Sunken pins

Vinifera said:
The one thing that interests me is the many posts throughout this forum about the fit and finish of a GEC knife vs. other manufacturers. Same with youtube reviewers who routinely praise GEC for a knife which is head and shoulders above other production knives primarily because of fit and finish. The sunken pins in all fairness are not great fit and finish especially when you consider reviewers and others praising bolster to handle transitions, flush back springs, etc. I guess I'm sort of confused why all these other fit and finish issues are so highly appreciated and lauded but pins are exempt from any criticism. Whatever.
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Right! Selective vision perhaps? Or not wanting to think that a flaw can be a flaw on such an exulted knife? :rolleyes::D
 
I think when they have the market practically to themselves (higher end production) and are selling, often in days, entire runs - there is a tendency to both accept, excuse and not look for changes. Personally the sunken pins bug the heck out of aesthetically, especially when you can have sunken, domed and flush all on the same knife. They are also annoying as they collect lint, dirt and often food and are difficult to clean and almost impossible to polish. You can flitz up your knife really well and end up with flush pins all shiny, domed pins shiny just at the top and a hole full of blue flitz in the sunken pin that you end up poking with a toothpick to try to clean out. My Queen knives don't have this problem. All the pins perfectly flush. Queen, the people with the QC problems seem to manage this.

The following is my personal opinion only. That of someone who only ever carried slipjoints.

I don't buy it. GEC are at the top of the market because the market that once was is practically dead. They are selling to collectors and a tiny worldwide market of users, us. I find their knives often overpriced and artificially hard to buy. Their insistence of metal choice driven by collectors and nostalgia rather than usage. I really hope the Euro Barlow will spur a new age of modern user slipjoints so that we too can have the choice of F&F, metals, quality and price that the rest of the knife world is used to but has become very difficult to find where the emphasis seems to be more on the 'traditional' than on the 'knife'.
 
Pomsbz said:
I think when they have the market practically to themselves (higher end production) and are selling, often in days, entire runs - there is a tendency to both accept, excuse and not look for changes. Personally the sunken pins bug the heck out of aesthetically, especially when you can have sunken, domed and flush all on the same knife. They are also annoying as they collect lint, dirt and often food and are difficult to clean and almost impossible to polish. You can flitz up your knife really well and end up with flush pins all shiny, domed pins shiny just at the top and a hole full of blue flitz in the sunken pin that you end up poking with a toothpick to try to clean out. My Queen knives don't have this problem. All the pins perfectly flush. Queen, the people with the QC problems seem to manage this.

The following is my personal opinion only. That of someone who only ever carried slipjoints.

I don't buy it. GEC are at the top of the market because the market that once was is practically dead. They are selling to collectors and a tiny worldwide market of users, us. I find their knives often overpriced and artificially hard to buy. Their insistence of metal choice driven by collectors and nostalgia rather than usage. I really hope the Euro Barlow will spur a new age of modern user slipjoints so that we too can have the choice of F&F, metals, quality and price that the rest of the knife world is used to but has become very difficult to find where the emphasis seems to be more on the 'traditional' than on the 'knife'.
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+1 :thumbup:
 
I had another novel typed, but have decided to simplify this response as it had little to do with sunken pins.

Much as in every other market, lifestyle, belief, etc. there is no shortage of opinions. Most are only a portion accurate, at best. By the vast majority those reading this post have their own opinion in hand and realize what an opinion is worth in the wild. Yes, even mine, which are gold plated ;)
 
I appreciate your taking the time to type all of that out, Mike. I have seen the first and third methods performed. Funny thing is, the second method sounds a lot like what I saw the worker at Queen doing, and I just didn't recognize the difference between that and the first method. I know that you've said that Queen, Case, and GEC use the third method, and I can only comment on what I saw. Anyways, I appreciate this conversation as I have learned a lot, and I know that any time a business owner takes a stance on a product that they carry it makes them vulnerable to losing business. i appreciate your willingness to put yourself out there, and will do some more research based on what you've said.
 
knifeswapper said:
I had another novel typed, but have decided to simplify this response as it had little to do with sunken pins.

Much as in every other market, lifestyle, belief, etc. there is no shortage of opinions. Most are only a portion accurate, at best. By the vast majority those reading this post have their own opinion in hand and realize what an opinion is worth in the wild. Yes, even mine, which are gold plated ;)
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Mike, I agree to an extent. Yet, our whole world, or society, is built on the bottle neck of opinions. Opinions of the collective form data that can be measured and quantified. Cultural norms, laws, traditions all started as an idea, a personal opinion. Opinions matter at the macro level and are often brushed aside at the micro. Those whose opinions don't match the given popular idea are often pushed to the fringe. Stigma, bias, all built on opinion.

It is the projection of one individual opinion as truth that is worthless. Yet the given popular opinion does not mean it is correct or right.

For example I believe in an absolute truth. Yet, I believe in all is relative to knives 😉

Sorry for the dive into the deep end 😜
 
From my own noob prospective - having been in the appreciation of traditional folding pocket knives for only a couple years now - I view the recessed pins in a "that's the way some of them are" kind of way. No real like or dislike for me. :cool:

What I have started to gravitate to on some of GEC's offerings is the omission of that top cover pin altogether, such as is done on the TC Barlows. I think I've seen a few pictures of other GEC's made this way as well. I'm sure that the top cover pin adds strength and ensures that the cover stays flat, but the result is a cleaner look - at least on smaller knives - to me, anyways. Is the placement of this pin a recommendation based on needing support every so many 16ths of an inch, say, kind of like a floor underlay being nailed down at 6" intervals?
 
Interesting discussion :) For better or worse, all the remaining Sheffield manufacturers just use brass wire, seems to work OK :thumbup:



 
Cory Hess said:
I appreciate your taking the time to type all of that out, Mike. I have seen the first and third methods performed. Funny thing is, the second method sounds a lot like what I saw the worker at Queen doing, and I just didn't recognize the difference between that and the first method. I know that you've said that Queen, Case, and GEC use the third method, and I can only comment on what I saw. Anyways, I appreciate this conversation as I have learned a lot, and I know that any time a business owner takes a stance on a product that they carry it makes them vulnerable to losing business. i appreciate your willingness to put yourself out there, and will do some more research based on what you've said.
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Actually I think Queen has used method 2; at least at some time in the past.
 
My #72 in green micarta has two sunken pins and the main pin for the spring (forgive my newbness) actually pokes out on both sides. The sunken pins dont bother me one bit as its rather uniform for both pins and side to side but the protruding pins are a bit of a snag so I sanded them down every so lightly and polished it back up to look like new. Oddly enough, one side it starting to poke out again after a couple days so Ill knock it back again here soon. Not enough of an issue to cause me to dislike the knife in any way tho, just an observation.

Matt
 
Opinion = Sunken pins are ugly.
Opinion = Flush pins are nicer looking.
Fact = Sunken pins make it impossible to shine up your pins and they collect dust, dirt and Flitz.
Fact= Flush pins can be shined and do not collect dust, dirt and Flitz.
Fact? = Sunken pins are cost savings in production and cost savings in warranty repair for covers cracked by poorly installed pins?

So is the last bit a fact? If it's not a fact, it's not an opinion but just false.
 
Some queen facility knifes with flush pins display a fair amount of non-symmetrical mushrooming when buffed down smooth. If you know where to look at trestle pine knives you can see many example of this. I am not here to pile on queen, as I own many and enjoy them, but it should be noted their ability to produce flush pins is not without flaw and cannot be deemed superior to other brands.

We, the consumer, need to judge aesthetics for ourselves individually. Some care more than others. How that equates to which brand does things better and how value will be upheld in the future is a fruitless debate.
 
jrawk said:
Some queen facility knifes with flush pins display a fair amount of non-symmetrical mushrooming when buffed down smooth. If you know where to look at trestle pine knives you can see many example of this. I am not here to pile on queen, as I own many and enjoy them, but it should be noted their ability to produce flush pins is not without flaw and cannot be deemed superior to other brands.
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I have noticed this myself. It seems to happen most with the backspring pin. On my Queen knives at least, almost every backspring pin that is sanded flush is asymmetrical. This is something I had meant to bring up as a question months ago and never got around to. I wondered why that particular pin is susceptible to being shaped a little wonky. Going off of Mike's three methods it makes sense, because the cover pins aren't really pins and are instead nails or rivets whereas the backspring pins are actually pins that are peened and then sanded. Good observation, and thanks for bringing it up.
 
Many makers spin the backspring pin and this means it does not require peening. I think these you are speaking of are just flared by some method on the surface and them buffed down. This is one factory that understands we do like our flush pins :D
 
For sure, I actually watched that happen. I should have said spun, not peened. It's a pretty cool idea. I'm always amazed by people that have the ability to think outside of the box like that.
 
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