Sunken pins

[Modoc ED]

I don't particularly like sunken pins but they are an advantage in one cover material if you are buying a knife sight unseen - Stag. Normally, if I see a stag covered knife with deep sunken pins it's a pretty good indication that the covers most likely will be especially fat in the center.

 

[300Bucks]

You guys have beat this horse pretty well, so I ask these questions now. HOW, do these recess pins occur ? Basically, how does the machine that puts it in work and is operated ? If you go to a knife store and get out five GEC's of the same model are some higher or lower or all the same ?

I was told by a Cami factory person that the domed scale pins are a hollow tipped pin that the machine presses out the pin edges (before the knife is assembled as a unit by the blade(s) hinge and sping pins) , sort of like a doughnut, flat against the liner. Can you guys see down in the blade well what it looks like ? I will try to get a close up of Bucks domed rivets to show if I have a wide enough blade well.

300

 

[Modoc ED]

 

[knifeswapper]

The pins are a set length with a domed top and a hollow bottom (just at the tip). The hole for the pin is drilled and then the liner/cover are set down and essentially a plunge router drops to a set depth and drills out anything it hits to that depth from the top. The pin is dropped in from the top and with some pressure on the top the hollow end is spread on the inside of the liner.

So, to answer your question (I think) - the cover pins are all the same distance from the top of the dome to the back of the liner; just the slab thickness varies. But you don't have to spin the top, which puts a lot of pressure on the slab itself. And you don't have to snip/peen the backside, which again, puts a lot of pressure on the slab from the front (where pressure must be applied as you peen).

Having done it many times, it is not that much work to put the pin stock into the hole and snip it to length (when doing one knife at a time). But when spreading both sides there is a lot of opportunities for pin cracks. Makers that still snip the pin and peen both ends, from my experience, have 10 to 1 more pin cracks on cover pins.

This is my understanding of how it works.

 

[blademan 13]

I don't particularly like sunken pins but they are an advantage in one cover material if you are buying a knife sight unseen - Stag. Normally, if I see a stag covered knife with deep sunken pins it's a pretty good indication that the covers most likely will be especially fat in the center.

Spot on. While I would prefer them flush I never really look at them unless I am buying stag. Great way to judge thickness.

 

[buendia518]

Nevermind.

 

[knarfeng]

Is this more of an issue with new manufactured knives?

I collect a lot more older knives between 50-100 years old, believe it or not I find them cheaper than a GEC knife new but then again I'm feeling with older knives so I tend to be less critical especially when I'm only spending between $5-$20 per knife.

Funny thing the older Case, Camillus, Robeson to name a few tended to be more consistent in F&F. That being said, to the guys collecting older knives do you find the pins to be an issue?

50-100 years ago labor was cheap. An extra few minutes didn't cost much. Today, the fully burdened labor rate (includes costs of keeping the factory running plus the pay rate.) is over $100/hr for most factory type businesses. So, if you add 15 minutes to the time to build a knife, you just added $25 to its cost. And that's the cost, not the price. The price goes up more.

 

[jc57]

Case must use a different manufacturing process since the ones I own don't tend to have sunken pins, nor do they cost a lot more because of it. *shrug*

 

[jkulysses]

Case must use a different manufacturing process since the ones I own don't tend to have sunken pins, nor do they cost a lot more because of it. *shrug*

They probably make up for it with the glued in shields & much more mechanized assembly line.

 

[jc57]

That's what I was figuring. Probably automated assembly or something to spin the pins down quickly. Plus they have a standard set of patterns they make over and over, perhaps not a big burden to them to have the pin-setter for each pattern use different length pins .

 

[Will Power]

Here's how I favour a domed pin. Pile side the same on this Half-Whitt with quite thick bone slabs. Was looking over my Böker Germany collection, I have about a dozen, just gave 1 away, different patterns. Stockman, Pen, Whittler,Congress,Copperhead, Lockback, wood and bone. None of these have sink-holes all have nicely finished domed pins- I know there will be exceptions to this. Germany hardly rates as a low cost labour economy. The flat or domed pin looks better in my view, that's all.

 

[Bear]

willgoy: I've been tempted to "correct" the sunken pins on some of my GECs the way you described. Can you share any specifics? Did you clean the pin head before adding the brass rod? How did you finish the head of the brass rod? Did you glue it in place? Anything you can dredge up from memory would be appreciated.

 

[sogflash]

Are the pins spun or just peened on knives with wooden slabs? I have one GEC knife with one pin that is almost as flush as the pin for the backspring.

Is the risk of cracks that Mike mentioned mostly a risk on bone and stag?

I'm sorry if this has been asked before and I haven't noticed it. There are some processes of knife making I still haven't learned about.

 

[black mamba]

Will, the pins on your green half-whitt are beautifully rounded and flush with the jigged scales.

This genuine stag Cuban from 2007 shows what GEC can, but does not always do anymore: spun, domed pins.
Notice how they almost come to a cone point at the top of the pin. These are just beautiful, as is the stag.

 

[Fanglekai]

Sunk pin

Sunk pin

Beautifully flush

I prefer domed or flush pins. The sunk ones are pretty unsightly, but I carry and use the knives just the same!

 

[Will Power]

Jeff, that's what I'm talking about! That stag and the pin finish makes all the difference, what a great Cuban. My 85 stag looked the same as Fanglekai's with a couple of eye-sore holes that I filled in.. (BEAR, sent you a message, thanks) just look at the pins on that ebony Trapper of his, what a difference!

Regards, Will

 

[Taike]

Sunk pin

Sunk pin

Beautifully flush

I prefer domed or flush pins. The sunk ones are pretty unsightly, but I carry and use the knives just the same!

Glad I found this thread. Being new to traditional folders, I've been wondering why pins were sometimes sunk when it appeared that they could be flush. Given the level of attention to F&F, it didn't make much sense, especially when it's a mix of flush and sunk. I guess it still doesn't. Anyway, flush looks better to me.

 

[shipwright]

These knives aren't made on CNC machinery, so that argument doesn't apply. They make one length pin, and leave it sufficiently low so that they don't grind off the head while contouring the cover (by hand). The covers are not all exactly the same thickness, especially on stag and jigged bone, so they have to generalize pin length. Any more time spent on that detail amounts to custom work and would add an entire new process to building the knife, increasing cost. I don't see it as lower quality at all, just part of the process of making a production knife efficiently enough that we can afford them.

 

[shipwright]

Also, I have that exact same Blackwood 48, and my pins are slightly sunk, so again they just generalized a pin length, and the flush one above just had a little more material removed from the covers during shaping and polishing.

 

[Cory Hess]

Ben, I completely understand why the GEC pins come out sunken. I get that it's part of their process. However, to claim that it's "part of the process of making a production knife efficiently enough that we can afford them" is patently false. GECs weren't more expensive before they came up with this process. Right now they're among the most expensive production slipjoints you can buy, yet they're the only ones using this process as far as I know. It would be much easier to make the case that this process makes the knife more expensive, not less.

For example, going to dealer sites I can find a GEC 72 lockback for $98. GEC sets this price by making their dealers sign a MAP agreement. I can find a similar Queen lockback for $75 from one of their dealers. Both knives have jigged bone handles. The main differences, aside from price, is that the Queen has a D2 blade and is the larger knife. Both of these factors should increase the price of the Queen, not lower it. The GEC has sunken pins and the Queen does not. I've toured both factories. Queen does not use more automation or more advanced machinery. Every process that is performed by hand at GEC is also performed by hand at Queen. Some that are automated at GEC, such as watercutting the blades, are still performed by hand at Queen. I'd be curious to find out how people jive the idea that this is a cost saving measure with the fact that the knives made using this process are more expensive than knives made using more traditional methods that don't leave the pins sunk.

You can say that it doesn't bother you, and that's fine. However, to claim that it's a necessary evil is flat out wrong. This is a method that Bill Howard came up with, and GEC is the only company currently using it as far as I know. The price of the knives did not go down significantly, if at all, after they started using this process. In fact, their knives are more expensive than knives made by other companies that still use the old method that didn't produce sunken pins. The fact that nobody else in the industry has taken to using this method would indicate that it's not the only possible way to make a production knife affordable. This is a choice that GEC made. They decided that they'd rather make the knives easier to produce than make them properly.

I think ptradeco had it right a couple years ago when he posted this:

But when the historical record is examined in a 100 or more years from now where do you think collectors will place GEC, for example. Others are guilty as well. I think they will not be kind...After all, as said many times in this forum, if you the end user accept it then why should they change. This thread makes me think we have become too accepting of flaws and the producers will push this as far as they can.

In 100 years, after the marketing driven frenzy has died down, I think that these decisions will keep some otherwise beautiful knives from being considered among the finest slipjoints ever produced. GEC has no reason to change, as it's not affecting their bottom line, but we as collectors should be more diligent in demanding a product that advances our hobby. I don't think that this decision by GEC does that.