Super Steels: What's the point?

EagleScouter said:
Certainly. But sharpening 1095 should be easier/less time consuming for both newbies and longtime knife sharpeners. I think that the "difficulty gap" (and resulting time gap) between the two lessens with practice, which is the key thing here.
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Agreed. As skills develop, everything becomes easier. For the true sharpening experts, sharpening is almost as easy as breathing. They can make 50 identical passes over a stone at high speeds with no mistakes. For them, 50 more identical passes is a breeze (and maybe a pleasure).

For the record, I feel both "super" and "non-super" steels have their place.
 
My point EagleScouter is that these factors alone do not equate to edge holding.

I am aware of these charts but thanks for posting.

You're right my response was overly sarcastic and CrimsonTideShooter I apologize. I'm glad you don't seem to have taken my comments too seriously.

Ben
 
At the end of the day this whole entire thread is speculation. Unless all of the knife companies heat treat their knives EXACTLY the same, and the processes in which they make their knives are EXACTLY the same, you're going to have different results. Comparing Benchmade's S30V to CRK's S30V will give you different results; comparing Ed Fowlers 52100 to Bob Kramers 52100 will give you different results. So really, what's the point when it's all speculation anyway?
 
somber said:
At the end of the day this whole entire thread is speculation. Unless all of the knife companies heat treat their knives EXACTLY the same, and the processes in which they make their knives are EXACTLY the same, you're going to have different results. Comparing Benchmade's S30V to CRK's S30V will give you different results; comparing Ed Fowlers 52100 to Bob Kramers 52100 will give you different results. So really, what's the point when it's all speculation anyway?
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It's what we do on Bladeforums. We're hobbyists. And the other variables don't change the fact that steels do have different intrinsic properties. I doubt you'd take a big chopper in anyone's ZDP-189 over INFI, for example.

The other variables are harder to quantify & thus are harder to speculate about. The steels are more of a known quantity. We seem to gravitate to the more quantifiable properties. Maybe it's mental laziness. Car guys love horsepower numbers, for example. I'm sure others could spit out better analogies.
 
Even though my use of super steels is not scientifically quantifiable, the improvement in performance that I perceive in everyday use is hard to ignore. In fact it screams at me.
 
somber said:
At the end of the day this whole entire thread is speculation. Unless all of the knife companies heat treat their knives EXACTLY the same, and the processes in which they make their knives are EXACTLY the same, you're going to have different results. Comparing Benchmade's S30V to CRK's S30V will give you different results; comparing Ed Fowlers 52100 to Bob Kramers 52100 will give you different results. So really, what's the point when it's all speculation anyway?
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Not really speculation, but the variables are there, however the biggest variable is the people using the knives.

The Steels are what they are so taking into count a knife from a good reputable Company or Knife Maker along with a good solid HT and tempering process we can expect a certain level of performance out of the different steels.

However no amount of skill will turn 1095 into CPM 10V or AUS-8 into CPM S110V taking into count the above and proper hardness ranges.
 
I prefer a less "super" steel. I have dulled S30V in 2 cuts on rope. It lasted about as long as 8Cr13MoV. It took longer to resharpen in the field though. I prefer something that may not stay sharp as long but is easy to touch up in the field or reprofile at home. I actually use knives daily, sometimes hundreds of times per day. I don't do the backyard or basement tests on edge holding, or sharpen them so I can see myself in the polished edge. I shouldn't have to put a half hour into the end of my day resharpening some super steel, or have to spend a hundred plus dollars on a fancy sharpening system to make my knife work just to have it dull after 5 cuts.

I haven't used anything more "super" than S30V because that Military was enough to teach me that the steel doesn't make the knife. Shortly thereafter I used a Schrade trapper in 1095 that outcut pretty much anything I had in a more "super" steel. It sharpened up much easier as well...For a tool, user friendliness trumps the latest greatest fad steel to me. If I can sharpen it up with a couple of strokes on a diamond rod and get back to work I'm happy. Time is money and I'm not getting paid to sharpen knives :D
 
Pete1977 said:
I prefer a less "super" steel. I have dulled S30V in 2 cuts on rope. It lasted about as long as 8Cr13MoV. It took longer to resharpen in the field though. I prefer something that may not stay sharp as long but is easy to touch up in the field or reprofile at home. I actually use knives daily, sometimes hundreds of times per day. I don't do the backyard or basement tests on edge holding, or sharpen them so I can see myself in the polished edge. I shouldn't have to put a half hour into the end of my day resharpening some super steel, or have to spend a hundred plus dollars on a fancy sharpening system to make my knife work just to have it dull after 5 cuts.

I haven't used anything more "super" than S30V because that Military was enough to teach me that the steel doesn't make the knife. Shortly thereafter I used a Schrade trapper in 1095 that outcut pretty much anything I had in a more "super" steel. It sharpened up much easier as well...For a tool, user friendliness trumps the latest greatest fad steel to me. If I can sharpen it up with a couple of strokes on a diamond rod and get back to work I'm happy. Time is money and I'm not getting paid to sharpen knives :D
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IF 1095 is out performing S30V then there is a real issue someplace, likely in sharpening skill and or perception....

And I also use my knives daily at work..... And I might have to touch up the edge on S30V like once a week, takes a few mins.....

And no I don't use polished edges on my work knives.
 
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Ankerson said:
IF 1095 is out performing S30V then there is a real issue someplace, likely in sharpening skill and or perception....

And I also use my knives daily at work..... And I might have to touch up the edge on S30V like once a week, takes a few mins.....

And no I don't use polished edges on my work knives.
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there is no issue with my sharpening skills. :D I've been freehand sharpening since I was 12 and started commercial fishing. Both knives were sharpened on a lansky system though, and shaved hair readily. the 1095 outcut the S30V. It wasn't my "perception" :)

when you have to cut 200 knots out of a half mile of rope, you don't have the time to stop and take pics or video. and you definately don't have the time to stop and sharpen a knife. Quick touch-ups and back to work. That is why you don't see "super" steels on fishing boats.
 
Pete1977 said:
there is no issue with my sharpening skills. :D I've been freehand sharpening since I was 12 and started commercial fishing. Both knives were sharpened on a lansky system though, and shaved hair readily. the 1095 outcut the S30V. It wasn't my "perception" :)
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Like I said, that there is an issue if 1095 is out performing S30V.....

A real issue...

Something for you to figure out I guess what that might be. ;)
 
Ankerson said:
Like I said, that there is an issue if 1095 is out performing S30V.....

A real issue...

Something for you to figure out I guess what that might be. ;)
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and what would that issue be? you seem to be the expert and I'm just a noob... ;) if I had anything in S30V I'd take a video. there are miles of rope in the yard that need splicing...
 
Pete1977 said:
and what would that issue be? you seem to be the expert and I'm just a noob... ;) if I had anything in S30V I'd take a video. there are miles of rope in the yard that need splicing...
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What you are attempting to say goes against everything that is metallurgy, and sharpening and physics because the alloy content just isn't there in 1095 to out perform S30V.

And you are talking about a Schrade trapper slip joint in 1095 compared to a Military in S30V at 60 HRC.....

There is a real problem there with that.
 
Pete1977 said:
and what would that issue be? you seem to be the expert and I'm just a noob... ;) if I had anything in S30V I'd take a video. there are miles of rope in the yard that need splicing...
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You said it dulled in "2 cuts." That right there is most likely your issue. I suspect you saw S30 lose its razor edge in 2 cuts, then didn't continue on any further thinking it was done, when in reality it would have held a working (cutting) edge MUCH longer than 8CR or 1095.

You can't judge S30V based on 2 cuts like you said above, as it doesn't dull in the same way that the other two steels you listed do (1095, 8CR).
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
You said it dulled in "2 cuts." That right there is most likely your issue. I suspect you saw S30 lose its razor edge in 2 cuts, then didn't continue on any further thinking it was done, when in reality it would have held a working (cutting) edge MUCH longer than 8CR or 1095.

You can't judge S30V based on 2 cuts like you said above, as it doesn't dull in the same way that the other two steels you listed do (1095, 8CR).
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Exactly, S30V will continue to cut for a very long time after it loses that razor edge, it holds a level of sharpness (working edge) for a very long time.

That's what makes it such a good working steel.
 
Ankerson said:
What you are attempting to say goes against everything that is metallurgy, and sharpening and physics because the alloy content just isn't there in 1095 to out perform S30V.

And you are talking about a Schrade trapper slip joint in 1095 compared to a Military in S30V at 60 HRC.....

There is a real problem there with that.
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I'm not "attempting to say" anything. I AM saying that I cut knots out of 3/8 inch and 1/2 inch polypropylene, poly-dac, and nylon/poly rope with a Schrade trapper. it stayed sharper longer than a Spyderco Military. I was able to make more cuts with the Schrade with less effort, than with the military. Using the military I was able to make 2 cuts into Polysteel Atlantic brand high strength commercial fishing rope before the knife was dulled. Using the schrade for the same job, on the same type of rope, I was able to make significantly more cuts with ease, than I was able with the military.

CrimsonTideShooter said:
You said it dulled in "2 cuts." That right there is most likely your issue. I suspect you saw S30 lose its razor edge in 2 cuts, then didn't continue on any further thinking it was done, when in reality it would have held a working (cutting) edge MUCH longer than 8CR or 1095.

You can't judge S30V based on 2 cuts like you said above, as it doesn't dull in the same way that the other two steels you listed do (1095, 8CR).
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I'm not a scientist or a metallurgist. I have a knife that I use to cut rope. After 2 cuts with the military in S30V, it took more pressure and sawing action to cut the rope. Therefore I consider it dull and switched to another knife. Another time I used a Schrade Old Timer trapper to do the same work. I did not count the amount of cuts that I made since I was under the gun and had to get the rope spliced. I also did not think that my credibility would be called into issue by some "knife tester" on an internet forum. The Schrade trapper made many more effortless cuts than the Spyderco Military did. At the time I sharpened all of my knives using a Lansky system with oil stones at the same setting (the 20 degree setting i believe)

I'm not "judging" S30V. I am saying that I prefer a knife steel that I can make more cuts with longer, and expend less effort getting it back to my preferred level of sharpness. In my case, a less "super" steel is better. In my case, S30V did not make the cut. (pun intended)
 
Pete1977 said:
I'm not "attempting to say" anything. I AM saying that I cut knots out of 3/8 inch and 1/2 inch polypropylene, poly-dac, and nylon/poly rope with a Schrade trapper. it stayed sharper longer than a Spyderco Military. I was able to make more cuts with the Schrade with less effort, than with the military. Using the military I was able to make 2 cuts into Polysteel Atlantic brand high strength commercial fishing rope before the knife was dulled. Using the schrade for the same job, on the same type of rope, I was able to make significantly more cuts with ease, than I was able with the military.
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Likely a sharpening issue then, something going on with that edge.

There is no way that 1095 will out cut S30V on rope unless there was a problem.

If you lived close by I would prove it to you in person however many times you would need to see it on your rope with your knife compared to a basic S30V military that I sharpened.
 
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Pete1977 said:
I'm not "attempting to say" anything. I AM saying that I cut knots out of 3/8 inch and 1/2 inch polypropylene, poly-dac, and nylon/poly rope with a Schrade trapper. it stayed sharper longer than a Spyderco Military. I was able to make more cuts with the Schrade with less effort, than with the military. Using the military I was able to make 2 cuts into Polysteel Atlantic brand high strength commercial fishing rope before the knife was dulled. Using the schrade for the same job, on the same type of rope, I was able to make significantly more cuts with ease, than I was able with the military.


I'm not a scientist or a metallurgist. I have a knife that I use to cut rope. After 2 cuts with the military in S30V, it took more pressure and sawing action to cut the rope. Therefore I consider it dull and switched to another knife. Another time I used a Schrade Old Timer trapper to do the same work. I did not count the amount of cuts that I made since I was under the gun and had to get the rope spliced. I also did not think that my credibility would be called into issue by some "knife tester" on an internet forum. The Schrade trapper made many more effortless cuts than the Spyderco Military did. At the time I sharpened all of my knives using a Lansky system with oil stones at the same setting (the 20 degree setting i believe)

I'm not "judging" S30V. I am saying that I prefer a knife steel that I can make more cuts with longer, and expend less effort getting it back to my preferred level of sharpness. In my case, a less "super" steel is better. In my case, S30V did not make the cut. (pun intended)
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Keep in mind the edge geometry can have a MASSIVE impact on cutting performance, enough to negate steel differences in some cases.
 
mkjellgren said:
Keep in mind the edge geometry can have a MASSIVE impact on cutting performance, enough to negate steel differences in some cases.
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Yep, in the same way a POS but thin kitchen knife will continue cutting over a thicker knife with "better" steel.

I'm thinking geometry is what's going on here.
 
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