Super Steels vs Regular Steels

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mfunnell said:
Perhaps I'll find, with extended usage, that the improvement in performance from my "super steel" knives is better than "questionable". But I'm not at all sure I've seen it yet. At least not to the extent that there's performance to justify the "super pricing" of some...

...Mike
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I hope one of the things that you take away from this thread is that you don't have to be confined to the newest, latest and greatest steels. So many steels in blades out there now used to be the "super steels" of their day, but now they are considered by some to be a baseline steel for their use.

Back in the 60s I carried only carbon as it was all we had (reasonably affordable) for knife blades. Somewhere in the early 70s, I purchased a Buck fixed blade that was from a magic steel touted by all as the new standard for all serious knife people: 440C. I loved it! It has hiked, camped, hunted, fished, etc., more than any knife I own. It still acquits itself well against the "super steels" in my opinion. But I don't cut giant hanks of rope into little pieces with it, I don't shave with it, and I don't use it for anything other than a cutting instrument. It was the super steel of its day and as manufacturers and makers learned more about it and how to use it, IIRC it held on to that title for awhile. So I am on board with new steels and their use.

And it got me to stainless and all its benefits. I am keenly interested in the innovation of technology in steel and knife manufacturing, as well as the availability of new steels. As a construction guy, I am drawn to cutting tools that need little sharpening in and hold their edges. Chisels, lathe tools, specialty work knives, planer blades, router bits, etc., are all part of the picture for me, and that includes the knife I carry daily in my pocket. But I don't buy tools or knives just to have them. I have too many of both as it is.

If I know I might trash the edge of a knife when I am at work that day (depending on the task at hand) I am happy to take one of my 8crXX knives or their friends and get with it with no worries. If I am doing trim work and know I will only but cutting wood all day, the field is open. 440C, D2, and even S35 will take a fine enough edge to make me happy. Then it comes down to blade geometry, blade size, how the knife feels in my hand for the tasks at hand, etc. Heck, now that the weather is turning cooler, I will start carrying some of my old carbon again!

So the point to me, is that knife steel, including "super steels" is a consideration to be made when looking at a certain KNIFE. I think that it is possible that if you stick with this and think of a knife as a tool more than a toy or collectible, you will start to match the tool to your needs. Then you can put the "super steel" hoopla into proper perspective for yourself.

Robert
 
craytab said:
I'm not sure why anyone thinking about the hype of a given steel would rather rely on other people's tests rather than their own experience. Buy it and give it a try.
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Because it's a passing curiosity. I don't want a busse, don't want to try to recoup costs on one, and don't really care about the knives. I'm just saying I'd be interested in seeing the same sort of testing Larrin has already done, on this steel. That's it. I don't even have the equipment for such tests. And I'm not going to buy one and a bunch of other blades in similar steels, head out to the woods, and get some inconclusive data on them. I've spent more time replying to your responses on this nonsense than I have thinking about the steel at this point, so I'm out.
 
marrenmiller said:
Because it's a passing curiosity. I don't want a busse, don't want to try to recoup costs on one, and don't really care about the knives. I'm just saying I'd be interested in seeing the same sort of testing Larrin has already done, on this steel. That's it. I don't even have the equipment for such tests. And I'm not going to buy one and a bunch of other blades in similar steels, head out to the woods, and get some inconclusive data on them. I've spent more time replying to your responses on this nonsense than I have thinking about the steel at this point, so I'm out.
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Okay then. That was a waste of time if you don't actually care about what you were talking about. Don't buy it and try it then, but since you are unwilling to do so and you apparently don't care, maybe don't call it hype.
 
craytab said:
Okay then. That was a waste of time if you don't actually care about what you were talking about. Don't buy it and try it then, but since you are unwilling to do so and you apparently don't care, maybe don't call it hype.
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The steel has been tested by plenty of people, and it is hype. Any one of the makers here can build a knife that will hang with a busse! 8670, with a differential heat treat, and obtuse edge will hold up almost as good, for a fraction of the cost! They do build nice knives, with a good warranty. And their heat treat is good. But I doubt it’s any better than most custom makers can achieve. This isn’t a knock in any way, just an opinion.
 
Infi is not hype. Nathan Carothers chopped some big nails in half with an INFI knife and one with his proprietary D3V. From what I could see in the video, both steels had the same amount of slight edge damage. I can attest from personal use, that D3V is some amazing stuff with great properties I like in a woods knife. D3V will hold its sharpness longer, but both are amazing in the toughness category.
 
91bravo said:
Infi is not hype. Nathan Carothers chopped some big nails in half with an INFI knife and one with his proprietary D3V. From what I could see in the video, both steels had the same amount of slight edge damage. I can attest from personal use, that D3V is some amazing stuff with great properties I like in a woods knife. D3V will hold its sharpness longer, but both are amazing in the toughness category.
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That’s what I’m getting at! Some people make it seem like the end all be all steel. But Nathan used 3v that held up as well as infi, but will hold a working edge twice as long.
 
rodriguez7 said:
That’s what I’m getting at! Some people make it seem like the end all be all steel. But Nathan used 3v that held up as well as infi, but will hold a working edge twice as long.
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There's really not much out there that can really take the destructive use that D3V can. INFI is one of the few that can come very close. If there are others out there that can, please inform us!
 
rodriguez7 said:
The steel has been tested by plenty of people, and it is hype. Any one of the makers here can build a knife that will hang with a busse! 8670, with a differential heat treat, and obtuse edge will hold up almost as good, for a fraction of the cost! They do build nice knives, with a good warranty. And their heat treat is good. But I doubt it’s any better than most custom makers can achieve. This isn’t a knock in any way, just an opinion.
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Yup, just another opinion...
 
91bravo said:
There's really not much out there that can really take the destructive use that D3V can. INFI is one of the few that can come very close. If there are others out there that can, please inform us!
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I’m not trying to argue. But I said there is plenty of custom makers that can make a blade just as tough. I’m not saying tougher, or better! But anyway. Thanks larrin for the informative thread.
 
Mo2 said:
You may want a steel with better edge stability and toughness. Something 5hat will roll instead of chip. Cruewear, M4, AEB-L, 52100. Steels like 3v, 4v and Elmax are good with toughness and edge retention but will chip, they just have a tendency to take more before they do.

With that said you can use a more obtuse edge angle on the steel you have chipping on to reduce that effect or just don't use them for the tasks your performing with them. Obtuse edge angles will reduce edge retention.. Also I have seen poor sharpening or abrasives (or a combo of the two) also cause chipping.
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Thanks! For full disclosure, only in one case was I surprised at the chipping in a blade. That one occurred in 20CV, cutting the plastic packaging from a toy. In another case I cut through a paper tie that unknown to me had a wire underneath, and I’ve also dropped a knife and damaged it.
 
91bravo said:
Infi is not hype. Nathan Carothers chopped some big nails in half with an INFI knife and one with his proprietary D3V. From what I could see in the video, both steels had the same amount of slight edge damage. I can attest from personal use, that D3V is some amazing stuff with great properties I like in a woods knife. D3V will hold its sharpness longer, but both are amazing in the toughness category.
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Yes, this. I've experienced both with plenty of actual use, not tests. D3v is better in a couple ways. That pesky edge retention and corrosion resistance. Both steels have delivered exactly as advertised. Not hype.
 
danbot said:
He means in a form that can be tested using standard metallurgical testing equipment like the Charpy toughness test or samples for the CATRA test etc.
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Yes it doesn't do me any good to buy a bunch of different knives and then claim that I am testing the "steel." That leaves a ton of variables, edge geometry chief among them, that I cannot separate from the steel performance. And buying knives gets expensive fast. It is a much better use of my time and money to make consistent test coupons. If that means I won't be able to test Infi, then oh well.
 
danbot said:
He means in a form that can be tested using standard metallurgical testing equipment like the Charpy toughness test or samples for the CATRA test etc.
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Larrin said:
Yes it doesn't do me any good to buy a bunch of different knives and then claim that I am testing the "steel." That leaves a ton of variables, edge geometry chief among them, that I cannot separate from the steel performance. And buying knives gets expensive fast. It is a much better use of my time and money to make consistent test coupons. If that means I won't be able to test Infi, then oh well.
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Okay, I get that.

I doubt busse would send out a sample of their proprietary heat treated steel for metallurgical analysis and testing not of their knife design.

Nor would such a test change real world results already reported by members here. I like science, but there is only so much you can learn in a vacuum.
 
Despite this comment probably having occurred in some prior reply, the only way I believe a knife blade can "shuffle the cards" and improve toughness/ductility while retaining high HRC value is to use a laminated steel - that is, sandwich a high wear resistance cutting layer between softer steel layers having superior ductility. My experience is with Morseth knives and Cowry X Damascus (in reality, three layers, outer layers being softer decorative Damascus steel) knives built to order by Ichiro. Yes, Cowry X had to be treated more delicately when field dressing and butchering - or dropping - than my Morseths.

My Cowry Xs were gifted to my nephew and his three boys. My Morseths were wedding gifts to my younger step daughter and her husband (along with a Brunton Geo 5010 transit). Were I to begin acquiring outdoorsman's knives again, I would buy three Morseths with laminated steel blades, shaped as I prefer - and stop! They are probably the most useful compromise among, wear resistance, toughness, ductility, and sharpenability of any knife made today. Only two minor problems: maintenance requires more time; and cost. I have Dozier Sisu knives that may be comparably functional while requiring less stringent maintenance, but I'm probably too old to use them enough to confirm either way.

Hope there is something useful in the mishmash.
 
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