Sunken pins

OK....it looks like I opened a real can of worms here :)
I guess there's no solution to it. Sunken pins exist...whether it be on a budget Rough Rider, mid-priced Case or high end GEC....
And I just gotta learn to live with it.
 
I'm fortunate that I'm just not all that picky, but recessed pins don't bother me.

On the other hand, I do like a nice set of slightly domed pins, which both look and feel good, and add a special something to any knife.
Older (2008 and earlier) GECs do seem to have these beautiful domed pins. Here are a couple examples:

BrimMoosePile_zpsae3b3d85.jpg~original

73jackAfter_zps6d89e4c1.jpg~original
 
I thought I had said enough on this topic but I would like to add a couple of points:

I collect old Sheffield knives, for example, and these knives being shown with sunken pins would have been summarily rejected by these makers. They would have never seen a customers hands. Okay, apples and oranges maybe. But when the historical record is examined in a 100 or more years from now where do you think collectors will place GEC, for example. Others are guilty as well. I think they will not be kind. All aspects of production efficiencies and cost controls aside, how hard or costly would it really be to get this detail right.

If you subscribe to point number one, then you should not let them off the hook. After all, as said many times in this forum, if you the end user accept it then why should they change. This thread makes me think we have become too accepting of flaws and the producers will push this as far as they can.
 
I notice sunken pins but I'm new to collecting traditionals. Maybe it doesn't matter but it does enhance aesthetics to have pins flush. It's part of F&F as far as I'm concerned.
 
Personally, I'd shell out a couple extra bucks for flush or domed pins if that's what was needed for the manufacturer to trouble themselves. Pins that are deeply recessed stand out like a sore thumb to my eyes, especially when the rest of the knife is near perfection. It doesn't stop me from using and enjoying a knife, but if I had my druthers... :)

-Brett
 
I agree with Brad on this 100%

Flush or domed pins LOOK better FEEL better and ARE better. In aesthetics, it sets a knife apart if it is carefully presented . Some of my GECs, as I've written elsewhere...have had such hideous exaggerated sink-holes that I've been obliged to fill them with brass rod and finish them off myself. I really would prefer not to have to do this. But what do I know, I'm a mere consumer and collector? I don't want to collaborate with saying it's OK when to me it's not.

When and where others feel differently, fine for them.
 
I would love to see flush pins, no pin cracks from the stress of peening them, no slabs that have come loose and show light between them and the liner, and no unsightly smashed pins.

Instead of starting some new threads: I would also appreciate perfectly centered blades, no blade rub, slabs that always perfectly meet the bolster, no blade play, perfectly polished blades, no sharp edges (other than the one made to cut with), perfectly matched slabs (color and texture), a perfect 7 pull, a back spine so tight you can't tell where the liner/backspring/opened blade starts and the other one stops, smooth as silk opening, and my version of a perfect factory edge. And don't even think about a price increase, because if they can do it overseas - we can do it here.

These American cutlery factories do not fool me by going out of business, they are making money hand over fist and laughing at the dealers/users/collectors all the way to the bank.

I am not the official factory apologist; I just think many times we have tunnel vision when it comes to considering all aspects of the decisions made. But, by all means, if you feel something should be done another way - you should voice your opinion. Otherwise, there are many entities in this world that will surely do the least amount possible without an uprising.

As for me, I am going to contact the aforementioned Sheffield cutlery factories and try and carry their superior products. Could I get some contact information for the ones still in business? :D (just kidding)
 
ptradeco said:
This thread makes me think we have become too accepting of flaws and the producers will push this as far as they can.
Click to expand...

That statement is true only if this cosmetic detail is
1) something that is noticeable to the individual.
2) worth the price increase associated with changing it. And it would be a price increase. Custom sizing each pin to be fit the non-uniform surface of jigged bone or stag would be very pricey.

Personally, as long as they aren't proud, the pins make no difference to me.
And I'm already out of my comfort zone with the current price of GEC's. I buy maybe one a year.

As Mike stated so much better than I, it's a balancing act on the part of the existing knife companies to determine what they can do at a price point which will provide them a customer base and keep them in business.
 
The one thing that does bother me the most is that most of my older GECs do have flush/domed pins, and the newer ones, which have about a 30% price increase over the older ones, do not.
 
I don't mind recessed pins with an irregular material such as stag, but on smooth covers the pins should be flush. They just look better. For example -



Recessed pins on smooth handles bother me enough that I have withheld from buying a couple of knives that have them. Were it not for that particular detail I would have added an ebony Viper and a smooth bone Boy's Knife to the stable.

black mamba said:
On the other hand, I do like a nice set of slightly domed pins, which both look and feel good, and add a special something to any knife.
Click to expand...

I agree about the domed pins.

- Christian
 
Well, I guess I'd like if they were flush on smooth or at least not sunken on non-smooth covers but it doesn't bother me all that much, especially to not buy a knife with such. With regards to GECs, it looks like the fourth pin, opposite the backspring pin, is the biggest offender. Most of the ones I really carry and use (the #48 and #33) only have 3 pins so its just not an issue.

ptradeco said:
A very unsatisfactory condition for an otherwise outstanding knife. Back spring pin done correctly, why this situation with the nails?

large.jpg
Click to expand...

ptradeco said:
This is not a $100 knife but more like a $150+ knife but that really does not matter. The point is corners are being cut that should not be. I would think that if they use CNC type machinery to do some of these tasks then they could figure out the proper length of pins and make adjustments as necessary. If the 'cover pins' are pre-made to a specific length then they should be pre-made to the proper length and the pockets/ holes etc. should be made to the proper dimensions. When machinery today is capable of holding .00005 or even better there really is no excuse. Bottom line, if you can get the back spring pins correct you can get the other nails correct without that much effort. Show me one other manufacturer that gets this aspect as wrong as GEC on such a consistent basis. All IMHO.

I am not expecting perfection but really.....
Click to expand...

That knife was a SFO with a limited supply of that cover material and number made, serialized, and came with extras. GEC's version is closer to $100 and under for most cover materials. But like you said, it doesn't really matter and I agree it would have been even better if totally flush. But it didn't stop me from buying one in Rosewood or Stag sight unseen.
 
I won't order GECs that I can't send back for little to no cost to me anymore. Got two out of two with major flaws. I'm not talking about pins, but major up and down play in a lockback, and deep scratches, a big step from backspring to blade spine and bent blade in a single blade slipjoint.

GEC offered me to send them the knives on my own cost. But that's not worth it to me, considering shipping costs and customs and tax hassles.
 
I have to agree with knifeswapper... A small percentage of customers willing to pay extra for such minute details does not keep a company in business. Not everyone who buys pocket knives are collectors that want a perfect knife and the people out there who just want to buy a nice USA made knife (maybe one knife every couple years or more) that they can carry and use everyday are probably not willing to pay that extra let alone hand out the money most GEC's cost to begin with.

So yes companies like Queen, Case and GEC COULD do everything to please the customers that want...

knifeswapper said:
I would love to see flush pins, no pin cracks from the stress of peening them, no slabs that have come loose and show light between them and the liner, and no unsightly smashed pins.

Instead of starting some new threads: I would also appreciate perfectly centered blades, no blade rub, slabs that always perfectly meet the bolster, no blade play, perfectly polished blades, no sharp edges (other than the one made to cut with), perfectly matched slabs (color and texture), a perfect 7 pull, a back spine so tight you can't tell where the liner/backspring/opened blade starts and the other one stops, smooth as silk opening, and my version of a perfect factory edge. And don't even think about a price increase, because if they can do it overseas - we can do it here.
Click to expand...

And in doing so would vastly narrow their customer bases....but if your not going to make a perfect knife then why make one at all. I know I'd rather not have any knives to choose from than ones with pins that aren't all flush.
knifeswapper said:
:) (just kidding)
Click to expand...
 
Is this more of an issue with new manufactured knives?

I collect a lot more older knives between 50-100 years old, believe it or not I find them cheaper than a GEC knife new but then again I'm feeling with older knives so I tend to be less critical especially when I'm only spending between $5-$20 per knife.

Funny thing the older Case, Camillus, Robeson to name a few tended to be more consistent in F&F. That being said, to the guys collecting older knives do you find the pins to be an issue?
 
GEC knives are arguably the highest quality and most expensive PRODUCTION knife currently made anywhere in the world. I appreciate the ones I have handled very much. But the recessed pins are a problem. I have handled a lot of knives in the last few years. Knives from most time frames, from many points of origin, junky ones, superb ones, expensive and inexpensive, and the pin problem is, in a word, rare. Except for GEC, where it is common. And unacceptable. If nobody else in the last 150 years has the problem, then GEC doesn’t need to tolerate it either. There is something in their manufacturing protocol that causes this, and it can be changed. And I am not accepting the supposition that it will cost them a lot of money, which cost will be passed on to the buyer. I assume that this thread will be noticed by the company, and I would not be surprised if we see some welcome changes. JMO.
 
I would rather the pins below the scale than above it.

Its not an issue for me. As long as the handles are secure there are other aspects of the knife that are more important to me.
 
tongueriver said:
GEC knives are arguably the highest quality and most expensive PRODUCTION knife currently made anywhere in the world. I appreciate the ones I have handled very much. But the recessed pins are a problem. I have handled a lot of knives in the last few years. Knives from most time frames, from many points of origin, junky ones, superb ones, expensive and inexpensive, and the pin problem is, in a word, rare. Except for GEC, where it is common. And unacceptable. If nobody else in the last 150 years has the problem, then GEC doesn’t need to tolerate it either. There is something in their manufacturing protocol that causes this, and it can be changed. And I am not accepting the supposition that it will cost them a lot of money, which cost will be passed on to the buyer. I assume that this thread will be noticed by the company, and I would not be surprised if we see some welcome changes. JMO.
Click to expand...


This is truth!
 
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