knifeswapper
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Speaking of "patently false". Do you know that is nonsense, or do you believe that ?
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Sunken pins
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Speaking of "patently false". Do you know that is nonsense, or do you believe that ?
Will Power
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Cory Excellent argumentation. This thread may be old but the recent input especially from those new to Traditionals, shows that the controversy and query go on concerning the aesthetics of sunk/flush/domed pins.
Some obviously don't mind it, but others like myself see this as an aesthetics issue that has bearing on quality. Aesthetics may be subjective, but they are at the core of Traditional knife ownership for me, the beauty and the delight in use of these knives is important. I can't see how having one deep ugly sink-hole pin on a knife where the others are flush or domed can be seen as anything else but a fault and an error in the manufacturing and assembly process. All knife companies offer knives with some sunk pin holes but GEC is the serial offender here by a long chalk. As has been pointed out, both CASE and Queen generally manage to avoid this yet their knives are usually cheaper by a noticeable degree, even more so does Böker Germany. As for the argument that one sink hole may indicate fat Stag slabs well I can't see the veracity of that either, I have a really horrible ghastly chunk of bloated CASE Stag but even that managed equal pin finish, its only redeeming factor!
And as we've seen, GEC can and does manage an equal finish on pins, here's a recent example. Ask yourself, would this really look as good if it had one great empty sink-hole pin to attract dirt and muck?? I rather think not.
Some obviously don't mind it, but others like myself see this as an aesthetics issue that has bearing on quality. Aesthetics may be subjective, but they are at the core of Traditional knife ownership for me, the beauty and the delight in use of these knives is important. I can't see how having one deep ugly sink-hole pin on a knife where the others are flush or domed can be seen as anything else but a fault and an error in the manufacturing and assembly process. All knife companies offer knives with some sunk pin holes but GEC is the serial offender here by a long chalk. As has been pointed out, both CASE and Queen generally manage to avoid this yet their knives are usually cheaper by a noticeable degree, even more so does Böker Germany. As for the argument that one sink hole may indicate fat Stag slabs well I can't see the veracity of that either, I have a really horrible ghastly chunk of bloated CASE Stag but even that managed equal pin finish, its only redeeming factor!
And as we've seen, GEC can and does manage an equal finish on pins, here's a recent example. Ask yourself, would this really look as good if it had one great empty sink-hole pin to attract dirt and muck?? I rather think not.
Cory Hess
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Speaking of "patently false". Do you know that is nonsense, or do you believe that ?
This is what I remember from what he told me. If it's not true than either it was misrepresented or I am misremembering. Either is completely possible. I'd be interested in hearing about other companies that have used it, or who came up with the process if it wasn't Bill. I have only been to the two slipjoint factories, but I have handled knives from many other factories and none of those show any evidence of using this method.
Either way, it's a pretty minor point in my post. I'd be more interested in hearing a response to the larger point that changing to this process neither made GEC knives less expensive compared to their prices before the switch nor made them less expensive compared to companies that don't use this process. I'm a clean slate. Educate me.
knifeswapper
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Cory, to be honest I started to just lay into your post originally - but so many times people just assume dealers are apologist for the brands they carry. And most others feel dealers are like children of old, to be seen and not heard. But these days I probably have more Queen knives in stock than GEC; they are just a bit more dated. But if you want my opinion on what you said versus the facts.
GEC has always used slab rivets - they never changed thus the price never had to be adjusted. He used the same type nails / rivets at Queen. Bill didn't tell you he came up with the process (confirmed), slab rivets have been in supply catalogs for decades and I know they have been used since the 1970's on Case knives.
You did preface one statement with "as far as I know" so we can let the fact that Queen and Case both have used the same style slab pins / rivets / nails for many years. You don't have to stare at them very long to realize they are pre-formed on the head and not spun.
It does not take an engineer to see that a countersunk rivet that can be applied with much less slab tension and in a much faster fashion than cutting pin stock and flattening / peening both ends - is more economical; not to mention much less troublesome. If you took the tour you had the opportunity to look at the slab rivets they use and ask questions. So, if you understand the difference in these two solutions you can't possibly state that it is neither cost nor time efficient.
Comparing prices on brands by the way they cut their pins is worrisome; but I think you know that. I can count on my two hands the number of pin cracks I have seen in the wild on GEC knives (non-edc / seconds) in the last 10 years; I received more pin cracks than that in the last single delivery I received from their local counterpart. But, again, that had little to do with the components.
So, I don't know your credentials or how many knives you have taken apart and put back together. And it is obvious where your preferences generally fall when you post; as are mine I expect. But to make so many statements in one post that have so little fact behind them is a bit more than I am willing to sit quietly and read. Please don't take this as an attack on you - just your statements
Also, there are pictures of other examples around this point on the mega thread. Beautiful flush pins would look better in my opinion; if all else was equal - but it's not.
GEC has always used slab rivets - they never changed thus the price never had to be adjusted. He used the same type nails / rivets at Queen. Bill didn't tell you he came up with the process (confirmed), slab rivets have been in supply catalogs for decades and I know they have been used since the 1970's on Case knives.
You did preface one statement with "as far as I know" so we can let the fact that Queen and Case both have used the same style slab pins / rivets / nails for many years. You don't have to stare at them very long to realize they are pre-formed on the head and not spun.
It does not take an engineer to see that a countersunk rivet that can be applied with much less slab tension and in a much faster fashion than cutting pin stock and flattening / peening both ends - is more economical; not to mention much less troublesome. If you took the tour you had the opportunity to look at the slab rivets they use and ask questions. So, if you understand the difference in these two solutions you can't possibly state that it is neither cost nor time efficient.
Comparing prices on brands by the way they cut their pins is worrisome; but I think you know that. I can count on my two hands the number of pin cracks I have seen in the wild on GEC knives (non-edc / seconds) in the last 10 years; I received more pin cracks than that in the last single delivery I received from their local counterpart. But, again, that had little to do with the components.
So, I don't know your credentials or how many knives you have taken apart and put back together. And it is obvious where your preferences generally fall when you post; as are mine I expect. But to make so many statements in one post that have so little fact behind them is a bit more than I am willing to sit quietly and read. Please don't take this as an attack on you - just your statements
Also, there are pictures of other examples around this point on the mega thread. Beautiful flush pins would look better in my opinion; if all else was equal - but it's not.
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knifeswapper
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Case, Queen, and GEC do slab pins this way. The main difference is that most don't use a top pin to secure the slab and buff thru the end pins. So I don't really understand why one would be singled out solely because they add another pin to secure the slab.
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I say. Watch the videos that were posted from Crawford County Outdoor on BF a couple weeks ago. You can watch the factory worker, drill the holes, rout the holes to accept the pin head, then set the pins with a punch.
I have knives by Case that have sunken pins. I have Case knives that have ground flat pins. Same with GEC.
I don't like sunken pins, but based on how seemingly all makers do this process, it is inevitable in a few cases.
I have a couple custom/hand made knives that have all pins (steel) ground flush with the covers. That is hand work and is part of what you pay for in a custom.
The Cuban from 2007 that Jeff posted a few years back is interesting because of those cone shaped pins. Maybe GEC was sourcing brass pin stock from a different supplier with already coned tops? I don't know, but I don't think they are spun. < Note I said I don't think.
I'm pretty sure based on reading the last few posts in this thread and watching the process on video, that Mike knows what he is talking about.
I have knives by Case that have sunken pins. I have Case knives that have ground flat pins. Same with GEC.
I don't like sunken pins, but based on how seemingly all makers do this process, it is inevitable in a few cases.
I have a couple custom/hand made knives that have all pins (steel) ground flush with the covers. That is hand work and is part of what you pay for in a custom.
The Cuban from 2007 that Jeff posted a few years back is interesting because of those cone shaped pins. Maybe GEC was sourcing brass pin stock from a different supplier with already coned tops? I don't know, but I don't think they are spun. < Note I said I don't think.
I'm pretty sure based on reading the last few posts in this thread and watching the process on video, that Mike knows what he is talking about.
Cory Hess
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I'm pretty hard to offend. I never try to state things in a way that makes it seem like I'm an expert. I'm here to learn, and do so by stating how I understand things to be and asking questions. I think that this site would be done a disservice if dealers didn't post their opinions. I think that most dealers are just as much collectors as any of us, and many seem to have gotten their start as collectors and picked up dealing as a side thing. I don't think that it lends any more credibility from my viewpoint, but I don't think that it diminishes it any either. I just have to keep in mind that dealers have relationships with people at various manufacturers that may or may not skew their opinions.
I was under the understanding that GEC had changed the way they were putting their covers on based on the fact that these sunken pins didn't start appearing until two or three years after they opened. If they have always done it this way, then it's simply a matter of them not being as good at it as they used to be. When I was touring Queen I watched them flatten a pin on one side, drop it through the scale and cover, cut it to length, then flatten the other side. When I was at GEC I watched them drop a pin that was already flattened on one side through the scale and cover and then flatten it on the other side. The pins at GEC were already cut to length whereas the ones at Queen were cut after they were through the cover and scale. I was under the understanding that this was the difference in the processes that caused the sunken pins. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd also be interested in hearing if things have changed at Queen since this last summer to more closely resemble GEC's process in this regard. I'd also be interested to hear why GEC used to be able to consistently get their pins flush and/or domed and now they're unable to. Since the claim is that all of these companies use the same method I'd be very interested to hear why GEC is so much worse at it than anybody else.
I agree that judging the price of a manufacturer by the way the pins are attached is very problematic. I'm not the one that made the claim that this was a major factor in the price of a knife. I'm the one questioning that statement.
As for my preferences, I don't think they're as obvious as you might assume. I know that my comments come off as very biased one way or the other, but that's mostly because I don't have much interest in echoing the sentiments of the posts before me. Therefore, I tend to get more opportunity to post with critiques of GEC and praise of Queen, as the general tendency of this forum is the opposite. Truth be told, I've bought twice as many GECs as I have Queens. The fact that I don't make excuses for a lack of quality in one aspect of their product does not mean that I'm not a fan of GEC's. It simply means that I have higher hopes for them than you do. Bringing up Queen in this thread was simply a means of comparing GEC to the closest possible company in terms of knife type, location, and production techniques. I don't think that Case or Buck would make good comparisons because of company size and procedures, and I don't know enough about any of the other US based manufacturers to really speak to how they do things. If you know of a better company to compare GEC against I'm all ears.
At this point, I don't think that history will be kind to the crop of knives coming out of Queen right now either. In my humble opinion, the last several years of Bill Howard running Queen and the first couple of him running GEC are the pinnacle of knives in the last couple decades. GEC has gotten better in many ways as they've grown more experienced, but decisions like the sunken pins and leaving shields off of stag covered knives takes them down a notch overall. Queen is on an upward trend, but I don't know at this point if they're turning it around fast enough to get over the hump. I'm hoping that they do, but it's a two steps forward one step back situation. Given the choice between the gaps between covers and bolsters that seem to be prevalent in most recent Queens I've handled and the sunken pins that we see on most GECs, I'd choose the sunken pins. That doesn't mean that I'm a fan of either.
I was under the understanding that GEC had changed the way they were putting their covers on based on the fact that these sunken pins didn't start appearing until two or three years after they opened. If they have always done it this way, then it's simply a matter of them not being as good at it as they used to be. When I was touring Queen I watched them flatten a pin on one side, drop it through the scale and cover, cut it to length, then flatten the other side. When I was at GEC I watched them drop a pin that was already flattened on one side through the scale and cover and then flatten it on the other side. The pins at GEC were already cut to length whereas the ones at Queen were cut after they were through the cover and scale. I was under the understanding that this was the difference in the processes that caused the sunken pins. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd also be interested in hearing if things have changed at Queen since this last summer to more closely resemble GEC's process in this regard. I'd also be interested to hear why GEC used to be able to consistently get their pins flush and/or domed and now they're unable to. Since the claim is that all of these companies use the same method I'd be very interested to hear why GEC is so much worse at it than anybody else.
I agree that judging the price of a manufacturer by the way the pins are attached is very problematic. I'm not the one that made the claim that this was a major factor in the price of a knife. I'm the one questioning that statement.
As for my preferences, I don't think they're as obvious as you might assume. I know that my comments come off as very biased one way or the other, but that's mostly because I don't have much interest in echoing the sentiments of the posts before me. Therefore, I tend to get more opportunity to post with critiques of GEC and praise of Queen, as the general tendency of this forum is the opposite. Truth be told, I've bought twice as many GECs as I have Queens. The fact that I don't make excuses for a lack of quality in one aspect of their product does not mean that I'm not a fan of GEC's. It simply means that I have higher hopes for them than you do. Bringing up Queen in this thread was simply a means of comparing GEC to the closest possible company in terms of knife type, location, and production techniques. I don't think that Case or Buck would make good comparisons because of company size and procedures, and I don't know enough about any of the other US based manufacturers to really speak to how they do things. If you know of a better company to compare GEC against I'm all ears.
At this point, I don't think that history will be kind to the crop of knives coming out of Queen right now either. In my humble opinion, the last several years of Bill Howard running Queen and the first couple of him running GEC are the pinnacle of knives in the last couple decades. GEC has gotten better in many ways as they've grown more experienced, but decisions like the sunken pins and leaving shields off of stag covered knives takes them down a notch overall. Queen is on an upward trend, but I don't know at this point if they're turning it around fast enough to get over the hump. I'm hoping that they do, but it's a two steps forward one step back situation. Given the choice between the gaps between covers and bolsters that seem to be prevalent in most recent Queens I've handled and the sunken pins that we see on most GECs, I'd choose the sunken pins. That doesn't mean that I'm a fan of either.
Jolipapa
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First let me say, IMO along with many others GEC knives are the best built traditional slip joints on earth.
The pin with the flower is holding maybe 25% of the pin in the scale.
About "best built", just have a look at Dozorme, Forges de laguiole, Aubrac and tens of other makes in France and Germany... That will bring you back to a more modest appreciation... OK GEC are good knives, butNOT the only on earth! and certainly NOT the best value for buck!
joeradza
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That is a poor argument Mike. You cannot support my dislike of sunken pins by stating that others do it or it's because of an extra pin. I support GEC with my wallet and my purchases prove that. I am only stating a fact. I don't like sunken pins. I've never sent one back and no one except those here even notice it. And, the reason is that we all strive for the best knife possible.
Jolipapa
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+1 :thumbup: How comes other manufacturers do not have this problem?
The one thing that interests me is the many posts throughout this forum about the fit and finish of a GEC knife vs. other manufacturers. Same with youtube reviewers who routinely praise GEC for a knife which is head and shoulders above other production knives primarily because of fit and finish. The sunken pins in all fairness are not great fit and finish especially when you consider reviewers and others praising bolster to handle transitions, flush back springs, etc. I guess I'm sort of confused why all these other fit and finish issues are so highly appreciated and lauded but pins are exempt from any criticism. Whatever.
kamagong
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The pins are not exempt from criticism. This thread is ample evidence of that. Did you read it prior to commenting?
Like everything else you need to take what you hear and read with a grain of salt. That includes reviews of GEC knives. For example, I've seen GEC knives described as flawless or even perfect. Absolute nonsense. I haven't seen a GEC hold a candle to the knives I have from Dowell, Ohta, and Hampton. And these makers aren't even the acknowledged masters of their craft. There are some better. Yet none of these expert cutlers, men with years of experience and the time to make sure that each knife that leaves their shops is the best it can be, has ever made a perfect knife. How can GEC? (They can't).
There is a lot of enthusiasm for GEC, and rightly so, but it's important to keep in mind that these are production knives. As good as they are, and they are very good, they'll always have to make some concessions to economy and efficiency. That's not a knock, just a simple truth. Be thankful there now exists a slipjoint manufacturer that strives for excellence, even if they fall short of the idealized level of perfection. Ten years ago you didn't even have that.
Like everything else you need to take what you hear and read with a grain of salt. That includes reviews of GEC knives. For example, I've seen GEC knives described as flawless or even perfect. Absolute nonsense. I haven't seen a GEC hold a candle to the knives I have from Dowell, Ohta, and Hampton. And these makers aren't even the acknowledged masters of their craft. There are some better. Yet none of these expert cutlers, men with years of experience and the time to make sure that each knife that leaves their shops is the best it can be, has ever made a perfect knife. How can GEC? (They can't).
There is a lot of enthusiasm for GEC, and rightly so, but it's important to keep in mind that these are production knives. As good as they are, and they are very good, they'll always have to make some concessions to economy and efficiency. That's not a knock, just a simple truth. Be thankful there now exists a slipjoint manufacturer that strives for excellence, even if they fall short of the idealized level of perfection. Ten years ago you didn't even have that.
knifeswapper
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It was a better argument in my head... But in looking thru hundreds of slipjoints to find some comparables today in other brands; it was obvious that many makers try to stay away from a top pin. The backspring pin nearly everyone spins, and the two end slab pins nearly everyone puts in set-length pins. Some buff all the way through the domed top so they look like straight stock; but most leave them a little below surface. But a top pin is usually in the texture of the slab, thus you can't buff it down without buffing the texture. But look at your factory knives and pay attention how few non-GEC's have a top pin. I think if GEC takes out the top pin a lot of this contention goes away - but is it a better knife? But, to say just because every maker does it that way does not make it right; probably needs a little thought put to it as well. Every maker wants to make the best knife they can given the restrictions their market affords; so the argument that all these engineers do it wrong because all the other engineers do it wrong is a bit hard to swallow as well. If they all do it that way, there might be a reason.
knifeswapper
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You have taken my post better than I would have. My intention was not to offend you, but I went to my daughter's basketball game and worried the whole time that I didn't choose many of my words with enough care. I appreciate you giving the spirit of my post the benefit of the doubt. One thing we all need to realize is that there old hands here on BF and there are newer nuts that are soaking up every word they read - especially if it is written with authority. And when stuff is said as a "best guess" or interpretation; it is then many times perceived as the truth. My point was mainly to clarify some issues. This conversation has come up several times in different places, so I had actually spent some times in conversations with makers before.
It is my understanding that there are differing pins, but the pre-set length is fairly common. I am going to take my sleeping pill and see if I can draw a couple rough diagrams while it kicks in...
joeradza
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Mike, no offense taken from you. Your knowledge and experience far exceeds mine. Not only that, your ability to explain without a demeaning attitude is what makes you a success. We all want to see the traditional knife makers to succeed and therefore you too. We all benefit from a reasonable discussion. Thanks.
Cory Hess
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No worries at all, Mike. The way I see it, we're all here trying to learn and understand these things as best we can. It's a fair point that some things can come across as fact when it's really my understanding from memories of watching somebody for a couple minutes and having a short conversation with them six months ago. It's not my intention to mislead, but I should do a better job pointing that out.
At the end of the day, all of the manufacturers mentioned do a pretty darn good job of turning out some really cool knives. They're all doing the best that they know how, and balancing compromises between making the perfect knife and keeping their doors open. When we get into these discussions it's really nitpicking, the same way car guys might nitpick between a Lamborghini and a Ferrari. Either choice is pretty darn good. It's fair to say that they might not compare favorably with the best knives ever made, but it should also be pointed out that they're all better knives than I have any right to expect.
I look forward to hearing more of an explanation if you'd care to provide it, Mike.
At the end of the day, all of the manufacturers mentioned do a pretty darn good job of turning out some really cool knives. They're all doing the best that they know how, and balancing compromises between making the perfect knife and keeping their doors open. When we get into these discussions it's really nitpicking, the same way car guys might nitpick between a Lamborghini and a Ferrari. Either choice is pretty darn good. It's fair to say that they might not compare favorably with the best knives ever made, but it should also be pointed out that they're all better knives than I have any right to expect.
I look forward to hearing more of an explanation if you'd care to provide it, Mike.
knifeswapper
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OK, now this is my experience in working with pin stock and talking to makers about nails and rivets. These are slab attach only, as frame nails are a different process.
Method 1) Peening pin stock. Place the pin stock into a hole thru the slab/liner that has been slightly tapered. My picture is exaggerated as this taper is just a few thousandths. Nip off the excess on the liner side and while keeping pressure on the top peen (flatten) out the pin stock on the liner. To be honest I just always did this beforehand and slid it up through the bottom. If I was really lazy I just hit the end of the pin stock on a belt sander and it would cause a thin cap. Then nip off the excess pin stock on top and peen it causing it to spread in the taper. This would cause a good hold on the slab, but causes you to really have to put pressure on the slab. I would make the hole in the bone a couple thousandths larger than that in the liner, so the pressure was minimized on the slab itself and directed to the liner. Then grind/buff off the excess on top and buff the liner.
Method 2) Nails. Drop the nail in the hole, nip the pin to length on the liner side; then spread. You have to keep pressure on the top side, but this has a good hold. The only thing is that you are still putting a bit of pressure on the slab when you spread the solid stock and you do not get as tight a fit as you are spreading with pressure up. The plus side is the you can countersink your hole to a set depth on the slab as you can nip the back side off to fit. You can also grind/buff the top of the head off and make it look like straight pin stock on a smooth surface. Go too deep and your taper, and hold, get diminished.
Method 3) Rivets. Drop the rivet in the hole, then spread with a device made to keep a tight pull on the liner/slab while uniformly spreading the hollow ended rivet. This does not put as much pressure on the slab while installing and gets a good snug pull on slab to liner. But you don't want a hollow pin, so the hollow is only on the very end - this making these pins a pre-set length. Since they are a pre-set length you tap the countersink by distance from liner instead of depth from top. This is a fast process and is amazing to watch someone that has done it millions of times.
Both method 2 and 3 seem better to me because you can see that the nail/rivet cannot allow the slab to creep up whereas a simple taper can over time. That is why you have seen older traditionals that were just peened with the slab that will move up/down on the pin. Maybe one of these days the precision will get to where we can drop a nail in, nip it, then tap the last bit for spread like a rivet - in a few seconds. Cut to length with a tight hold and minimal pressure.
This is my interpretation of what I have been told as all I have ever used in good old pin stock.
Method 1) Peening pin stock. Place the pin stock into a hole thru the slab/liner that has been slightly tapered. My picture is exaggerated as this taper is just a few thousandths. Nip off the excess on the liner side and while keeping pressure on the top peen (flatten) out the pin stock on the liner. To be honest I just always did this beforehand and slid it up through the bottom. If I was really lazy I just hit the end of the pin stock on a belt sander and it would cause a thin cap. Then nip off the excess pin stock on top and peen it causing it to spread in the taper. This would cause a good hold on the slab, but causes you to really have to put pressure on the slab. I would make the hole in the bone a couple thousandths larger than that in the liner, so the pressure was minimized on the slab itself and directed to the liner. Then grind/buff off the excess on top and buff the liner.
Method 2) Nails. Drop the nail in the hole, nip the pin to length on the liner side; then spread. You have to keep pressure on the top side, but this has a good hold. The only thing is that you are still putting a bit of pressure on the slab when you spread the solid stock and you do not get as tight a fit as you are spreading with pressure up. The plus side is the you can countersink your hole to a set depth on the slab as you can nip the back side off to fit. You can also grind/buff the top of the head off and make it look like straight pin stock on a smooth surface. Go too deep and your taper, and hold, get diminished.
Method 3) Rivets. Drop the rivet in the hole, then spread with a device made to keep a tight pull on the liner/slab while uniformly spreading the hollow ended rivet. This does not put as much pressure on the slab while installing and gets a good snug pull on slab to liner. But you don't want a hollow pin, so the hollow is only on the very end - this making these pins a pre-set length. Since they are a pre-set length you tap the countersink by distance from liner instead of depth from top. This is a fast process and is amazing to watch someone that has done it millions of times.
Both method 2 and 3 seem better to me because you can see that the nail/rivet cannot allow the slab to creep up whereas a simple taper can over time. That is why you have seen older traditionals that were just peened with the slab that will move up/down on the pin. Maybe one of these days the precision will get to where we can drop a nail in, nip it, then tap the last bit for spread like a rivet - in a few seconds. Cut to length with a tight hold and minimal pressure.
This is my interpretation of what I have been told as all I have ever used in good old pin stock.