Sunken pins

yatsunil

yatsunil

Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
680
Hi guys, pardon the newbie question. I've noticed on a lot of the pics posted in this forum that the pins securing the covers on traditional knives are sunken or recessed from the surface of the covers. This is even evident on the higher end GEC Northfield knives. Is this normal? Also the degree of recess is not consistent on both covers and also across individual units of the same model. Is this a sign of poor workmanship? The reason I'm asking is because I can only buy my knives online without the chance to handle them and I only have the photos posted by the dealers to work on. I don't want to have to order a knife from halfway around the world only to need to send it back due to poor quality control. Thanks for your help!

Linus
 
hi Linus.
I feel your pain regarding online ordering-not sure where you reside but I'm betting its not as far from The nearest GEC dealer than me.:p
As for sunken /recessed pins I'm not sure why they are like that.
Personally I don't associate GEC ,Northfield or Tidioute knives with poor workmanship-quite the opposite in fact.
I now own more than 20 of them in many shapes ,sizes and handle materials
(mostly bone, some woods,and micarta and a mammoth ivory although no stag -thats a different kettle of fish for online customers such as us.).
That figure will increase without doubt which is by far the scariest thing about these beautifully made knives.
I've purchased from several of the dealers on the GEC site and the worst aspect is the outlandish discrepancy in postage costs among them -some being costly and some being very costly.
A minor thing when all is said and done.
I have no doubt that if you contacted any of them with specific demands they would do their utmost to accommodate you. If and this is a BIG IFthere was a problem with the knife due manufacture fault and had somehow slipped thru the net I feel sure that it would be graciously rectified .
Old saying that I think covers it-"measure twice cut once".
 
meako said:
hi Linus.
I feel your pain regarding online ordering-not sure where you reside but I'm betting its not as far from The nearest GEC dealer than me.:p
As for sunken /recessed pins I'm not sure why they are like that.
Personally I don't associate GEC ,Northfield or Tidioute knives with poor workmanship-quite the opposite in fact.
I now own more than 20 of them in many shapes ,sizes and handle materials
(mostly bone, some woods,and micarta and a mammoth ivory although no stag -thats a different kettle of fish for online customers such as us.).
That figure will increase without doubt which is by far the scariest thing about these beautifully made knives.
I've purchased from several of the dealers on the GEC site and the worst aspect is the outlandish discrepancy in postage costs among them -some being costly and some being very costly.
A minor thing when all is said and done.
I have no doubt that if you contacted any of them with specific demands they would do their utmost to accommodate you. If and this is a BIG IFthere was a problem with the knife due manufacture fault and had somehow slipped thru the net I feel sure that it would be graciously rectified .
Old saying that I think covers it-"measure twice cut once".
Click to expand...

Hi meako. I see you're from NSW Australia. Well I'm in Singapore. So depending on which direction the crow flies, it's a close call who is further from the dealers in the US :)

Please do not be mistaken that I'm associating GECs with poor workmanship - I'm not. It's just that I see these sunken pins and I was wondering if this is a generally accepted "flaw" in traditional knives. If all the pins in every knife were like that then I'd be ok with it. But it's not consistent across brands or models.

I agree 100% about the postage costs. I've only found two dealers with somewhat reasonable international shipping. And it's always a long wait for the item to arrive. For those dealers that do not provide international shipping, I use a third party shipping service that provides me with a US shipping address. Not as convenient as direct shipping and it adds to the waiting time.

I'm also pretty sure that the dealers will rectify any manufacturing faults - I just don't want to go through the hassle of sending the knife back and waiting again for a replacement or warranty claim.

After all that, I'm actually glad that it's not so easy to buy a knife here in Singapore. If it were as easy as walking into a shop and picking up what I wanted - I'd be broke all the time :D
 
I live in NSW Australia too and have never had trouble or disappointment with the fit and finish of GEC knives.

Also, I am not sure if you mean how the pins vary from sunken to polished flat on each knife. As part of the making of these the ones on the spring side get ground flush while the one behind the bolster and under the nail nick are recessed. I am not able to explain this better or tell you exactly why they are different. However the difference is consistent and does not detract from the fit and finish of the knife.

Cheers. Richard
 
RelaxedCat said:
I live in NSW Australia too and have never had trouble or disappointment with the fit and finish of GEC knives.

Also, I am not sure if you mean how the pins vary from sunken to polished flat on each knife. As part of the making of these the ones on the spring side get ground flush while the one behind the bolster and under the nail nick are recessed. I am not able to explain this better or tell you exactly why they are different. However the difference is consistent and does not detract from the fit and finish of the knife.

Cheers. Richard
Click to expand...

Hi Richard. Ah so it is consistent! And part of the manufacturing process. Thanks for the explanation. I thought the difference between flushed and recessed pins was completely random. My mistake.
 
First let me say, IMO along with many others GEC knives are the best built traditional slip joints on earth. Don't get me started on their sunk pins because IMO there is virtually no reason for it. In stag OK to a point but even then some of the holes you can plant a flower in. Even their Ebony and other exotic wood have wells for the pins YET their cotton sampler is Perfectly flush with the scale surface. I have 15 asst GEC knives and love most of them but I'd have a lot more it their pins were flush. All I have to say is WHY.

THAT being said, GEC Will fix any knife you are unhappy with.
Best regards

Robin
Perfectly flush pins.

The pin with the flower is holding maybe 25% of the pin in the scale.
 
Ok I admit it you are further than me. At least we are further than those mangy kiwis.
Now I'm wondering also if the sunken pin could be an inherent weakness for the scale to liner connection and if it would be stronger were they flush.
 
Ok I admit it you are further than me. At least we are further than those mangy kiwis.
Now I'm wondering also if the sunken pin could be an inherent weakness for the scale to liner connection and if it would be stronger were they flush. Food for thought.
Certainly never had one that I would consider inferior in way.
cheers.
 
I'm glad to see this mentioned as I've wondered with the obvious quality GEC puts into their product it's curious why pins aren't installed with over-height heads and sanded flush with the rest of the scales. Obviously this can't be done with scales that are installed with no sanding as is stag, jigged bone and maybe some others. Maybe in order to deliver standard pin install all are left counter-bored and recessed. But I know I much prefer the flush pin look the Boker Congress Carver has.

It's a nit and not a reason to pass on GEC knives as I am a huge fan.
 
A very unsatisfactory condition for an otherwise outstanding knife. Back spring pin done correctly, why this situation with the nails?

large.jpg
 
Quick explanation in this thread.

As to why the backspring pin is different than the cover pins - the backspring pin goes completely thru the knife and cannot already have one end flattened or cut to length. Thus it is placed thru the knife as bar stock and peened/buffed. The cover pins are specially made stock at specific lengths.
 
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knifeswapper said:
Quick explanation in this thread.

As to why the backspring pin is different than the cover pins - the backspring pin goes completely thru the knife and cannot already have one end flattened or cut to length. Thus it is placed thru the knife as bar stock and peened/buffed. The cover pins are specially made stock at specific lengths.
Click to expand...

That is a good explanation Mike, and quite what I expected, but it does not excuse. Sorry, that is how I feel about it.
 
Hm, this is something that really just doesn't bother me, especially on a production knife like a GEC. I'm already impressed with the quality we're getting at this price and, honestly, I think fretting over things of this degree should be left to super high end productions (Case x Bose for example) or customs. Just my oppinion. For a $100 knife GEC give me all I could ever expect for the money.

I had to go look at my ebony #15 to see if the pins were sunken (they are) as I had never really noticed.
 
slide13 said:
Hm, this is something that really just doesn't bother me, especially on a production knife like a GEC. I'm already impressed with the quality we're getting at this price and, honestly, I think fretting over things of this degree should be left to super high end productions (Case x Bose for example) or customs. Just my oppinion. For a $100 knife GEC give me all I could ever expect for the money.

I had to go look at my ebony #15 to see if the pins were sunken (they are) as I had never really noticed.
Click to expand...

This is not a $100 knife but more like a $150+ knife but that really does not matter. The point is corners are being cut that should not be. I would think that if they use CNC type machinery to do some of these tasks then they could figure out the proper length of pins and make adjustments as necessary. If the 'cover pins' are pre-made to a specific length then they should be pre-made to the proper length and the pockets/ holes etc. should be made to the proper dimensions. When machinery today is capable of holding .00005 or even better there really is no excuse. Bottom line, if you can get the back spring pins correct you can get the other nails correct without that much effort. Show me one other manufacturer that gets this aspect as wrong as GEC on such a consistent basis. All IMHO.

I am not expecting perfection but really.....
 
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I've never spent much time noticing this detail. I looked at a few knives and this one jumped out at me. This stag Case/Bose WT has sunken pins. Since the stag is smooth at the pin locations, I'm sure these could have been finished flush. It really doesn't bother me though.

DSC05455r.jpg
 
Sunken pins make no difference to me, especially on a factory knife. Maybe it would be an issue to me on a custom, but I doubt it. I just isn't something I notice or care about.
 
ptradeco said:
This is not a $100 knife but more like a $150+ knife but that really does not matter. The point is corners are being cut that should not be. I would think that if they use CNC type machinery to do some of these tasks then they could figure out the proper length of pins and make adjustments as necessary. If the 'cover pins' are pre-made to a specific length then they should be pre-made to the proper length and the pockets/ holes etc. should be made to the proper dimensions. When machinery today is capable of holding .00005 or even better there really is no excuse. Bottom line, if you can get the back spring pins correct you can get the other nails correct without that much effort. Show me one other manufacturer that gets this aspect as wrong as GEC on such a consistent basis. All IMHO.

I am not expecting perfection but really.....
Click to expand...

I am in total agreement with you Brad - it is a detail in a production knife that was not overlooked in the old days and is today. What really bothers me is why the old knives had much smaller rivet heads and why a new Case XX (and to be fair - many other brands) center pin rivet head is about twice the diameter of the old knives I have. Those old knives held up just fine and the many I have would counter any argument of rivet strength. I see it as attention to detail and I even see it on a Case/Bose, but, not on a true Bose and not on most other custom makers. I hope this is not off-topic, but, I have long seen it as a missed detail and most of us accept it without questioning it. :yawn:

The smaller rivet heads make for an over-all much more beautiful knife and the custom makers definitely pay attention to same.

As far as the sunken rivets, most all new smooth handled standard production Cases will have flush rivets at every point. :)
 
I too have total disdain for 'recessed' pins. My take on it is, and I'm probably wrong, GEC is trying to do 'component' manufacturing to some extent by pre cutting pins to an average size. After purchasing some GECs over a period of time, I received one with deeply recessed pins sitting in bored out cups. I immedieatly noticed this just unwrapping the wax paper. I kept the knife as GECs are the cream of the crop IMO but when looking to add some more GECs to my bunch I look right at the pins and in the last year or so I havn't pulled the trigger on a single GEC. My preference on pins is actually domed but flush is good too on smooth handles. And as an aside, I would like some more offerings from them with 2 blades. Mr Bohn-KSF, what say yee?
 
This is interesting, I was curious about this as well. It makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint as the pins for the covers are installed at a different step in the process than the one that goes though the back spring. I have noticed that on customs, the pins are usually flush, which does look nicer.
 
knarfeng said:
Sunken pins make no difference to me, especially on a factory knife. Maybe it would be an issue to me on a custom, but I doubt it. I just isn't something I notice or care about.
Click to expand...

I agree with Frank. It's an aesthetic detail which simply doesn't bother me at all, and with no impact on function. Which isn't to say that aesthetics aren't something I pay attention to on my traditional knives, just that this particular detail isn't one that has ever affected my appreciation of a knife.
 
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