Super Steels vs Regular Steels

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This thread trashing bluntcut saddens me. He does not have an in depth metallurgical degree and full fluency of the english language or even really, deep down understanding of what's happening, but he's seeing it and has been independently verified by others on multiple occasions, from people who know almost nothing just wailing on knives to people who arguably know something about working with steel. He's putting his own money on the line and has repeatedly asked for others who are willing to verify what he's seeing. He shows he's using a calibrated hardness tester and still shows results that others question.

I don't understand it. I respect Larrin and i believe him to be very knowledgeable, but like most scientists, something he doesn't understand either comes along and rather than volunteering to test for results himself, he basically questions another man's integrity and sincerity.

I don't understand why scientists are this way. If you question it, test it yourself. That's what seems reasonable to me. And you can't blame a man who's spent countless dollars from his own bank account figuring out something that works better who won't readily share the way he's doing something. Maybe if you offered to pay him at least half of the cost for all the countless hours of work and materials he's paid for on his own, he'd share with you what he figured out and how to do it?

Larrin, i respect what you bring to the table. You're an undeniably valuable source of information. But like with anything out there, maybe there's more going on than what science knows about at any given time. If you question his results despite multiple others verifying them, then maybe contact Luong and buy a knife from him (shoot, he'd probably send you one for free) and create a very closely synthesized copy used with currently accepted heat treatment protocols and report to us all what you find? Otherwise, please, don't trash an honest and sincere man who's simply showing that he found something worth looking at. If you feel this strongly about it yet don't disprove the claims, you are not helping anyone. And i truly believe you ARE trying to help, that's why i say this.

Remember, there was a long time that certain people were unfairly maligned for saying the earth was round and not the center of the universe, mostly by the acknowledged scientists of the time.
 
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If bluntcut had only claimed that his heat treatment gave some positive result I wouldn't say anything. But he invented science and that is what I have criticized: made up science. And I will keep on criticizing it. I have never questioned his knives. I don't know if they are good or not.
 
If bluntcut had only claimed that his heat treatment gave some positive result I wouldn't say anything. But he invented science and that is what I have criticized: made up science. And I will keep on criticizing it. I have never questioned his knives. I don't know if they are good or not.

But you are one of the most credible people relating to this issue. If you refuse to even test it, what are we supposed to do? You can't fault a man for trying to describe what he's seeing. You may fault him for being less than fully knowledgeable but you can't fault him for his results unless you test them and show that it's wrong. It seems very partisan otherwise. And it really does, in this case, seem very partisan.

I have two of Luong's knives. One from his early stages and one from a while later. I can send them to you to test if you want. I would ask that you not destroy them but if you want to add some divots to test hardness and have them catra tested and do some work with them yourself, I'll send them. If you say they suck, then I'll believe that my own opinions about them were biased. If you say they are really good, then I'll go with that too.
 
But you are one of the most credible people relating to this issue. If you refuse to even test it, what are we supposed to do? You can't fault a man for trying to describe what he's seeing. You may fault him for being less than fully knowledgeable but you can't fault him for his results unless you test them and show that it's wrong. It seems very partisan otherwise. And it really does, in this case, seem very partisan.
I don't recall ever refusing to test it.

He isn't describing what he's seeing. He's making up metallurgy with "sciencey" sounding words that are nonsensical. No different than witch doctors peddling medicine with fake sciencey explanations for how it is going to work. I have no respect for that.
 
I don't recall ever refusing to test it.

He isn't describing what he's seeing. He's making up metallurgy with "sciencey" sounding words that are nonsensical. No different than witch doctors peddling medicine with fake sciencey explanations for how it is going to work. I have no respect for that.

Don't know if you saw this:

I have two of Luong's knives. One from his early stages and one from a while later. I can send them to you to test if you want. I would ask that you not destroy them but if you want to add some divots to test hardness and have them catra tested and do some work with them yourself, I'll send them. If you say they suck, then I'll believe that my own opinions about them were biased. If you say they are really good, then I'll go with that too.

One is 52100 and one is 10V.
 
You can't test toughness without breaking things. The best way to test the heat treatment is to make charpy specimens with the heat treatment.
 
I don't believe I had an open offer for toughness testing back when it was being discussed. I have an open offer to test any samples that fit a specific geometry: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/call-for-charpy-toughness-samples.1548360/
But what if the sample you get of, say M4, is at 68-69 RC, verified by you? That's outside of your testing parameters. I believe bluntcut was pushing beyond normal boundaries. If you asked for M4 at 64 RC and above and you were willing to post the results, i believe thatd be different. But saying you only want M4, or any steel, at 60 RC kind of defeats the purpose of saying his methods lead to M4 at 68 RC being as tough as another maker's M4 at 62 RC. Ask for both at an ideal 60 RC, then you've already negated the purpose of the test.
 
I said I prefer 60 Rc, not that all samples must be 60 Rc. Ideally there is a range of hardness. I specified a hardness because otherwise I would get things all over the map and they would be difficult to compare.
 
I said I prefer 60 Rc, not that all samples must be 60 Rc. Ideally there is a range of hardness. I specified a hardness because otherwise I would get things all over the map and they would be difficult to compare.
How about some test that gives a specific geometry cut from CPM 10V at 66 RC? Then show how many people could even get that hardness and performed adequately? And then show what a good example looked like at that hardness?
 
I spent a significant amount of time on those threads about "Crystal Weaving" and I can tell you that there isn't anything to his proposed theories. I pointed out all of the inconsistencies and nonsensical parts and he didn't budge in the slightest. He is preaching a religion not science. As I said many times in those other threads, I have no idea if his heat treatment is good or not. But I have a big problem with how he presents it, describes it, and overall just makes up whatever he wants.
well to be fair metallurgy isnt just science for a smith, there are things a smith comes to understand from working the steel that are less... tangible in written context. Like observing a phase shift through a hammers impact and finding a quench range through that process intuitively. scientifically you would do 50 parts and test ranges with labs and electron microscopes, but people for the better part of a thousand years do things from feel and a sort of enlightenment from working with the material. It sounds bullshit but it's not.

balancing that with theory is very difficult, especially since known references can be very vague or unexplored.
 
Tests can be rigged that can verify what needs to be verified or disregard what needs to be disregarded. They can absolutely be rigged to negate outliers despite the outliers being what should be studied. If you don't form the test to adequately show what's happening with the outliers, even though your intentions are to prove the merits if the outliers, then what's the point of the test?

Why not just ask if anyone can provide blanks of S30V at 64+ RC and then show whatever the tests show? I wonder if you'd get more than one blank at or above that hardness to test to begin with, let alone show it remains a good edge through testing. And i wonder if that one blank would be from Luong. From what i understand he's bowed out from trying to prove anything because most disregard his findings in spite of independent, albeit anecdotal, verification.
 
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well to be fair metallurgy isnt just science for a smith, there are things a smith comes to understand from working the steel that are less... tangible in written context. Like observing a phase shift through a hammers impact and finding a quench range through that process intuitively. scientifically you would do 50 parts and test ranges with labs and electron microscopes, but people for the better part of a thousand years do things from feel and a sort of enlightenment from working with the material. It sounds bullshit but it's not.
I have a feeling you haven't actually read anything he has written.
 
How about some test that gives a specific geometry cut from CPM 10V at 66 RC? Then show how many people could even get that hardness and performed adequately? And then show what a good example looked like at that hardness?
A comparison with a steel at high hardness from a "conventional" heat treatment is a good idea.
 
Tests can be rigged that can verify what needs to be verified or disregard what needs to be disregarded. They can absolutely be rigged to negate outliers despite the outliers being what should be studied.
Thats what peer review is for. To prevent biased or rigged outcomes being accepted at face value.
 
From what i understand he's bowed out from trying to prove anything because most disregard his findings in spite of independent, albeit anecdotal, verification.
He has nothing to gain by "proving" his heat treatment is good. He has developed his following and has nowhere to go but down from here.
 
He has nothing to gain by "proving" his heat treatment is good. He has developed his following and has nowhere to go but down from here.
Well, if a guy like you found there was merit in his findings despite his inarticulate and sometimes questionable statements, then I'd think guy like you would want to get involved with what he is doing even more. Will his name be on par with Leonardo da Vinci? Probably not, but can guys like yourself at least verify what he's saying and bring our small niche of the world to a higher plane and credit him? Sure. I believe so.

Has Chris Reeve REALLY done anything great? Nah, not really. But does his name deserve recognition in our little part of the world? Absolutely.

One thing is for sure. If you found merit in his work, people would listen. You definitely aren't a fan of his or really much willing to give him a chance. If you said after testing his methods beat others contrary to your initial statements, it'd be believed because of the stark contradictions you initially gave.
 
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Tests can be rigged that can verify what needs to be verified or disregard what needs to be disregarded. They can absolutely be rigged to negate outliers despite the outliers being what should be studied. If you don't form the test to adequately show what's happening with the outliers, even though your intentions are to prove the merits if the outliers, then what's the point of the test?

Why not just ask if anyone can provide blanks of S30V at 64+ RC and then show whatever the tests show? I wonder if you'd get more than one blank at or above that hardness to test to begin with, let alone show it remains a good edge through testing. And i wonder if that one blank would be from Luong.
It's a good idea to suggest that my testing is bad before I test anything. That way if it doesn't confirm what you want you can say you knew my testing wouldn't be fair to begin with.
 
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