh, SRS15 by G-Sakai, Russian 110X18MShD, Aogamy, CPM 3V by Fehrman etc... I even have different types of Bulat by Ivan Kirpichev.

My major interest is new unknown steel like

YXR7 - matrix low carbon HighSpeed steel which composition Hitachi keeps as a secret.
CPM 15V - close by it's properties to abrasive itself by Crucible
ZDP247...

What is new about D2? However SRS15 which is pumped up D2 - is really interesting to test on same blade etc.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I think it would be beneficial to have the same knife design in both familiar and 'new' steels. Geometry of course plays a considerable role in cutting performance, so if you have the exact same knife in different steels, you are homing in on what difference the steel itself makes.
 
nozh2002 said:
What the point to have it made out of well known steel like D2, 52100, 51600 etc?
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With the amount of confusion there is between the properties of even the most widely available steels, I think the answer is obvious. I want to be able to make more informed decisions on my knife purchases. Trying out unknown or rare steels is fun, but not as useful as common steels.
 
I'd be in for a 13C26 and/or 12C27 blades with a grind as thin as one dared to make it in a knife blade. Maybe even some daringly thin stainless damascus using 13C26 and some other steel to combine the best of both. Now that would be very interesting.

D2 I'm familar with since it is one of my favorite steels but wouldn't turn down. 52100 is not all that common in my opinion and not something everyone can or even wants to mess with from what I've gathered about it and heat treating correctly so anyone doing it right is sure welcome to send one or more blades my way if and when they become available for me to buy.

STR
 
Sure some well known steel need to be present for comparison reason but IMHO program should be focused on new steel, to find one wich better not to find how one average steel is compared to other average steel. I do not really care how much better 440A over 420, AUS6 over AUS4.

What I am looking for as a Steel Junky is perfect steel - not one wich has better price-performance rate, which is according to Buck 420HC and it is hard to argue this with market share they have. If in result we will know that X1 is 5% more wear resistant that Y2 - so what? Will it make easy to chose between Military with CPM S30V and other Military with same CPM S30V? It is not really available as well for many other models for many other manufacturers.

But with ZDP189 test runs starting with Caly Jr. - and I remember Sal announcing it as a run just to make it familiar for us, it finally turn out to be very good steel and now it is widely available - Endura and Delica in full production! But before only folders available with ZDP189 cost $500! As it is still with YXR7.

So I think trying new steel will make really impact on knife bussiness. Sure 10 old confusion may be resolved by this program, but I think it does not worse Spyderco to run such a project to resolve old questions which are old because nobody really care!

On different topic - Sal, do you think it will make it mre fare to allow other manufacturers to join your effort? It may be standartized knife shape so someone else can also provide their testknives with their propritary HT and everything to make it available? I think it will be good to allow such thing and you may be standart holder or something...

I do not know how this thing work in your bussiness, can somebody replicate your blade? Or may be you may provide blueprints for everybody and check does it met when someone else make same blade?

I think steel manufacturers may be interesting in this - Crusible, Hiachi etc...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I for the most part think like nozh. I’m mostly hoping for rare and unused steels for this project. However, for the first one steel like 52100 is a very good one and will provide a base line for the carbon steel side. I’d think the second run would probably be some type of stainless for a base line as well. Then the more rare and uncommon steels would be tried.
 
Guys, just a suggestion. Let Sal make a run or two with something familiar and see if these things sell. I would really hate to see him make 500 pieces of an exotic, expensive steel and sell 20 of the run. I suspect it would be the only run, since I know I'd scrap the whole project if it launched by losing 50 grand on the first try. If you want new and untried steel, make sure the first run in whatever Sal decides on sells out in eight minutes ;)
 
5 years ago, how exotic was S30V; how exotic will zdp189 be in another 5? ATS34 was 'the' stainless not that long ago, now no one cares much for it. Talonite is a rare metal in blades, but it has poor characteristics. Or how about the sintered Ti/ceramic mix Boker introduced that was almost universally panned. While, yes, the ubiquitous 420HC heat treated by Paul Bos continues to be a good performer without breaking 'new' ground.

I think this project should be to evaluate steels irrespective of the marketing. As nozh said, zdp used to be $500, but has the performance of it changed just because it's now available in $70 folders?

What we can get with this project is a much better assessment of each steel, because it will not be affected by differing geometries or different company policies on quality control. One knife design, from one manufacturer, and the steels themselves make the difference. How much better is YXR7 than 440A? You can't say absolutely unless they are both used in nearly identical knives. Well, we can get them both in the same knife, if Sal wants to make it happen.

And from that, we can then come back to the nuts and boltrs of pricing and market share. If we, as individual consumers, actually make an apples to apples comparison, we can then decide what knives are most worth our money, or if we're being fed snake oil about some great 'new' steel.
 
Well you should consider time in equasion. It sounds like why to bother with new hot (today) steels while in some feauture we will have jedy-laser-sword? ZDP-189 happen to be not so exotic only because Sal made that Caly Jr. run! He did not done same for YXR7 - second one I was asking reffering to Roakstead who really make this two steels available in folders http://www.rockstead.jp

In result YXR7 is still exotic, but ZDP189 is not exotic but popular and anybody can benefit it and not only Spyderco but Kershaw also. So now I know two very good steel SRS15 and YXR7 - both already in use in knife production in Japan. SRS15 is actually introduced in big knife by G-Sakai - as I understand big partner if not only partner of Spyderco, it is very possible that G-Sakai actually making ZDP knives for Spyderco. I hope they SRS15 or YXR7 (or better some dream steel made by different producer) may be discovered by this program and that will make them not exotic.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I'm in agreement with Vassili on this one. There are steels out there being overlooked due to the nature of the industry. YXR7 was on my list for Japanese steels, as was SRS15. That doesn't rule out common steels like 13C26 which has been around, but run well below it's capabilities. Too many common steels and people will lose interest though. We're not working on a dissertation, but a commodity that must sell to make it worthwhile to Spyderco to keep the program going. Knowledge gained is good, but lets not fool ourselves about what has to pay the bills.

That being said, my choices of steel, like F2 or F8 likely won't make the list. Not many people have even heard of them. I'll live with it and enjoy the steels that are selected.

I also think there's no getting around Spyderco needing to make a run or two with steels they already use to help "Tool up" , and develop the processeses they need. Even 4 new steels a year is a tremendous amount of work. Regards, Joe
 
Actually, you are all correct, in my opinion.

Exotic steels become less exotic when there is more of it around. CPM-440V was exotic when we brought it out in the Military 10 years ago. Same with ZDP recently.

Using the steels in a model like the Calypso jr also pesents its problems; "I don't like that model", "I'm not going to use it, I'm going to collect it", Dealers and ditributors run distribution, "my screw has a burr on it", etc.

I cannot say for sure that this program will fly. That's why I'd like to begin with something like 52100 that most have heard of, but not used (Vassili is an exception). Let's get the car on the road, and then steer it.

Vassili, I don't think steels like SRS15 are in production. G.Sakai makes a few samples and gets them into the marketplace or in magazines as a market test, not a production run. Much as we did with the Calpyso jr., but he uses much smaller quantities. If you were to order 500 pcs, I believe you will wait for a while to get them.

Steel foundries do not make a batch and wait to see who buys them. They make a few pounds for some companies to test and wait for the 1,000+ lb orders. If you want SRS15, or Cowry, I have to order the steel, see if they'll make a 500 or 600 lb test, wait for them to make it, and them proceed.

I also appreciate the concern for Spyderco's well being. We are a small company also trying to survive among the giants...like a squirrel darting between the legs of the elk.

Hi Vassili,

Some of the steel makers have already contacted me expressing interest in getting involved in the project. I guess it is an opportunity to get their particular steel into the market. With that in mind, it may be possible to use many of the rare and exotic steels. I cannot do them all at once. Limitations being the size of our company, plus the fact that I have a "day job", that also takes time.

Regarding other knife manufacturers, we have very little influence on what they do. There is really no way to "protect" the pattern or the "idea". We see copies of our ideas and designs everyday and we receive no benefit from these copies. Sad, but true. We can trademark the name "MuleTeam", but if a bigger company decides to go after our project, there is little we can do.

I do not want the responsibility of trying to monitor or coordinate different manufactuers. It will be difficult enough just to deal with the foundries.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
I don't think steels like SRS15 are in production.
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Tosa's Artisan line of cutlery uses SRS-15 and G. Sakai sells a bowie-style knife (looks like a Cold Steel Trailmaster) with SRS-15. It's not leaping into cargo hulls for immediate worldwide delivery, but it is a step or two past being a complete shut-in.
 
nozh2002 said:
SRS15 is actually introduced in big knife by G-Sakai - as I understand big partner if not only partner of Spyderco
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Spyderco's also partnered with Moki. If a Japanese-made Spyderco brand folding pocket knife looks perfect with the exception of no left-hand carry option, Moki might of made it.
 
The Mastiff said:
I'm in agreement with Vassili on this one. There are steels out there being overlooked due to the nature of the industry. YXR7 was on my list for Japanese steels, as was SRS15. That doesn't rule out common steels like 13C26 which has been around, but run well below it's capabilities. Too many common steels and people will lose interest though. We're not working on a dissertation, but a commodity that must sell to make it worthwhile to Spyderco to keep the program going. Knowledge gained is good, but lets not fool ourselves about what has to pay the bills.
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I actually kind of see it the other way. The steels being overlooked (by the knuts) are the old & common. People would lose interest if nothing new was presented, but people may also lose interest if each run was a new high wear resistance exotic that cost more than they're willing to spend or they couldn't sharpen. And as mentioned in this thread, some people really just like the looks of the mule, and I think some would want one just to have as a user in the collection, not to evaluate against other models. They might have a favorite steel already, or be apprehensive in trying something new. Neither D2 nor S30V are exotics today, but I think this little blade would do well enough if it were offered in those steels.

I dunno, I'm still thinking in the same aspect I was when I brought up 52100. I wanted Sal to use that one because it's being used in another Spyderco model coming soon. Dunno if this was similar to Sal's thinking, just my take on it. I also want some of the more common steels to be used so the people participating can have a really good look at what Spyderco uses. And from that, others can read the results and say "Hey, I don't have to wait for the perfect steel, xyz does just fine from Spyderco. I'll go ahead and give them my money today." Sal then gets to reduce inventory twice just a hair quicker-once for the mule, and again for the existing models using the same steel. Nobody wants inventory ;).

But I of course want new stuff from Spyderco in this. I want new steels, and I want steels run harder, but I also think I need something to compare them to directly. I am dead serious when I say I would like one in 420J2. Why? I want to ask the same question we do of other steels-How good is it? I know a lot of people think the answer is obvious, but I want to see what this steel really does in direct comparison. The steel wouldn't sell, unless people wanted to use the mules as throwers/letter openers/paper weights/disposable defense blades.

But, once again, this is just a point of discussion, not any kind of demands on my part. I just really appreciate Sal going through with this, in any way that it happens.
 
Remember, I too wish to try all of the exotics.

The "idea" was to come up with a way; that "similar model, different steel" is the best way to compare.

I first picked the Calypso jr. but we ran into other problems that I didn't want to deal with on a steel project. Also learned that the maker making the calypso jr cannot/does not work with all of the foundries. No one maker does.

Certainly not everyone will be interested in every steel. I would prefer they do get used. "Teachers that are locked into rooms by themselves cannot teach". But I also must admit that I will probably keep a "new" set.

The "simple" project has a better chance to endure and therefore a better chance to get into as many "exotics" as possible. I'm sure Devin would make a batch of Damask for us. We could probably talk Ed into a run of san mai Schemppus. Heck, maybe Al Pendray will cook up 500 lbs of Wootz.

Thee really isn't a way to do the project, the project is the project. As long as it's breathing, unobtanium and salium can be done.

I have to make it through "Mule Team 1". I picked 52100 based on input from the thread and my own resources.

You can pick the next 3.

sal
 
52100 sounds great.....my only (sortuv) taste of 52100 has been Scrapyard's Street Scrapper 4 with Infi purchased recently.....heck its my only taste of INFI ever......and as I don't use my knives in extreme situations.....I'll never be able to discern differences in steel qualities in my applications....440c is plenty good for me! But it's the intellectual curiosity and the engineering mindset that is turning me into a noob steelhead....:D
I guess I bank away the most info on different steels primarily when I'm sharpening/stropping my knives..... :)
 
I'd love to get a taste of the exotics. I don't want to exclude any new steels, my wish is that none of the steels gets excluded. I'd like to have em all :D Of course, if there are going to be limitations on the number of steels used, testing the new ones at the forefront is the most enticing.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Steel foundries do not make a batch and wait to see who buys them. They make a few pounds for some companies to test and wait for the 1,000+ lb orders.
.. .
Some of the steel makers have already contacted me expressing interest in getting involved in the project. I guess it is an opportunity to get their particular
steel into the market.
Click to expand...
That sounds like a perfect way to approach the steel companies to get involved with this project. IF I was Devin, Ed, Al, and or any of the other specialty steel makers or heat treaters, I’d jump on this fast. Can you think of a better way to get your product out and talked about than this?
 
Sal Glesser said:
Regarding other knife manufacturers, we have very little influence on what they do. There is really no way to "protect" the pattern or the "idea". We see copies of our ideas and designs everyday and we receive no benefit from these copies. Sad, but true. We can trademark the name "MuleTeam", but if a bigger company decides to go after our project, there is little we can do.

I do not want the responsibility of trying to monitor or coordinate different manufactuers. It will be difficult enough just to deal with the foundries.

sal
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I am refering to what is going on in computer industry when some company hold standart like Java or Unix and make sure that other mit that standard (making money on this not on the product itself). I am not sure of course is it applicable in this bussiness are there critical mass of money etc...

But look - you may end up with situation when steel producers will send you complete knives and you just check that they complay this standart, put your stamp on it plus take care of distribution... If they already show their interest. Just my two cents

Thanks, Vassili.

BTW, SRS15 used by Fallkniven and also in many other kitchen knives as a core in laminated blades...
 
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