Bad Survive! Deserves A Permanent Post In The Hall Of Shame

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If you're going back to your question about 'did anyone not receive their knife' then you don't actually care about evidence because you can't prove a negative. If I start a company and sell you a television, by your logic as long as my company existed I could simply claim that it was being delayed and that you couldn't say you hadn't received it, just that you were still waiting. But here we have a mass of customers, even the Survive adherents and defenders, saying that they waited far, FAR beyond claimed delivery estimates and, for those that get tired of it, Survive came up with 'restocking fee' to punish those that request refunds rather than meet their legal obligations and offer refunds to everyone that waits for longer than the estimated delivery date.

Edited to add: If you're serious about reporting them to the FTC, you should be the first to do it. Go to 'Online Shopping' as your category and then you'll see an option 'I was not given opportunity to consent to delay or get a refund' and report them based on that.
example of what i mean and not at all a negative:


customer x paid for a GSO 2.7

SK claims they finished all GSO 2.7s

customer x never got the GSO 2.7

edit: so far i haven't seen evidence of a scam. every time i ask about examples,people change topics.
so far i've only seen evidence that they actually deliver (very,very late)
 
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Hang on sport. So you need "evidence" that people didn't get knives. What sort of evidence do you need? Are you going to travel to people's houses and they can show you they don't have the knives? That would would work right?

But wait, wait! What if they hid all the knives before you go there and lied to you?

This is a real conspiracy and obviously the good people at Survive delivered all those knives in person like Ed McMahon dropping off a Publisher's Clearinghouse novelty cheque.

You have clearly have the upper hand here.
you're using childs logic.

what do you do when you get ripped off,let's say on some webstore?

you file a complaint with postal servives,the FTC or whoever and you show prooof that you paid for the goods the seller then needs to prove that they've sent the product.right?
 
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After thinking about it, I do want to say that what I saw in the video did not give me confidence in the planning, managing, and organizing capabilities of this company. I do not doubt the presenters are working hard, but they did not provide the information I would want to see to have confidence in their ability to manage this project and deliver knives.

What I would suggest for them, instead of discussions about the chaos of the past, who is a stinker, and who got shafted, show that they have a plan, and are working towards clearing their back log.

Such as posting a weekly video that first of all, details how many knives, of what model they expect to deliver this week. I assume that those with the oldest orders would receive those first, and they could say, we are finishing and will be shipping model X, for back orders dated Jan through July 2015.

Then, a discussion of what is in process. This requires a study of the process flow, and that cannot be that difficult, for a knife. So, have X handles for y model being made, and those should be completed by such and such date. To be followed by z handles for model y1, which is anticipated to take X days. Then the X blades of y model are being ground, to be completed by such and such a date, and then they will be shipped to heat treatment and will be completed by such and such a date.

Survive! Should present something that shows they know the in process times, the quantities of parts in process, and how long it takes to start production, and finish production, on every batch of knives. That would provide some confidence that they are actually managing their production line, and not reacting to wild fires. And I think, if depositors heard this, knew which models were in production, which are coming next, an idea of the time through the line, and know the number being shipped each week, that would give everyone confidence that they are making knives, and that everyone will get the knife they ordered.

And once the back log is met, end the weekly videos! But till then, give everyone confidence that they know how to manage a project!
 

Quiet

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how do i figure?

just my personal opinion,which is subjective since i don't know their profit margin,production numbers etc.

the knife feels really solid and is a great cutter. i used it hard and so far no damages.

how do you know it's not worth the money they ask for? have you ever used one?

also,outsourcing production steps usually ramps up the cost of a product.

I do indeed own one, and it's no better than many other fixed blades I own. Additionally, the point I was making about all that outsourcing is that S?K fans go on and on about what a great product Guy "makes", when in actuality, he makes nothing at all. Hilarious, really.
 

Quiet

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just watched the video...felt a bit like a defendand with his lawyer.

calling their critics on BF keyboard-warriors with no real jobs and lives is just wrong and not very professional.

It's because they are shills and are in a constant state of damage control, since their livelihood depends on people being dumb and continuing to give them money.
 
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After thinking about it, I do want to say that what I saw in the video did not give me confidence in the planning, managing, and organizing capabilities of this company. I do not doubt the presenters are working hard, but they did not provide the information I would want to see to have confidence in their ability to manage this project and deliver knives.

What I would suggest for them, instead of discussions about the chaos of the past, who is a stinker, and who got shafted, show that they have a plan, and are working towards clearing their back log.

Such as posting a weekly video that first of all, details how many knives, of what model they expect to deliver this week. I assume that those with the oldest orders would receive those first, and they could say, we are finishing and will be shipping model X, for back orders dated Jan through July 2015.

Then, a discussion of what is in process. This requires a study of the process flow, and that cannot be that difficult, for a knife. So, have X handles for y model being made, and those should be completed by such and such date. To be followed by z handles for model y1, which is anticipated to take X days. Then the X blades of y model are being ground, to be completed by such and such a date, and then they will be shipped to heat treatment and will be completed by such and such a date.

Survive! Should present something that shows they know the in process times, the quantities of parts in process, and how long it takes to start production, and finish production, on every batch of knives. That would provide some confidence that they are actually managing their production line, and not reacting to wild fires. And I think, if depositors heard this, knew which models were in production, which are coming next, an idea of the time through the line, and know the number being shipped each week, that would give everyone confidence that they are making knives, and that everyone will get the knife they ordered.

And once the back log is met, end the weekly videos! But till then, give everyone confidence that they know how to manage a project!
+this

from a business standpoint,that video was horrible.

it would indeed build confidence with customers if they did that. why don't they publish their production numbers? what are the risks if the did?
 
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I do indeed own one, and it's no better than many other fixed blades I own. Additionally, the point I was making about all that outsourcing is that S?K fans go on and on about what a great product Guy "makes", when in actuality, he makes nothing at all. Hilarious, really.
i think he does now,doesn't he? at least from what i saw in the videos (just assuming)
It's because they are shills and are in a constant state of damage control, since their livelihood depends on people being dumb and continuing to give them money.
i agree,they are in constant damage control and they partially brought it up to themselves.

to be fair,there were some outside factors that made it worse,like the handles that warped,the fire amd so on.
 

Insipid Moniker

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example of what i mean and not at all a negative:


customer x paid for a GSO 2.7

SK claims they finished all GSO 2.7s

customer x never got the GSO 2.7

edit: so far i haven't seen evidence of a scam. every time i ask about examples,people change topics.
so far i've only seen evidence that they actually deliver (very,very late)
Have they ever claimed this? Because I've only seen them claim completion on specific runs, never that they've delivered all of X model that anyone has ordered. I'd very much like to see your evidence for that claim. I also note that you ignored the fact that you should be the first one to file an FTC complaint.
 

Quiet

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no,i am not one of "the folks"

i wanted to know if anybody here knew of cases where people didn't receive their knife because i got worried if i might got scammed by SK.

nobody could point me to such cases and then some started calling me a shill for asking questions.
In fact, this research HAS already been done, and it's what resulted in them getting their scammer asses kicked to the curb. I am not going to do your research for you and I'm not apologizing because there's no two second sound bite for you.

Instead, let me ask you this question that would lead any objective party to the same understanding we all have. If you gave me $200 and I told you I was going to give you a product in a set amount of item, yet instead of giving you that product, I started seeking new deposits on NEW products, and people even reported receiving these new products, all before you'd been given the product that YOU paid for, how would you feel? S?K has always been a small shop, so it's a known factor that they have a small, limited number of staff. Therefore, it's an absolutely easy extrapolation to understand that if this small limited staff was working on new products, they WEREN'T working on the product you had already paid for, because a super small limited team of employees can't be in two places at once, true? The fact that this happened multiple times, while people were left waiting for three, four, five, six(!!?) years for knives they'd paid for is why these guys are seen as scumbags, and S?K seen as a Ponzi scheme. Simple as that. You are free to go back through all the old threads (including the early pages of this one) where these timelines were mapped out.
 

Insipid Moniker

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i think he does now,doesn't he? at least from what i saw in the videos (just assuming)

i agree,they are in constant damage control and they partially brought it up to themselves.

to be fair,there were some outside factors that made it worse,like the handles that warped,the fire amd so on.
Yes, the fire that was definitely an outside factor and not at all insurance fraud. Definitely just an 'unfortunate' accident that occurred to an insured building they purchased but hadn't moved anything into yet. Real stroke of luck, that.
 

Quiet

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i think he does now,doesn't he? at least from what i saw in the videos (just assuming)

i agree,they are in constant damage control and they partially brought it up to themselves.

to be fair,there were some outside factors that made it worse,like the handles that warped,the fire amd so on.
Does he? Who knows? Indeed, the reason they got involved with Millit in the first place is because they were making multiple components for S?K. And let me tell you, you can buy all the machines and equipment you want, and show videos and pics of it, and people standing at them, but that isn't proof of anything, in my estimation. I maintain that these guys are frauds.
 

Quiet

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After thinking about it, I do want to say that what I saw in the video did not give me confidence in the planning, managing, and organizing capabilities of this company. I do not doubt the presenters are working hard, but they did not provide the information I would want to see to have confidence in their ability to manage this project and deliver knives.

What I would suggest for them, instead of discussions about the chaos of the past, who is a stinker, and who got shafted, show that they have a plan, and are working towards clearing their back log.

Such as posting a weekly video that first of all, details how many knives, of what model they expect to deliver this week. I assume that those with the oldest orders would receive those first, and they could say, we are finishing and will be shipping model X, for back orders dated Jan through July 2015.

Then, a discussion of what is in process. This requires a study of the process flow, and that cannot be that difficult, for a knife. So, have X handles for y model being made, and those should be completed by such and such date. To be followed by z handles for model y1, which is anticipated to take X days. Then the X blades of y model are being ground, to be completed by such and such a date, and then they will be shipped to heat treatment and will be completed by such and such a date.

Survive! Should present something that shows they know the in process times, the quantities of parts in process, and how long it takes to start production, and finish production, on every batch of knives. That would provide some confidence that they are actually managing their production line, and not reacting to wild fires. And I think, if depositors heard this, knew which models were in production, which are coming next, an idea of the time through the line, and know the number being shipped each week, that would give everyone confidence that they are making knives, and that everyone will get the knife they ordered.

And once the back log is met, end the weekly videos! But till then, give everyone confidence that they know how to manage a project!
Given how many times Ellie posted up here claiming that they had indeed gotten a handle on everything you speak to here, only to show that no, none of that had happened, shows that at this point no one would (or should) believe any such claims from them now.
 

Insipid Moniker

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Given how many times Ellie posted up here claiming that they had indeed gotten a handle on everything you speak to here, only to show that no, none of that had happened, shows that at this point no one would (or should) believe any such claims from them now.
This a part of why I feel the approach of, "Well, they haven't actually failed to deliver yet," is so patently ridiculous and shillish. They've lied about their time lines, how close they are to being caught up with orders, restock fees, pre-order seconds and such continually. They are dishonest, there's no other accurate descriptor. If you feel comfortable doing business with a fundamentally dishonest business, one that has proven their dishonesty time and again, to be perfectly frank, you're a damned fool.
 

Boru13

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Mods,can we please change the Bladeforums subtitle from "the leading edge of knife discussion" to "never pay upfront" so us fiscally irresponsible people don't get upset when we get scammed?
No need to change anything, if you don't like how BF's is being run feel free to leave. I'm sure SURVIVE! is active on other social media sites where they control the narrative that's more suited to your line of thinking.
i'm asking because they were reprted to the BBB.
wouldn't the BBB report them or take legal steps?

or is the BBB a NGO with no legal power?
Since you mentioned the BBB.
 

mlmcasual

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BBB has no legal power. The FTC is the body that would need to get involved. As to why they haven't, I have no solid idea. I'm guessing it's a combination of customers being unfamiliar with the rule and not knowing who to report to and the fact that Survive is a very, very small fish for the FTC.
A few years ago I found it astounding that the FTC had not stepped in. I was left with only two explanations 1) SK customers got a refund so none have actually filed a complaint. 2) The blatant lawless state of the USA means the FTC knowingly allow "small fish" ponzi scammers to go unchecked and are too tied up with hardcore fraud. The FTC probably has a huge backlog of classic organized criminal enterprises that would make SK look like choir boys in comparison. Sad but true state of our country.
And that would mean it's really upon watchdog advocates like BF to inform consumers. This is why BF is to be commended for stopping the shilling from attempting to usurp this role.
 
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benchwarmer380

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no,i am not one of "the folks"

i wanted to know if anybody here knew of cases where people didn't receive their knife because i got worried if i might got scammed by SK.

nobody could point me to such cases and then some started calling me a shill for asking questions.


Post #903 reports of a newsletter the company sent out to their email list with the percentages of orders completed.
They themselves admit that they have outstanding orders from 5-6 years ago. Those are people that have not received their knives.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...st-in-the-hall-of-shame.1613748/post-20601920
 
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If anyone took the time to just glance and browse this thread for about 10-15 minutes. It is clear what the problem is with this company. The latest video is an attempt to create a façade of "everything is alright. It's like listening to a crackhead going to jail. It's pathetic.

I am a believer in not kicking a man when he's down. But when that guy has been knocked down from his own evil doing and then keeps getting up doing the same thing he was knocked down for. It becomes deserving. If I could give S!K one piece of advise if they want to right the wrongs... It would be to STFU and make knives. Once you have proven you can make good on promises then and only then can you come out and say. "We're not like that anymore... See!"
 

Insipid Moniker

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If anyone took the time to just glance and browse this thread for about 10-15 minutes. It is clear what the problem is with this company. The latest video is an attempt to create a façade of "everything is alright. It's like listening to a crackhead going to jail. It's pathetic.

I am a believer in not kicking a man when he's down. But when that guy has been knocked down from his own evil doing and then keeps getting up doing the same thing he was knocked down for. It becomes deserving. If I could give S!K one piece of advise if they want to right the wrongs... It would be to STFU and make knives. Once you have proven you can make good on promises then and only then can you come out and say. "We're not like that anymore... See!"
Yeah, this is where I'm at. I'll never have enough confidence in the people behind the company to do business with them, but if they shut up and fulfilled all their outstanding orders (and started operating legally in regards to shipping times and refunds) there wouldn't be much to fuel a thread like this.

Hell, even just owning their own mistakes rather than blaming anyone and everyone they can would be a huge start. I'm honestly pretty forgiving of mistakes, but they never acknowledge the mistakes they've made and their own culpability in their terrible reputation and I don't think you can fix those issues if you don't first accept responsibility for them.
 

Quiet

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Yeah, this is where I'm at. I'll never have enough confidence in the people behind the company to do business with them, but if they shut up and fulfilled all their outstanding orders (and started operating legally in regards to shipping times and refunds) there wouldn't be much to fuel a thread like this.

Hell, even just owning their own mistakes rather than blaming anyone and everyone they can would be a huge start. I'm honestly pretty forgiving of mistakes, but they never acknowledge the mistakes they've made and their own culpability in their terrible reputation and I don't think you can fix those issues if you don't first accept responsibility for them.

And by "owning their mistakes", it needs to be along the lines of an actual confession, not more fluffer from Chief of Flufferization Ellie. Here, I'll even type it up so they can copy and paste for their own use:

"To everyone who knows of our company, and to all past, current, or prospective clients. My wife Ellie and I do not know how to properly run a business, balance books, create and work from a budget, or properly plan and execute product lines, and WE PERSONALLY have made many, many mistakes which have resulted in years of backlog. Also, we asked for payment up front, which we did not correctly manage, and misspent a lot of the money. I, Guy Dbag, and Ellie Dbag PERSONALLY and sincerely apologize. To clarify, the "We" in this statement refers to only myself, Guy Dbag, and my wife, Ellie Dbag. These issues are not the fault of ANY of our past, present, or prospective future employees, vendors, or professional partners. All blame lies squarely on myself, and my wife.

Instead of empty platitudes about "turning things around" and fluff language about "streamlining processes" or "implementing new work methodologies" or any other lingo that means absolutely nothing concrete, I will tell you what specifically we have done to get ourselves straightened out. Up until the moment I sat down to write this, my employees and I have worked million hour days to get every single order we have ever had up to this moment filled, and shipped. At this point, we have zeroed our books out, and delivered every single knife that we have been paid for. No one should be without a knife at this point, if you did not receive your knife or knives, please contact me immediately so we can get you that knife, or an immediate refund, whichever you prefer. There will be NO "restocking fee", as I now understand it's essentially fraudulent to charge a restocking fee on something that was never created, something for which, again I, Guy Dbag personally apologize.

From this moment forward, we will ask for a 15% deposit on all new orders, and will operate with transparency. We will complete entire runs of knives before we start building so much as a prototype of a different or new model, ensuring that we won't have customers who are waiting for old or current products, watching as we turn our hands instead to new products instead of building what they paid for. We now understand there are only 24 hours in a day, and we cannot be in multiple places at once, nor can we build multiple models at once. We have other steps in our manufacturing and making processes to iron out, which I, Guy Dbag will personally implement and oversee, and I will reach out with another newsletter defining in detail exactly what those are once they are finalized."

I could go on, but I think everyone gets the point. If Guy and Ellie actually released a statement along these exact lines, and I do mean exactly, they just might get somewhere. Ellie needs to can the use of the royal "We" in all her emails, and hey, I know why they do it, because she thinks it makes them sound like a big, professional business concern that's a relevant, valid, solid, dependable, corporate entity instead of what they actually are: a husband and wife team with like, three employees who are years behind on orders of an extremely simple product to make, not friggin' Benchmade or Busse. Jerry has always made it clear in all his communication with fans and customers that HE, JERRY BUSSE is at the helm.

Apologize. Can the royal "We" BS, make people whole, change your whole business model, and then shut up, and do the job. Simple as that.
 

dogboye

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Yes, I looked at the prices, not cheap. But many custom knife makers want a full deposit up front, and they will take years to deliver. Wish I had put a full deposit down on a Loveless, might have been many years, but, look at how much his knives have gone up.
But most custom knife makers (all that I have dealt with) either run a constant backlog, so when they tell you you'll get your knife by XXX, you will get your knife by XXX, give or take a week or so. And they are made personally by the custom maker. Generally, I've seen custom makers stop taking orders when they can't keep up a constant backlog. I have also had one custom maker (actually, I think, two) that misplaced my orders, or somehow didn't deliver. When I contacted them to ask about it (and these were makers that didn't take full payment up front, just deposits, if that), they fessed up that they had made a mistake, and in both cases, finished the knife and sent it, refusing to take payment because of their mistake. One was a well known maker, very successful. One was starting out, trying to get a base. That is why a good custom maker's knives increase in value.

There's a 50 page thread here and you're wondering if there are cases where people didn't get their knives they paid for years ago?
Really?
Right here. Paid 5+ years ago. Still waiting. Supposedly it will be done before Christmas. I posted in the comments on their video several times. If I get the knife on their new timeline, I'll take their word that they have STARTED to change things around. If not...

Such as posting a weekly video that first of all, details ....
Personally, I'd prefer they spend their time making knives.

And by "owning their mistakes", it needs to be along the lines of an actual confession, not more fluffer from Chief of Flufferization Ellie. Here, I'll even type it up so they can copy and paste for their own use:

"To everyone who knows of our company, and to all past, current, or prospective clients. My wife Ellie and I do not know how to properly run a business, balance books, create and work from a budget, or properly plan and execute product lines, and WE PERSONALLY have made many, many mistakes which have resulted in years of backlog. Also, we asked for payment up front, which we did not correctly manage, and misspent a lot of the money. I, Guy Dbag, and Ellie Dbag PERSONALLY and sincerely apologize. To clarify, the "We" in this statement refers to only myself, Guy Dbag, and my wife, Ellie Dbag. These issues are not the fault of ANY of our past, present, or prospective future employees, vendors, or professional partners. All blame lies squarely on myself, and my wife.

Instead of empty platitudes about "turning things around" and fluff language about "streamlining processes" or "implementing new work methodologies" or any other lingo that means absolutely nothing concrete, I will tell you what specifically we have done to get ourselves straightened out. Up until the moment I sat down to write this, my employees and I have worked million hour days to get every single order we have ever had up to this moment filled, and shipped. At this point, we have zeroed our books out, and delivered every single knife that we have been paid for. No one should be without a knife at this point, if you did not receive your knife or knives, please contact me immediately so we can get you that knife, or an immediate refund, whichever you prefer. There will be NO "restocking fee", as I now understand it's essentially fraudulent to charge a restocking fee on something that was never created, something for which, again I, Guy Dbag personally apologize.

From this moment forward, we will ask for a 15% deposit on all new orders, and will operate with transparency. We will complete entire runs of knives before we start building so much as a prototype of a different or new model, ensuring that we won't have customers who are waiting for old or current products, watching as we turn our hands instead to new products instead of building what they paid for. We now understand there are only 24 hours in a day, and we cannot be in multiple places at once, nor can we build multiple models at once. We have other steps in our manufacturing and making processes to iron out, which I, Guy Dbag will personally implement and oversee, and I will reach out with another newsletter defining in detail exactly what those are once they are finalized."

I could go on, but I think everyone gets the point. If Guy and Ellie actually released a statement along these exact lines, and I do mean exactly, they just might get somewhere. Ellie needs to can the use of the royal "We" in all her emails, and hey, I know why they do it, because she thinks it makes them sound like a big, professional business concern that's a relevant, valid, solid, dependable, corporate entity instead of what they actually are: a husband and wife team with like, three employees who are years behind on orders of an extremely simple product to make, not friggin' Benchmade or Busse. Jerry has always made it clear in all his communication with fans and customers that HE, JERRY BUSSE is at the helm.

Apologize. Can the royal "We" BS, make people whole, change your whole business model, and then shut up, and do the job. Simple as that.
That is owning your problem, and correcting it. They could learn something from you.
 
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