Take-Downs, Make sense?

Kevin, et al,
Just stepped in the back door to grab a glass of orange juice, and here's an opportunity to waste some working time! What am I working on?-an 11 1/2" all damascus,Bark Elephant Ivory scaled, frame-handled, shell-guard, TAKE-DOWN Bowie for Jerry's. Why, why why...

I've done both working take-downs, and collector ones. The working ones were done somewhat like Karl A's, with solid handles, where the tang was waxed and cast for a perfect fit. Then, with a screw on fineal, I felt that the knife was solid enough to withstand chopping. Advantage over a fully glued up handle...to me, not too much. A working knife glued up with a structural epoxy is easily cleaned, and can be "repaired" to a working level easily.

The engraved "Legacy" Kevin posted, and this one I'm working on are a bit different. They're full take-downs, even to seperating the scales from frame. There's definitely the "cool" factor here. And yes, I've received the late-nite call from a collector saying,"I just took this baby apart all the way, and put it back together. How cool is that?"

There is also the very practical ability to send parts to the engraver, or back to me for work.Both those things have been done with my knives.John Fitch once told me he never made a blued finish knife that wasn't take-down, because it would eventually have to be re-blued. You don't cut with the barrel of the average blued gun. (Except for maybe Bruce's)

Now I would tell anyone looking at a full take-down, separating scale, Ivory handled knife, that it ain't for chopping. A stress analysis would show point loads on the corners of the Ivory scales as the handle loaded and unloaded in compression and tension. Col. Bowie would still be able to stab or slash away on that sand-bar, however.

For me, then, it's the cool factor for fancy knives, with a real advantage to engraving and repair.

Speaking of take-downs, I'd better grab that juice, and go fit the butt-cap and thread the tang for the fineal.

John
 
Kevin Jones said:


Roger, have you done much skinning? Especially larger game? And I doubt if anyone would try to take down a knife around the campfire for cleaning. Most likely done after the hunting trip.

I agree that considering the precise handle/guard/blade fit-up on a Fisk Sendero, there wouldn't be much of an advantage, however I have skinned with outer hunters where dis-assembling for cleaning would have been quite an advantage.
Click to expand...


1) No.

2) That's merely re-stating your point. HOW is the take-down going to get a more thorough cleaning? Keeping in mind that the interior of non take-down won't need cleaning? In what way is the take down giving you "quite an advantage" in terms of cleaning?

Surely you must compare apples to apples. If either is poorly made, it will be disadvantaged as against the other for that reason alone. If you are assuming a precise fit and finish for both pieces, where does the advantage lie for the take-down?

Roger
 
Very informative post John - and I can't wait to see the take-down you are working on. :thumbup:

Roger
 
When Karl Anderson did his JS test at my shop, he brought a take down knife. He wanted to show the strength of the construction. I was impressed!

As a folder maker for many years, I kind of like making fixed blades with no moving parts :D
 
RogerP said:
What benefit would that be, Paul? I've heard it suggested that it makes cleaning easier, but that seems counter-intuitive to me. With the fixed handle piece that's good and slimy from use, you have one piece to clean. Breaking that knife down into several parts, cleaning / oiling and re-assembling those parts doesn't strike me as "easier" - and seems to invite more potential problems if you don't get everything cleaned / oiled properly before you put it back together again. And doing so in the field creates the risk of some small but important metal bit getting lost in the process - not good.

I think of two of the most widely successful hunter designs in the custom knife realm - the Loveless Drop Point and the Fisk Sendero. In what functional way would either knife be measurably improved by rendering it as a take-down?

Roger
Click to expand...

Roger, I think my shorthand may have given you a misimpression. I was typing while you were posting your original comments. I, therefore, did not have the benefit of those comments that I share. I was thinking in terms of a bolstered hunter and not a guarded hunter such as the Loveless and Fisk examples you cite above. And the "benefit" I was thinking of was that dirt/contamination could get under a bolster whereas, solder tends to keep a guarded hunter much less prone to dirt/contamination. A take-down hunter with a bolster could be cleaned. I certainly did not mean to imply that this benefit outweighed what you rightly state as "potential problems." Ease of cleaning never came to mind. As you state, "that seems counter-intuitive to me", an opinion I share 100%!

Hope these words clarify.

Paul :foot:
 
I wouldn't want a take-down nice specifically because I know it would cost more and I have no need to take a fixed blade knife apart. If it is fitted tightly and epoxied in place there shouldn't be anything getting inside corroding it which is all that matters to me.

That said I do think they are very cool and if I found what I thought was the perfect knife and it was a take-down it wouldn't discourage me from buying it.

I've been day dreaming about buying a couple hand made fixed blade knives when time permits, and non of my day dreams have been about take downs. I sure like the pictures though! Very impressive craftsmanship.

Austin
 
blad5 said:
Roger, I think my shorthand may have given you a misimpression. I was typing while you were posting your original comments. I, therefore, did not have the benefit of those comments that I share. I was thinking in terms of a bolstered hunter and not a guarded hunter such as the Loveless and Fisk examples you cite above. And the "benefit" I was thinking of was that dirt/contamination could get under a bolster whereas, solder tends to keep a guarded hunter much less prone to dirt/contamination. A take-down hunter with a bolster could be cleaned. I certainly did not mean to imply that this benefit outweighed what you rightly state as "potential problems." Ease of cleaning never came to mind. As you state, "that seems counter-intuitive to me", an opinion I share 100%!

Hope these words clarify.

Paul :foot:
Click to expand...

Reading you loud and clear Paul - thanks.

Roger
 
Doug C said:
How many of them were fixed blades ?...
..and how many Customs ?

Doug
Click to expand...



no fixed blades, all folders, all customs, not sure of a number but knives by Ken Onion, Tim Galyean, Mayo, Blackwood, Burke, Strider, Emerson, Munroe, Centofante, Snody, Sibert, Bogi, Marfione, just to name some of the makers.

Sorry, not trying to derail Aristotles thread,, just answering a question.
 
John White said:
Kevin, et al,
Just stepped in the back door to grab a glass of orange juice, and here's an opportunity to waste some working time! What am I working on?-an 11 1/2" all damascus,Bark Elephant Ivory scaled, frame-handled, shell-guard, TAKE-DOWN Bowie for Jerry's. Why, why why...

I've done both working take-downs, and collector ones. The working ones were done somewhat like Karl A's, with solid handles, where the tang was waxed and cast for a perfect fit. Then, with a screw on fineal, I felt that the knife was solid enough to withstand chopping. Advantage over a fully glued up handle...to me, not too much. A working knife glued up with a structural epoxy is easily cleaned, and can be "repaired" to a working level easily.

The engraved "Legacy" Kevin posted, and this one I'm working on are a bit different. They're full take-downs, even to seperating the scales from frame. There's definitely the "cool" factor here. And yes, I've received the late-nite call from a collector saying,"I just took this baby apart all the way, and put it back together. How cool is that?"

There is also the very practical ability to send parts to the engraver, or back to me for work.Both those things have been done with my knives.John Fitch once told me he never made a blued finish knife that wasn't take-down, because it would eventually have to be re-blued. You don't cut with the barrel of the average blued gun. (Except for maybe Bruce's)

Now I would tell anyone looking at a full take-down, separating scale, Ivory handled knife, that it ain't for chopping. A stress analysis would show point loads on the corners of the Ivory scales as the handle loaded and unloaded in compression and tension. Col. Bowie would still be able to stab or slash away on that sand-bar, however.

For me, then, it's the cool factor for fancy knives, with a real advantage to engraving and repair.

Speaking of take-downs, I'd better grab that juice, and go fit the butt-cap and thread the tang for the fineal.

John
Click to expand...

Thanks John, just the kind of information I had hoped for. Now get back to work. ;):) We want to see that beauty @ Jerry's in exactly 14 days. :D :)

RogerP said:
1) No.

2) That's merely re-stating your point. HOW is the take-down going to get a more thorough cleaning? Keeping in mind that the interior of non take-down won't need cleaning? In what way is the take down giving you "quite an advantage" in terms of cleaning?
Surely you must compare apples to apples. If either is poorly made, it will be disadvantaged as against the other for that reason alone. If you are assuming a precise fit and finish for both pieces, where does the advantage lie for the take-down?

Roger
Click to expand...

Disassembling offers an advantage in cleaning where blood/fats accumulate and dries along the seam lines/joints of the guard and racasso intersection (even if not up inside). And especially where stag and ramhorn (my preferred handle materials for hunters because of it's sure grip when wet) are textured where/if it joints the guard/ferrule. Being able to remove the guard makes these areas much more accessible for cleaning. Wasn't trying to be a smart ass in asking if you have done any skinning, just not sure you realize what a mess the knife is in not only when finished but after the trip and you see all the dried gunk you missed removing while in the field.

Now granted, I'm a little "nuts" in regard to keeping my knives and guns very clean. Even the ones I use.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Disassembling offers an advantage in cleaning where blood/fats accumulate and dries along the seam lines/joints of the guard and racasso intersection (even if not up inside). And especially where stag and ramhorn (my preferred handle materials for hunters because of it's sure grip when wet) are textured where/if it joints the guard/ferrule. Being able to remove the guard makes these areas much more accessible for cleaning. Wasn't trying to be a smart ass in asking if you have done any skinning, just not sure you realize what a mess the knife is in not only when finished but after the trip and you see all the dried gunk you missed removing while in the field.

Now granted, I'm a little "nuts" in regard to keeping my knives and guns very clean. Even the ones I use.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess I can see at least some of that. While I haven't cleaned fat / blood off of a hunting knife, I have re-finished a guard and blade on a glued-up fixed blade hunter - which is arguably more involved than cleaning alone. If I could get to all the surfaces to re-finish them, I expect I could get to those same surfaces well enough to clean them even without the benefit of taking the whole thing apart.

Still waiting to hear on the relative moisture resistance - for lack of a better term - of the two methods. IF the glued up handle is superior in this respect (and I don't know that it is, but I suspect so) then that WOULD be a significant practical benefit, IMHO.

Roger
 
As a guy who made a reasonable living for awhile gunsmithing, I can picture in my mind the guy walking in with a bag of knife parts. "Can you put this back together for me? I'm not sure all the parts are there."
 
here is a picture of another take apart knife,the collaboration knife for vampire gerbil. i ground the blade and matt cook (pinoy knife) finished it up and made the sheath. the one i made is also a take apart.
orig.jpg
orig.jpg
 
Personally, don't think I would care for a "full take-down" knife as it no doubt adds a measure of complexity across the board. And I'm not sure if or how much structural integrity is compromised.
I prefer the frame and handle scales to remain in tact with the pummel, spacers/ferrule and guard disassembling.

I would like to ask makers if in fact they do charge more for a take-down piece?
Granted it's more work/expertise, however I don't think there's been a case where I have been able to see where a particular take-down knife from a particular maker cost more than his/her similar fixed-assembly knife. I may be wrong.
 
I like them mostly for the COOL factor. The advantage for engraving is significant also in my opinion as I like engraving.

I've admired Jim Siiska's takedowns for years and had the chance to see Karl B's at Blade this year, they were VERY cool also. I especially like when a precision tool comes with it for disassembly.

Peter
 
Kevin Jones said:
Personally, don't think I would care for a "full take-down" knife as it no doubt adds a measure of complexity across the board.
My take-downs are a pure example of simplicity. I will admit, however, that they are NOT of the extreme frame-handled variey with waaaaaaaay too many parts.

And I'm not sure if or how much structural integrity is compromised.
None. At least not in mine. See Don's post above.

I would like to ask makers if in fact they do charge more for a take-down piece?
Not a penny.
As even my fixed assembly knives are created in exactly the same way, right up to the point of that word that is so difficult to say - epoxy.

Granted it's more work/expertise, however I don't think there's been a case where I have been able to see where a particular take-down knife from a particular maker cost more than his/her similar fixed-assembly knife. I may be wrong.
Click to expand...
It's only more work and expertise on the front end.
The big secret is that by being able to work the pieces individually, a great deal of work is SAVED on down the line.
The trick is to become proficient at it, because a take-down knife POORLY executed in the beginning is a NIGHTMARE later on during construction.
You all here are familiar with my knives.
I began beating these take-downs to DEATH back in '03, and have continued ever since.
When I started doing them, with the help of Jerry Rados, there were so many questions asked about all the whys and what-fors, I almost got tired of answering them and wore out two cameras just taking step-by-step pictures for everyone to see.
When people saw the word "take-down" in my posts, most people here didn't even know what they were. Kevin, you even chased me down at the '06 Blade Show to have me show you how one of my knives came apart. Remember? I was sitting over in the Hand-made section with Richard Wright.
That is just a couple of years ago and now they are almost common place.
No one will ever convince me that I did not have something - if not a great deal - to do with their popularity today.
Here last year, there was even an article in Blade mag called "knife puzzles" I think. In the article they mentioned something about one of the featured makers utilizing a "mechanical innovation" if I recall that correctly. It was the alignment pins. I had to laugh. Jerry had been using those since the late 80s and taught me that 6 years ago.
Since I started that, I have seen so many variations on what I showed, that it, to some degree, makes me feel good.
Kevin mentioned something very important up above here. About it being more work and expertise.
Consider a multi-part knife like the one shown here. Look at all the mating surfaces. There is no - there's that word again - epoxy to fill in any voids. It can't be done just "close". "Close" doesn't work. All surfaces need to FIT and FIT RIGHT so that even LIGHT can't come through. Nothing's gonna get filled.
I reference that in contrast to a method I see so many guys do that involves the undercutting of the side of the ricasso to hide the "fit" of the guard slot on the sides.
I just think that's a sloppy short cut.
Make the dang guard to fit for cryin' outloud.
There is a deffinite expertise and "pace" that needs to be set for creating even a simple take-down knife.
But once completed, it offers pure satisfaction.
I have litterally beat some of my knives to death and have yet to find even the slightest bit of undue wear or fatigue.
They allow the owner the opportunity to truly participate in the health and well-being of his knife.
I have to really knock on a big ol' piece of wood here, but in the last 6 years, I have yet to get even one knife back for any kind of repair, and on top of that, have never even received a complaint.
They are tough, they work well.
I will make them as long as I make knives.
Good thread, Kevin. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

stb1-1.jpg


stb2-1.jpg
 
Last edited:
I thought of a couple of other take-down knives that aren't on the tip of our tongues:

Jerry Rados also built a folder with his own screws and tools:
orig.jpg


Dan Graves built a dagger with replaceable quillions and pommel spire. Both are shown with some 'trick' photography....
orig.jpg


Obviously, these were made with Nick's solid assessment of 'Cool Factor'. :thumbup:

Coop
 
I like take downs and the biggest benefit I can see to a take down is that it makes it easier to refinish a blade especialy to put a hand rubbed or sanded finish I think we have all tried to do that and found that where the guard meets the blade it would be alot easier without the guard there. To reetch a damascus blade or a blade with a temper line is alot simpler with a takedown blade

On the down side I can see fluid either water or body fluids from skinning or useing the knife in wet weather would find it's way into a takedown knife easier than one with a soldered guard. Not that it would be a big issue but there would be more chance of seeping with a takedown.

All in all I think they have there merit in the art knife as well as the field knife world.

Here are some of my takedowns

Veit that I did not know was a takedown when I bought it
P6050005.jpg

P6050009.jpg


Here though rough in comparison to the beautys above are Shiva Ki's takedown's that utilize a meguki like a japanese blade to hold them all together
Spirit Blade
knives3013.jpg

knives3008.jpg


Small Spirit which I took apart to reetch
knives123.jpg
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top