Super Steels: What's the point?

hardheart said:
2 or 3 times still seems pretty high, are there some test results for that?
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Just my own subjective experience. I used some steels that outlasted S30V by a loooooongg way. But, geometry probably played a larger role in that than steel type/heat treat.
 
I have always believed that one should match the steel to the personality (characteristics) of the owner. In my case, the 'Old Bastard' factor comes into play. I like my knives with the ability to take a quick strop to bring them back to razor sharpness. My 'Old Bastard' factor demands it.

The other day, I knackered the first third of a ZDP-189 blade. My other knives would have just rolled the edge, which I could have renewed on a steel and after a few passes on a strop, all would be good. The ZDP-189 just laughed and thumbed it's nose at me as I attempted to sharpen it out on an Arkansas stone. It mumbled something about liking to go skating.

Jim's molecular splitting, sharpening techniques are legendary. I would daresay he finds great enjoyment in the process, which is great. I on the other hand just get PO'd if I have to spend more than 10 minutes on the stones. You might say that I don't have the 'stones' for it. That said, I do enjoy others enjoyment of the 'super' steels. You won't hear me call them better, just different.
 
I don't have any "super steels" when it comes to edge retention.

Infi and D2 are about as "super" as I have. Infi is not the top of the heap when it comes to edge retention, especially from slicing chores. D2 holds a pretty good edge for slicing chores.

As to wear resistance, man, the D2 took a surprisingly long time to re profile, even with a belt sander.

Many of my knives are 1095, and get a few passes on the strop occasionally to keep them hair whittling sharp.




michaelm466 said:
I sometimes go through 100-300 cardboard boxes a day at work or have to "damage out" returned, but washed/worn clothing items that we can't resell so they have to be cut up and thrown away, so cutting up 40 pairs of denim jeans, 50 t-shirts, some sweaters coats, 20 pairs of shoes (some several inches thick). When I first started I used a Benchmade Vex in 8cr14mov, which is basically equivalent to AUS8 or 440B, with a good heat treat by Benchmade, however it would only make it through about 1/3 of what I needed it for, and I can't just pull out a sharpmaker or something at work, spend 10 minutes putting a new edge on my knife, so I switched to S30V which got me 3/4 of the way through depending on the amount it had to go through sometimes more, and finally to ZDP-189 (however it was a saber grind so I'm sure ffg would have done better) which wouldn't shave hair afterward, but would make it all the way through sharper than the 8cr was after 1/4 of the way through the job. Now my collection consists mostly of "super steels" (the most prevalent steel in my collection is M390) and although I'm no longer the person who does the "damaging out" for clothes or need to cut down that many boxes I do still prefer super steels because if I'm in a situation that I do need to do that I know my knives won't stop working 1/3 or 1/2 way through the job, also I've gone from needing to sharpen an edc about once every 2 weeks to once every 3-4 months when used for regular use. Also I use a $35 benchgrinder from harbor freight so even S90V takes about 5 minutes from very dull to shaving, if all I had was a Sharpmaker or some stones, I would probably have to do touchups to keep on top of my super steels and I would spend a lot more time sharpening dull super steels or reprofiling.
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Man, Take those items to Deseret Industries..........talk to your boss about donating them!
 
Bigfattyt said:
I don't have any "super steels" when it comes to edge retention.

Infi and D2 are about as "super" as I have. Infi is not the top of the heap when it comes to edge retention, especially from slicing chores. D2 holds a pretty good edge for slicing chores.

As to wear resistance, man, the D2 took a surprisingly long time to re profile, even with a belt sander.

Many of my knives are 1095, and get a few passes on the strop occasionally to keep them hair whittling sharp.


Man, Take those items to Deseret Industries..........talk to your boss about donating them!
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Not answer for the Poster, however, back in the day, when I worked in retail, damaged or returned items could not be resold or donated; something to do with taxation laws, etc. That's why the big retailers (I.E. target, Macys, Kohlls, etc) don't donate.

On Topic: The reason for the fad of Super Steels: To sell knives and have internet forums bicker about grain structure, heat treat, etc.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
Just my own subjective experience. I used some steels that outlasted S30V by a loooooongg way. But, geometry probably played a larger role in that than steel type/heat treat.
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Ohhhh your own subjective experience means so much...

...that is known as anecdotal evidence - which basically counts for not a whole lot in the real world of science. Moreover, by acknowledging different blade geometry your 'evidence/experience' is utterly corrupted. You simply aren't comparing like with like.

I do agree with you that blade geometry will likely play a larger role. At least that is the one thing we can agree on...
 
Peroni1973 said:
Ohhhh your own subjective experience means so much...

...that is known as anecdotal evidence - which basically counts for not a whole lot in the real world of science. Moreover, by acknowledging different blade geometry your 'evidence/experience' is utterly corrupted. You simply aren't comparing like with like.

I do agree with you that blade geometry will likely play a larger role. At least that is the one thing we can agree on...
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Whew, you got me good there! I should have never claimed my experiences to be valid science!







Wait, I never have. Your emotional response made me LOL though.
 
Peroni1973 said:
Ohhhh your own subjective experience means so much...

...that is known as anecdotal evidence - which basically counts for not a whole lot in the real world of science. Moreover, by acknowledging different blade geometry your 'evidence/experience' is utterly corrupted. You simply aren't comparing like with like.

I do agree with you that blade geometry will likely play a larger role. At least that is the one thing we can agree on...
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Ok, here's some data for you.

crucible-steel-chart.jpg

bohler-edge-retention.jpg


The first chart is from the fine folks at Crucible, the second clearly from Bohler-Uddeholm. Feel free to continue your sarcastic diatribe now.
 
Peroni1973 said:
Ohhhh your own subjective experience means so much...

...that is known as anecdotal evidence - which basically counts for not a whole lot in the real world of science. Moreover, by acknowledging different blade geometry your 'evidence/experience' is utterly corrupted. You simply aren't comparing like with like.

I do agree with you that blade geometry will likely play a larger role. At least that is the one thing we can agree on...
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its only knife steel's buddy! CALM DOWN! when somebody says their own experience it means it is their result's its not scientific at all. and i would take real world experience over science any day. science says that the first run of s35vn was better than s30v and we all know how that went down
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
One may take a little longer (10, 15 minutes tops) to get sharp, but none are inherently "harder" to sharpen. YMMV
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I understand the semantics involved with this statement, however, it is harder to run a marathon than it is to run a mile at equal pace, and the majority of humans across the world will probably agree with that.

Effort, consistency, and fatigue are the factors that make super steels harder to sharpen.

Even for a professional sharpener, those factors still exist. They exist even more so for people who are inexperienced sharpeners.
 
The Government said:
I understand the semantics involved with this statement, however, it is harder to run a marathon than it is to run a mile at equal pace, and the majority of humans across the world will probably agree with that.

Effort, consistency, and fatigue are the factors that make super steels harder to sharpen.

Even for a professional sharpener, those factors still exist. They exist even more so for people who are inexperienced sharpeners.
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Trying to equate the difference between marathon/mile to 30 minutes sharpening/45minutes sharpening seems like a straw man to me.

The difference between 1 mile and a marathon is 25 miles, or 25x the distance. No steel on earth takes even close 25x as long to sharpen compared to a bottom of the barrel steel, at least not to someone using the right materials. Professional sharpener or not. :)
 
Im was not trying to estimate how many multiples harder one was than the other. My point is about consistency, effort, and fatigue. These factors make things harder to accomplish.

For a nube, sharpening can be a thing of luck. It is going to be easier for them to try their luck with 1095 @ 56 RC than it will be for them to try their luck with S90V at 62 RC. With a basic steel at a low hardness you become less fatigued, you remain more consistent, and you can put out less effort. This wont make a huge difference for experienced sharpeners, but it means the world for a nube.

CrimsonTideShooter said:
Trying to equate the difference between marathon/mile to 30 minutes sharpening/45minutes sharpening seems like a straw man to me.

The difference between 1 mile and a marathon is 25 miles, or 25x the distance. No steel on earth takes even close 25x as long to sharpen compared to a bottom of the barrel steel, at least not to someone using the right materials. Professional sharpener or not. :)
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The Government said:
Im was not trying to estimate how many multiples harder one was than the other. My point is about consistency, effort, and fatigue. These factors make things harder to accomplish.

For a nube, sharpening can be a thing of luck. It is going to be easier for them to try their luck with 1095 @ 56 RC than it will be for them to try their luck with S90V at 62 RC. With a basic steel at a low hardness you become less fatigued, you remain more consistent, and you can put out less effort. This wont make a huge difference for experienced sharpeners, but it means the world for a nube.
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But a new runner (generally speaking) doesn't start off with marathons. He or she practices, runs short races, and works their way up. Just as a new knife enthusiast (generally speaking again) doesn't start off with S90V or M390.
 
I am an electrician and a knife is a tool that I can't work without. My "super steel" work knives stay sharp longer than the regular steel knives I have used in the past. This means that I can go longer between sharpening which leaves more free time during the weekend for me. I sharpen with DMT diamond stones and have never been able to notice an appreciable difference between sharpening a super steel vs. carbon steel or a basic stainless steel. For me, using a super steel on a knife that will see hard use is a no brainer. The better steels just work better in my Experience.

On the other hand, I could carry a lesser steel in my after work and weekend EDC and probably not tell a difference. I choose to carry a super steel for these knives for the cool factor and the fact that I know its the best.
 
EagleScouter said:
But a new runner (generally speaking) doesn't start off with marathons. He or she practices, runs short races, and works their way up. Just as a new knife enthusiast (generally speaking again) doesn't start off with S90V or M390.
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I fully agree. My reasoning is that one is easier to accomplish than the other.
 
The Government said:
Im was not trying to estimate how many multiples harder one was than the other. My point is about consistency, effort, and fatigue. These factors make things harder to accomplish.

For a nube, sharpening can be a thing of luck. It is going to be easier for them to try their luck with 1095 @ 56 RC than it will be for them to try their luck with S90V at 62 RC. With a basic steel at a low hardness you become less fatigued, you remain more consistent, and you can put out less effort. This wont make a huge difference for experienced sharpeners, but it means the world for a nube.
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I'm picking up what you're putting down. :)
 
I just like to know I have the Lamborgini of the knife world in my pocket.. The cool factor.
 
The Government said:
I fully agree. My reasoning is that one is easier to accomplish than the other.
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Certainly. But sharpening 1095 should be easier/less time consuming for both newbies and longtime knife sharpeners. I think that the "difficulty gap" (and resulting time gap) between the two lessens with practice, which is the key thing here.
 
A lot depends on what you are doing with the knife. Stuff like 440A, AUS6, AUS8, etc... the edge fails by rolling or wearing away, super steels wear away slower, or the edge chips. Some times super steel is not better...I found that when whittling hardwood, a lot of super steels failed by chipping. Of D2, S30V, 154CM, 440V, 440C, and a carbon steel Opinel, all sharpened to the same angle on the same diamond and ceramic stones, and all whittling the same stick, only the 440C and the Opinel did not chip. All I know is since I started buying knives made from better steel, I sharpen a bit less often.
 
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