Take-Downs, Make sense?

Kevin, "I would like to ask makers if in fact they do charge more for a take-down piece?"
Karl, "Not a penny.
As even my fixed assembly knives are created in exactly the same way, right up to the point of that word that is so difficult to say - epoxy.

Granted it's more work/expertise, however I don't think there's been a case where I have been able to see where a particular take-down knife from a particular maker cost more than his/her similar fixed-assembly knife. I may be wrong."

Karl, to say the least, I am really surprised by your response. Especially after reading your subsequent explanation. You admit you may be wrong. I am eagerly awaiting comment from other makers. Either your fixed are overpriced, or your take-downs of which I have one, are underpriced. Just kidding, pricing is totally your business.

Paul
 
Here is a couple more take downs.
A full tang, not many of these around,
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blad5 said:
Kevin, "I would like to ask makers if in fact they do charge more for a take-down piece?"
Karl, "Not a penny.
As even my fixed assembly knives are created in exactly the same way, right up to the point of that word that is so difficult to say - epoxy.

Granted it's more work/expertise, however I don't think there's been a case where I have been able to see where a particular take-down knife from a particular maker cost more than his/her similar fixed-assembly knife. I may be wrong."

Karl, to say the least, I am really surprised by your response. Especially after reading your subsequent explanation. You admit you may be wrong. I am eagerly awaiting comment from other makers. Either your fixed are overpriced, or your take-downs of which I have one, are underpriced. Just kidding, pricing is totally your business.

Paul
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Kevin Jones said:
I would like to ask makers if in fact they do charge more for a take-down piece?
Granted it's more work/expertise, however I don't think there's been a case where I have been able to see where a particular take-down knife from a particular maker cost more than his/her similar fixed-assembly knife. I may be wrong.
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Hi Paul. To clarify I have bolded my responses as I believe you are crediting (or discrediting ;)) some of my ramblings as Karl's response to such.

To expand on my question above asking if makers are charging for take-down construction, I believe most maker's up-charge for take-down construction is incorporated into their up-charge for their frame handle construction as both seem to be one in the same for most. Of course less the "glue-up" for take-down.
 
Steve Kelly, J.S. makes a mean take-down. He won best take-down in show at Blade West last year, after he did a take-down seminar out there.

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RogerP said:
I'd beinterested to know this from makers:

Is a take down knife as impervious to moisture intrusion as, say a hidden tang knife with a soldered guard and epoxied handle?

Roger
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Anywhere there is a seam,crack,etc there is a spot for rust to start. So if a knife is soldered and glued properly then it would eliminate most or all spots for liquids to penetrate. For a using knife a takedown would not be the best choice.

On the other hand I think takedowns can look pretty cool.
 
:eek:WOW!! That is SICK!!!!

So is your pistoli Mr Bump. I don't think you need therapy:D

Balislinger said:
Steve Kelly, J.S. makes a mean take-down. He won best take-down in show at Blade West last year, after he did a take-down seminar out there.
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Michael J. Smith said:
Anywhere there is a seam,crack,etc there is a spot for rust to start. So if a knife is soldered and glued properly then it would eliminate most or all spots for liquids to penetrate. For a using knife a takedown would not be the best choice.

On the other hand I think takedowns can look pretty cool.
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You miss the point of a take-down.
They are not created simply for ease of assembly.
They are designed for ease of DISASSEMBLY as well.
You don't just make one and then never take it apart again.
Take a shotgun out on a goose hunt. You don't just come home and put it in the gun case.
That would be foolish.
There are dozens of locations on the gun for the environment to enter and cause problems.
So, you take it apart and clean it up.
I'm not saying the take-down assembly is the BEST option, it's just AN option.
But from the maker's perspective, it offers creative opportunities that are limitless.
If, as a customer, you feel you never have the need - or will never have the need in the distant future - to take the knife apart, then just go ahead and fill 'er up with epoxy and screw it shut.
All of your problems are solved.
 
RogerP said:
Whoa! :eek:

Roger
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Bruce's layout of his mini-canon says it all about takedowns...they sure are special!! Very impressive, to say the least. :thumbup:

Other than admiration for the skill involved, I had not developed an interest in ever owning one, myself. That was until I handled Karl's at the Branson Hammer-in. Karl took the time to explain his process of construction and theory behind the madness (:D) and I left with a new outlook on takedowns. He has fine-tuned his procedures so well, he is right in saying they are an example of simplicity. Hope to own one someday.

Now, Bruce...he may need therapy! :eek: :D

- Joe
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
It's only more work and expertise on the front end.
The big secret is that by being able to work the pieces individually, a great deal of work is SAVED on down the line.
The trick is to become proficient at it, because a take-down knife POORLY executed in the beginning is a NIGHTMARE later on during construction.
You all here are familiar with my knives.
I began beating these take-downs to DEATH back in '03, and have continued ever since.
When I started doing them, with the help of Jerry Rados, there were so many questions asked about all the whys and what-fors, I almost got tired of answering them and wore out two cameras just taking step-by-step pictures for everyone to see.
When people saw the word "take-down" in my posts, most people here didn't even know what they were. Kevin, you even chased me down at the '06 Blade Show to have me show you how one of my knives came apart. Remember? I was sitting over in the Hand-made section with Richard Wright.That is just a couple of years ago and now they are almost common place.
No one will ever convince me that I did not have something - if not a great deal - to do with their popularity today.
Here last year, there was even an article in Blade mag called "knife puzzles" I think. In the article they mentioned something about one of the featured makers utilizing a "mechanical innovation" if I recall that correctly. It was the alignment pins. I had to laugh. Jerry had been using those since the late 80s and taught me that 6 years ago.
Since I started that, I have seen so many variations on what I showed, that it, to some degree, makes me feel good.
Kevin mentioned something very important up above here. About it being more work and expertise.
Consider a multi-part knife like the one shown here. Look at all the mating surfaces. There is no - there's that word again - epoxy to fill in any voids. It can't be done just "close". "Close" doesn't work. All surfaces need to FIT and FIT RIGHT so that even LIGHT can't come through. Nothing's gonna get filled.
I reference that in contrast to a method I see so many guys do that involves the undercutting of the side of the ricasso to hide the "fit" of the guard slot on the sides.
I just think that's a sloppy short cut.
Make the dang guard to fit for cryin' outloud.
There is a deffinite expertise and "pace" that needs to be set for creating even a simple take-down knife.
But once completed, it offers pure satisfaction.
I have litterally beat some of my knives to death and have yet to find even the slightest bit of undue wear or fatigue.
They allow the owner the opportunity to truly participate in the health and well-being of his knife.
I have to really knock on a big ol' piece of wood here, but in the last 6 years, I have yet to get even one knife back for any kind of repair, and on top of that, have never even received a complaint.
They are tough, they work well.
I will make them as long as I make knives.
Good thread, Kevin. [/COLOR][/COLOR]
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I certainly do remember that Karl. Seeing your take-downs here on the BF really got my curiosity up and after the demonstration at Blade I became totally amazed at your basic and simplistic methodology of the "full" take-down knife. I see NO downside what so ever in function or otherwise with your take-down knives. What's your total component count for your typical "full" take-down hunter? Maybe 10 pieces?

I will most likely only dis-assemble a collection/investment grade take-down knife one time to examine it. The insurance of being able to repair/replace a damaged component alone is enough to make it valued option for me. Especially since mine are frame handle construction so the take-down feature isn't really costing extra.

Bruce, thank you for contribution to this thread. I didn't realize that stag handled beauty was a take-down. It was my favorite of yours until the introduction of your recent dagger.
 
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Take-down or not, that OKCA Best Bowie of Bruce's is one of the most elegant knives ever!

John
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
You miss the point of a take-down.
They are not created simply for ease of assembly.
They are designed for ease of DISASSEMBLY as well.
You don't just make one and then never take it apart again.
Take a shotgun out on a goose hunt. You don't just come home and put it in the gun case.
That would be foolish.
There are dozens of locations on the gun for the environment to enter and cause problems.
So, you take it apart and clean it up.
I'm not saying the take-down assembly is the BEST option, it's just AN option.
But from the maker's perspective, it offers creative opportunities that are limitless.
If, as a customer, you feel you never have the need - or will never have the need in the distant future - to take the knife apart, then just go ahead and fill 'er up with epoxy and screw it shut.
All of your problems are solved.
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Wow, this must be the most I have had to say on a single thread! Here is what I get from many of the posts. Take-downs are "cool." Less clear is why. From a maker's perspective, I think many are influenced by the challenge they pose. From everything I have read and just looking at the pictures, they are more difficult to build. This prompted my previous post that I would expect a maker to charge more for a take-down and surprise at Karl's response.

Karl's response above again surprises me. He states that makers like the limitless creative opportunities take-downs offer. This statement does not contradict my own. However, he also writes, "They are not created simply for ease of assembly. They are designed for ease of DISASSEMBLY as well." I feel that I must be missing something. To paraphrase Roger's words, any implication or claim about ease of assembly would be counterintuitive to me.

I thought Kevin's original questions concerned identifying the specific benefits of take-down construction, if any. So far, I have seen no identified benefit that has not been preceded, specifically stated or otherwise, by some caveat. In other words, to restate Karl's words in the opposite, if you the purchaser believe that in the future you may need to take apart a knife, presumably for cleaning, then take-down construction may be beneficial.

Taking this inquiry one step further, some have mentioned that a purchaser may, in the future, want to change handle material. But again, it would appear that this predicate would have to precede any claim that take-down construction is a benefit, i.e., if a purchaser wants the ability to change handle material in the future, take-down construction is beneficial. My question would be, is this statement valid? Even an epoxied handle can be changed. Does take-down construction make this change easier? I don't know since my only experience is with changing handle material on one epoxied knife.

Paul :confused:
 
I started making take-downs because I was tired of seeing shrunken handle material create gaps. Prperly glued or not, there is no stopping shrinking ivory/stag/wood from making a knife a problem child. With a takedown, just a turn of the finial will eliminate those gaps. I don't like the idea of the knives being taken apart, but it sure makes fitting the parts easier. Takes a little longer to build, but any issues that may arise during construction and finishing can be taken care of with ease.

For the makers, a little tip from your Uncle Bail....on the final assembly, warm the parts and melt a little beeswax on them, put it together with the wax still soft and it is water tight internaly. No need to worry about rust or intrusion of blood or water from use.
 
blad5 said:
My question would be, is this statement valid? Even an epoxied handle can be changed. Does take-down construction make this change easier? I don't know since my only experience is with changing handle material on one epoxied knife.

Paul :confused:
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I'd say most definitely yes - there's no question at all that take-down construction would significantly facilitate a change in handle material. Modern epoxies are STRONG. You don't remove a hande from an epoxied knife without pretty much busting it off.

Of course, it still remains a valid question as to how often a change in handle material is likely required - or for that matter, desired. I've been at this whole knife deal for a while. I have had exactly one knife re-handled. Others may have had a greater need - it's for them to say. But this would not rate as a practical benefit for me.

Roger
 
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