strider

[Dalko]

Chiro75,

Paul has a brochure with details:
http://www.buckknives.com/downloads/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

Where/how did you get the up-to-dated Paul Bos brochure?

I had the last one only.

Thanks

 

[Cliff Stamp]

He seems to be fairly responsive to emails, try dropping him a line.

-Cliff

 

[conan]

CPMS30V was specifically developed for the cutlery business and was developed to be a tough stainless. It is a fact that the CPM process itself improves the mechanical properties of steel, especially toughness. To say that ATS34 or 154CM are even close to CPMS30V in the area of toughness does not compute. These are all very good stainless steels but the CPM process and the addition of Vanadium to CPMS30V make all the difference. This is fact.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It is a fact that the CPM process itself improves the mechanical properties of steel, especially toughness.

There are lots of very fragile CPM steels, and yes they even contain vanadium. I have broken CPM-S30V by impact and bending, it isn't significantly tougher impact wise or more ductile than ATS-34. Nor in fact has any maker made such a comparison and guaranteed such performance.

-Cliff

 

[R.W.Clark]

Just another moronic statement from Cliff the resident windbag.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Just another moronic statement from Cliff the resident windbag.

Why don't you offer evidence to the contrary then? Or do you feel that personal attacks speak louder than facts? The more people attack Cliff, the more I am tend to believe what he says, so thanks for giving me added confidence in what Cliff says!

 

[R.W.Clark]

That is typical of a Cliff worshiper. "well since he isn't liked, I will like him". I don't understand you people.

So you want me to bring out all the Charpy and Catra charts from all the differant test facilities, all the knife companies that have run their own tests, all the makers such as Hossom, Strider, Simonich, Mayo, Carson, Rinaldi, myself etal who have done their own cutting tests?

How about YOU use the search function and see what MAKERS are saying about S30V. We would not be using this material if we felt that is was not better. Or you can take the word of some student from Newfoundland who fakes test results and tells lies about good companies.

Cliff may play games with his testing and reviews but we do not play games with our knives because, unlike anything that Cliff does, lives depend on our work.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Cliff may play games with his testing and reviews but we do not play games with our knives because, unlike anything that Cliff does, lives depend on our work.

That sentence says it all!

 

[brownshoe]

RW Clark. As a moderator, you should really stay off the personal attacks, or you should resign as moderator. Calling Mr. Stamp a fraud and a moron is certainly beyond the rules of decorum for this forum. Shame on you. If you don't like Mr. Stamp, ignore him. If you have specific factual comments to refute him, do so, but do it as a gentleman not as a cad.

As a word of warning, since you used your own name, this is a public forum, and you're comments are in writing, you could also be sued for libel.

 

[Chiro75]

I'm not a lawyer and I've never played one on TV, but I believe that libel only applies to false comments that have a proven effect on one's liveliehood/ability to do business. But I could be wrong.

 

[tknife]

Any threads with Strider in the title will get Cliff in there putting them down and personal attacks on Mick Strider. Is that libelous? Mr. Clark is an excellent custom maker, who like most other custom makers is offended by the "tests" the Cliff does. If you are impressed by his "testing" that's great, but because others are not, there's no need to attack them either.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... personal attacks on Mick Strider.

Such as?

So you want me to bring out all the Charpy and Catra charts from all the differant test facilities, all the knife companies that have run their own tests, all the makers such as Hossom, Strider, Simonich, Mayo, Carson, Rinaldi, myself etal who have done their own cutting tests?

Yes, and show how such data supports the statement that S30V is significantly tougher and more ductile than ATS-34. Now make a public statement that you guarantee such performance in your knives, specifically stating the level of inferiority in the other blades I mentioned.

Catra and cutting tests are not a good indication of this by the way. Cutting tests are just dependent on geometry not the steel, CATRA would show edge retention and be influenced by geometry, hardness, and wear resistance. No one is arguing you can't make a S30V blade cut, or that it would out perform ATS-34 on a CATRA test.

Not all makers feel that S30V is significantly tougher than ATS-34 either or is some kind of revolution in that department. Some have publically stated it isn't. Here is a question for you and all the names you dropped. Do you guarantee your S30V is significantly tougher and more ductile than the S30V being used by Spyderco, Swamp Rat, R.J. Martin and Phil Wilson to name a few.

As for makers being just interested in performance and not using materials because they are popular - are people in the states really this gullible? Come on, is there anyone who will actually publically state they believe this to be really true besides Clark?

RW Clark. As a moderator, you should really stay off the personal attacks.

If he didn't he would not have anything to say. As a note of interest, how long do you think I would be permitted to post on Bladeforums if I responded to such posts with similar.

The goal of such posts is to do exactly this, cause an emotional flame war, when you can't deal with the arguement try to cause a smokescreen, or better yet drive the person away.

There are three favorable outcomes :

1) he actually convinces people just by the power of names he dropped

2) I am so intimidated because he called me a name I run and hide

3) I respond in kind

Only the first one is likely to happen.

-Cliff

 

[Dalko]

RW Clark. As a moderator, you should really stay off the personal attacks, or you should resign as moderator. Calling Mr. Stamp a fraud and a moron is certainly beyond the rules of decorum for this forum. Shame on you. If you don't like Mr. Stamp, ignore him. If you have specific factual comments to refute him, do so, but do it as a gentleman not as a cad.

As a word of warning, since you used your own name, this is a public forum, and you're comments are in writing, you could also be sued for libel.

VERY, VERY WELL SAID.

 

[Dalko]

If he didn't he would not have anything to say.

EVEN BETTER!!! Thumbs up!

 

[tknife]

What some of us forget, is that we are not knife makers. Calling out a knifemaker on a public forum is the same as me showing up to your place of business and telling your boss you do a lousy job. It's the same as taking away money to pay the rent and put food on the table. Maybe there is a better way to settle these issues. Ever think this is why makers get so angry at you? I sure would.
On the same note, without rehashing the Cliff vs. Mick debate, how about another example? Car makers crash test their cars all the time. They use their findings to make a better product. If you crash tested a car, should the maker send you a new one for free? Would you gain any knowledge by doing so?
If there is a problem with S30V, shouldn't you be attacking Crucible, not just the makers who use the steel?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If there is a problem with S30V, shouldn't you be attacking Crucible, not just the makers who use the steel?

It isn't an attack to point out performance issues, or lack thereof, and I have talked with people who work for and with Crucible, both in email and on the forum with similar issues.

How about defending your statements, point out where I attacked Mick on the forums. You said I do it all the time in any thread which mentions Strider so you should have no problem turning up quotes.

-Cliff

 

[Dalko]

It isn't an attack to point out performance issues, or lack thereof, and I have said the same things to crucible, I have talked with people who work for and with them, both in email and on the forum.

-Cliff

Hey Cliff, what did Crucible staff/metallurgists answer you about the weaknesses of S30V you pointed out?

Have you discussed about 3V too?

 

[SteelDriver]

It measures one aspect of heat treating, the required hardness, it doesn't check for the vast array of properties that can effect performance and are not caught by hardness checks which is why makers like Phil Wilson and the higher end production companies do lots of others tests.

These then insure a much higher guarantee on performance than a HRC check, though that of course is much better than nothing and would catch a lot of the lemons that pass through and get into the hands of the customer.

What other tests specifically? How do you know Paul Bos doesn't do these other tests? Do you know the full testing and QC regimen for Phil Wilson, Paul Bos, and "the higher end production companies"?

As for letting makers decide standards of testing on their products, that is really not logical. There is a reason why independent bodies do this kind of thing. Anyone who relied simply on HRC tests for QC is only testing a small fraction of performance.

You're missing my point. Once a reproducible, quality HT schedule has been established (with plenty of testing), what is the point of doing destruction tests, etc. when HRC is an acceptable measure of consistency (where did I say performance)? In a large HT operation once oven temps, quench rates, etc. are all dialed in and within tolerances, all you really need is to spot check the HT in each batch. Some heat treaters go further and check the HRC of every piece, and I imagine some include scrap steel to break afterwards to examine grain.

As far as makers setting test standards for their own products, you accept the tests Busse has done, yet you now claim this is illogical? Independent bodies (such as Consumer Reports) are useful, but they also must be impartial and produce verifiable, reproducible results. I find little of this in your own reviews. Neither have you submitted the knives you made to independent bodies for review.

As for the Raven test, I discussed that here publically when Rob was alive as it was being used to promote the extreme toughness of S30V for awhile, there are a couple of problems with it which are *GENERAL* issues I have noted elsewhere, including comments on past reviews I have done in the updates :

1) bending a knife in wood is problematic for flex tests because the wood bends and thus how much of the bend is the wood and how much is the knife. I bent a Voyager to 90 degrees in wood, does this mean it is flexible - it would not come near this in a vice. You could easily bend any knife to 90 if the wood was soft enough.
...
If the arguement was that this was showing the ability of S30V, the advancement that this steel allowed, then use an ATS-34 Raven along side the S30V one and show how the performance had improved. Without a benchmark it is difficult to judge the performance.

You never pointed out these *GENERAL* issues in that thread, because Rob was clear about what he did. As for bending the knife, Rob provided plenty of detail:

For the stump thing, I started by driving the tip in the top of the hardwood stump about and inch and pulling it out sideways, then 1 1/2" then 2" etc till at about 3 inches I couldnt pry it out sideways. The blade took about a 2 degree set. Ill try to get a picture of it that shows the bent portion.
...
I was braced and pulling as hard as my romping stomping 145 pounds of pure raw muscle and sinew could muster! I dont know how many degrees of flex I was pulling the knife, but I feel it was one of the stiffest knives I had ever done that with. I have done that with carbon steel blades of similar geometry and they flex easier.

This was not soft wood, and Rob compares it to carbon steel blades, not ATS-34. He provided references. You perform the same kind of tests in your reviews. If you don't accept Rob's tests, why should anyone accept yours?

2) impact work and chopping depends on effort and method, I have chopped 3.5" nails with a Deerhunter (very slim knife), by cutting gently and taking care for the impacts to be perpendicular, get sloppy or fast and the edge buckles and loses huge chips. You need to use other knives for benchmarks and have some way to measure impact strength such as number of hits to cut the tension bar and amount of concrete removed on the chopping.
...
I cut tension bar with a few knives after this came out, I could break some stainless blades if I hit them fast, or cut it if I went slow. With some really tough blades I could go all out and cut it in under 6 hits with no problems.

Again, Rob provides details of his impact work, in reply to your inquiry as a matter of fact:

Cliff, I used full power swings with a 2 pound hammer to cut the bar, took about 10 swings.
...
The reason I cut the steel bar was, well, to see if the knife would do it! The knife wasnt damaged that I or Jerry Fisk could see hammering it through the chain link fence, and the steel was laying there sowhy not. It was my intention to take the knife to destruction anyway. The bar was laying flat on the stump, nothing underneath it. I think this is about as abusive as you can be with a knife, you have steel on the bottom, hardened steel in the middle, and hardened steel doing the hammering. The shockwaves traveling through the middle piece, (knife) have to be horrendous.

Rob was clearly not holding back when he hammered the Raven through that tension bar. He does not give specifics on the concrete chopping, but it is reasonable to assume that he did not go light and easy with that test either.

You need references, some way to have perspective. Just like if I said I cut a 2x4 in 20 seconds with a 10" bowie, is this impressive or not. Well it depends on the wood, it is pretty sad if it is fresh clear pine, lightning fast if it is a piece of ironwood.

Ironically, you profess the need for references yet you reject Rob's review, which is full of them. Rob Simonich, Terrill Hoffman, and Jerry Fisk (among others) witnessed these tests in person. Were these individuals deceived somehow, or unimpressed with the work (as you are)? How many people have seen your testing? You reference your own reviews often, yet how do any of us know that what you describe as soft, clear wood isn't hard and knotty? How do we know how much force you use to chop concrete, or that it is concrete and not cinder block? Rob clearly demonstrated what S30V in a 7" combat knife geometry can do. It seems far different than the "brittle" ATS-34 and S30V you have used. The guarantee is solid as well:

Simonich Knives LLC Guarantee
All Simonich Knives come with an Unconditional Lifetime Guarantee.
Simonich Knives LLC reserves the right to repair, replace or refund the purchase price at out discretion.

But then again, you're only interested in guaranteed superior performance. I suppose you'll only be testing knives from a single company, then. :yawn:

 

[tknife]

It isn't an attack to point out performance issues, or lack thereof, and I have talked with people who work for and with Crucible, both in email and on the forum with similar issues.

How about defending your statements, point out where I attacked Mick on the forums. You said I do it all the time in any thread which mentions Strider so you should have no problem turning up quotes.

-Cliff

I agree, I cannot say that you have personally attacked him in every thread. And there is no way I would go through and try and pick out quotes of this. But, threads that mention Strider seem to bring you in railing against their knives. Can you deny that by slighting the product he makes at every chance you get is not really an attack? Everyone on this forum knows that you are not a Strider fan, maybe it can just be left at that?
I can see how makers get angry and frustrated trying to make a point with you.

 

[srtungate]

"Car makers crash test their cars all the time. They use their findings to make a better product. " Automobiles also had 15 mile per hour rated bumpers, the auto industry lowered the standard to 5 mph. I believe the insurance companies rate crash tests. anyway, not defending anyone but, I dont trust industry to rate or police itself, the goal is profit. What do I know, I'm just a grunt who uses the product, I've broken every blade on the market. My only point is YOU PEOPLE ARE FUNNY!