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"Tenacious" model
- Thread starter Sal Glesser
- Start date
I've gotta say it....
There's just something about the Tenacious that is'nt quite right.
Everytime I look at the picture I can't help but see a Kershaw Ken Onion design.
As for the "made in china" thing....
While it's true that there are tons of chinese made items in my home,
(it's hard to avoid buying chinese goods since our government awards china "most favored trading nation" status time and time again....because the government is merely a puppet of big business interest and does not care about American workers
)
I simply will not carry a chinese made knife in my pocket.
Knives are not like common everyday items, like a computer mouse or a bathroom floor mat....knives are different.
The relationship a man has with his knife is special.
There's just something about the Tenacious that is'nt quite right.
Everytime I look at the picture I can't help but see a Kershaw Ken Onion design.
As for the "made in china" thing....
While it's true that there are tons of chinese made items in my home,
(it's hard to avoid buying chinese goods since our government awards china "most favored trading nation" status time and time again....because the government is merely a puppet of big business interest and does not care about American workers
)I simply will not carry a chinese made knife in my pocket.
Knives are not like common everyday items, like a computer mouse or a bathroom floor mat....knives are different.
The relationship a man has with his knife is special.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,746
Thanx much for all of the input. It's really appreciated. We do not pretend to "know all" so asking is a good way to learn.
Hi Dan,
When we began byrd, there was no plan for a "budget" Spyderco. The decision was prompted later.
When we first began making knives in Japan, we used the best steel availabe that we'd tested. Then we tested more and more, learned mor and more, and VG-10, ATS-55, CPM and ZDP products were the result of that testing.
8Cr13MoV is the best we'd tested when we began. Better, I might add than 95% of the Chinese imports. Now we're testing and pushing. Assuming the Tenacious is successful, they will improve. that's what we do.
sal
Hi Dan,
When we began byrd, there was no plan for a "budget" Spyderco. The decision was prompted later.
When we first began making knives in Japan, we used the best steel availabe that we'd tested. Then we tested more and more, learned mor and more, and VG-10, ATS-55, CPM and ZDP products were the result of that testing.
8Cr13MoV is the best we'd tested when we began. Better, I might add than 95% of the Chinese imports. Now we're testing and pushing. Assuming the Tenacious is successful, they will improve. that's what we do.
sal
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,746
A week or two.
sal
sal
- Joined
- May 2, 2006
- Messages
- 1,273
Sal, As you said, there are many reasons why you resisted doing this. One of the biggest reasons is that "china" and "integrity" are not often used in the same sentence. That may offend some people and I'm not going to lay out any examples of current or past issues of the many different (not just knife) areas where china lacks credibility and integrity. There is no doubt that quality products "can" be made in china so that isn't really a big issue. When you sit down and try to figure out how to reach a larger population with your product(s), then making knives in china and selling in "chain" stores, appears logical. Integrity and logic don't always add up. I'm not making a case for or against "real" Spyderco knives with a china label. My question is: When will they be labeled China-Earth? Not so funny?
I don't quite follow your reasoning, Dan. If the choice of steel makes it a "third tier- better than Byrd etc.", than wouldn't it have to be a different steel than what the Byrds are currently made of, 8Cr13MoV? The steel would have to be something perceived as better (or at the very least different) than 8Cr13MoV in order for your statement to be logical. Am I misunderstanding something? Please feel free to correct me if I am. I'm not sure I understand your hypothesis, but I also have two ex-wives, so I am certainly capable of misunderstanding points of view
.I understand Sal's decision, and will continue to buy Spyderco/Byrd products in the future. I own several of each brand, from the CaraCara to the Millie in BG-42. The Byrd knives represent outstanding value, and there isn't anything to my knowledge that can match it within the price point of the line. The steel (8Cr13MoV) has decent edge retention, sharpens up like a dream, and I believe is similar to AUS-8A in properties IIRC.
Can't wait for Jay to get it in his store.
BTW, anybody remember when "made in Japan" was considered a sign of poor quality? Who knows what the future will bring. Times change, so do reality and perceptions.
Rik
When I look at it, it reminds me of the Military, only scaled down and with no choil.
The China thing doesn't bother me. It just means I'll be able to purchase it. I'd love to own a Stretch 2, looks like an exceptional EDC, but I just can't afford it. I can afford Byrds, and I'll be able to buy myself one of these. I EDC'd a Cara Cara nearly everyday for months and only have good things to say about the knife. I wish it had a round hole and said Spyderco, because it's such a good design IMO. It will be interesting comparing the fit and finish of this model to the Byrds and Golden made Spydercos.
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 152
Made in China does not have to mean lower quality. Look at Fenix flashlights they are fantastic.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2005
- Messages
- 50
As long as the quality is up to the standards of the Spyderco brand the point is moot. For what it is worth I have been quite satisfied with the performance of my Cara Cara and my Byrdwrench. The overall fit and finish on my Cara Cara is not as good as my Spyderco knives but it is still good, and represents a hell of a value for the money.
As long as Spyderco makes sure that the knife is up to the standards expected of the brand name then I see no reason to be upset about the country of origin.
I personally like liner locks for every day carry because I don't have the manual dexterity to safely close a lockback one-handed as quickly as a liner lock.
I have not been disappointed with Spyderco yet and until I have a chance to buy one of this new model and try it out personally, I see no reason to get prematurely anxious about it.
As long as Spyderco makes sure that the knife is up to the standards expected of the brand name then I see no reason to be upset about the country of origin.
I personally like liner locks for every day carry because I don't have the manual dexterity to safely close a lockback one-handed as quickly as a liner lock.
I have not been disappointed with Spyderco yet and until I have a chance to buy one of this new model and try it out personally, I see no reason to get prematurely anxious about it.
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2006
- Messages
- 633
I have been impressed with the quality of the Byrd line. Let us know when this knife is released. The DoDo (by Eric) is well loved and a masterpiece, I wish I could get one. Count me in for this next "Eric/Sal" design.
- Joined
- May 12, 2001
- Messages
- 2,957
Sal,
No need to apologize if you can deliver a quality product at a lower cost. All competitive manufacturing businesses must achieve economies in their production processes, regardless of where the products are made. So long as quality is maintained, the integrity of the company is intact, IMO.
I have purchased and will continue purchase Spyderco products.
Nice looking knife too.
No need to apologize if you can deliver a quality product at a lower cost. All competitive manufacturing businesses must achieve economies in their production processes, regardless of where the products are made. So long as quality is maintained, the integrity of the company is intact, IMO.
I have purchased and will continue purchase Spyderco products.
Nice looking knife too.
I am ever impressed with Sal's class. I think most of us understand the reality of the market. We want everything but we don't want to pay for it.
I thought I wouldn't buy one until I saw the pic. As many here know, I have been asking for a knife that is actually similar to this for a while. When I read Sal's post, I thought oh, no! I thought it was the begining of the end of the Spyderco name as we knew it. When I saw the knife, I thought wow! This is almost exactly what I have been asking Spyderco to make for so long. When I saw the price, I decided I would buy one because why not?
I hope you can still keep some models made in Golden and Seki-City. I have found both to be equal in quality and only hope the China knives can uphold the level of quality we have grown to expect from Spyderco.
I thought I wouldn't buy one until I saw the pic. As many here know, I have been asking for a knife that is actually similar to this for a while. When I read Sal's post, I thought oh, no! I thought it was the begining of the end of the Spyderco name as we knew it. When I saw the knife, I thought wow! This is almost exactly what I have been asking Spyderco to make for so long. When I saw the price, I decided I would buy one because why not?
I hope you can still keep some models made in Golden and Seki-City. I have found both to be equal in quality and only hope the China knives can uphold the level of quality we have grown to expect from Spyderco.
i have a simple question. why not just put a comet hole opener on it and call the thing a byrd? why did it have to be a spyderco?
i personally would love to see something like the catbyrd in G-10
See post 1, reason 4, and reply 44.
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2003
- Messages
- 3,330
I can't say that I am shocked by this pronouncement of a Chinese Spyderco. I too think of Byrd as a pilot project that made the latest announcement a lot easier to swallow for both the company and its most ardent fans. It didn't have to start that way to become that way.
The only good that can come of such a development is that if the margins provided by civilian fronted People's Liberation Army owned or controlled knife factories enable the domestic branches of Buck, Benchmade, and now, Spyderco to continue making exciting, domestically produced knives for the serious knife buyer.
Every other reason smacks of rationalizations for having to satisfy the King of Chinese Bottomfeeders--Wal-Mart and their bottom feeding patrons.
The question I have always had in mind about such off-shoring rationalizations but have never had answered in any satisfying way by anyone before is this one:
How does Victorinox hold out from Chinese off-shoring in its knife line?
Don't worry about it anyone, it's a rhetorical question and the root of the answer is that Victorinox is probably the smartest run cutlery (and "lifestyle") company in the world.
But they have shown it can be done in knives. And they do it whilst also being ubiquitous and affordable in every chain retailer with a sporting goods department.
I personally will never put a Chinese made knife into anyone's pocket, let alone my own. Case and Victorinox make the bulk of my "gifting" knives and they remain highly affordable with easily spotted qualitative differences from Chinese slipjoint knock offs of the month that flood the domestic market several feet deep. If I need a gift that locks, the Buck 110 fills that role.
The Chicoms are the enemy. They are an old one and a current one. They killed American servicemen in Korea. They killed them in Vietnam. They damn near killed a few in the first weeks of George W. Bush's term as president. They still use North Korea as a cat's paw against us. It's like the Cold War, but with international trade between the protagonists where the Chinese essentially beg, borrow, and steal Western know-how in manufacturing, quality assurance, and increasingly in design, and return a flood of cheap goods that further guts the industrial base of the West.
Great bargain there to have something in your pocket that a few short years before would have been Taylor branded garbage.
Fortunately, in knives, if not in electronics, I can still vote with my wallet. I will still buy the "higher-end" Bucks, Spydercos and Benchmades that strike my fancy as long as they are made here or in allied countries such as Japan or Taiwan.
If/When I see an apologia for the 20XX model year Endura being made in China I would consider such a move to be the tipping point. It'd be tantamount to the Buck family announcing a Chinese 110 or buying a Mandarin flavored SAK or puukko. Blasphemous. Unsupportable. Tragic. (Should such ever come to pass).
At that point it will be the time to become a full fledged crank and niche company knife supporter, leaving the mass market to the know nothing buyer.
What's worse than the know nothing schlub who stumbles blindly upon this Chinese concubine cutlery in American garb and takes it home?
The ones who do know better, take it home just the same, justify it to themselves, and defend it on the internet.
At least the first guy has the excuse of ignorance on his side. The second guy is just a cheap bastard trying his damnedest to obscure that trait.
"The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."
I guess Oscar Wilde presaged the arrival of the witting Chinese knife buyer from the West.
Celebrate--Your day has come!
The only good that can come of such a development is that if the margins provided by civilian fronted People's Liberation Army owned or controlled knife factories enable the domestic branches of Buck, Benchmade, and now, Spyderco to continue making exciting, domestically produced knives for the serious knife buyer.
Every other reason smacks of rationalizations for having to satisfy the King of Chinese Bottomfeeders--Wal-Mart and their bottom feeding patrons.
The question I have always had in mind about such off-shoring rationalizations but have never had answered in any satisfying way by anyone before is this one:
How does Victorinox hold out from Chinese off-shoring in its knife line?
Don't worry about it anyone, it's a rhetorical question and the root of the answer is that Victorinox is probably the smartest run cutlery (and "lifestyle") company in the world.
But they have shown it can be done in knives. And they do it whilst also being ubiquitous and affordable in every chain retailer with a sporting goods department.
I personally will never put a Chinese made knife into anyone's pocket, let alone my own. Case and Victorinox make the bulk of my "gifting" knives and they remain highly affordable with easily spotted qualitative differences from Chinese slipjoint knock offs of the month that flood the domestic market several feet deep. If I need a gift that locks, the Buck 110 fills that role.
The Chicoms are the enemy. They are an old one and a current one. They killed American servicemen in Korea. They killed them in Vietnam. They damn near killed a few in the first weeks of George W. Bush's term as president. They still use North Korea as a cat's paw against us. It's like the Cold War, but with international trade between the protagonists where the Chinese essentially beg, borrow, and steal Western know-how in manufacturing, quality assurance, and increasingly in design, and return a flood of cheap goods that further guts the industrial base of the West.
Great bargain there to have something in your pocket that a few short years before would have been Taylor branded garbage.
Fortunately, in knives, if not in electronics, I can still vote with my wallet. I will still buy the "higher-end" Bucks, Spydercos and Benchmades that strike my fancy as long as they are made here or in allied countries such as Japan or Taiwan.
If/When I see an apologia for the 20XX model year Endura being made in China I would consider such a move to be the tipping point. It'd be tantamount to the Buck family announcing a Chinese 110 or buying a Mandarin flavored SAK or puukko. Blasphemous. Unsupportable. Tragic. (Should such ever come to pass).
At that point it will be the time to become a full fledged crank and niche company knife supporter, leaving the mass market to the know nothing buyer.
What's worse than the know nothing schlub who stumbles blindly upon this Chinese concubine cutlery in American garb and takes it home?
The ones who do know better, take it home just the same, justify it to themselves, and defend it on the internet.
At least the first guy has the excuse of ignorance on his side. The second guy is just a cheap bastard trying his damnedest to obscure that trait.
"The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."
I guess Oscar Wilde presaged the arrival of the witting Chinese knife buyer from the West.
Celebrate--Your day has come!
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,746
Hi Boats,
I appreciate and admire your passion. I believe passion is a necessary ingredient for excellence in any arena. It was our passion that promoted the "announcement".
Unfortuately competition and the market changed the plan.
Hopefully.
Not everyone that is seeking a less expensive product is buying at Wal-Mart, nor are those same people "bottom feeders". Many appreciate the fact that we will extend the effort to create a quality low cost offering. And I will admit, it is more effort.
That is not a rhetorical question, it is a manufacturing question, which I can provide you with an answer, if you are interested?
I uderstand and respect your position. Maybe you will add a Spyderco Native to that list. You will find them right next to the Buck 110 at Wal-Mart.
I can understand your feeling against the Chinese government (Chinese people are like any other people; they love, laugh, work, grieve and hope like the rest of us).
"Some of Them" do steal our ideas and help to "undermine" our economy. Perhaps your position will help convince the "market" to buy more American?
A few short years have made an unusually big quality difference in some Chinese factories. We do design our own product and maintain control of quality.
I applaud your stance. Although, In my opinion, much of Taiwan product is now being made in China.
I agree. That would be tragic.
The market drives and supports the manufacturers.
Perhaps you will help with their education?
Maybe? Or maybe it's the best they can afford?
sal
I appreciate and admire your passion. I believe passion is a necessary ingredient for excellence in any arena. It was our passion that promoted the "announcement".
Unfortuately competition and the market changed the plan.
Hopefully.
Not everyone that is seeking a less expensive product is buying at Wal-Mart, nor are those same people "bottom feeders". Many appreciate the fact that we will extend the effort to create a quality low cost offering. And I will admit, it is more effort.
That is not a rhetorical question, it is a manufacturing question, which I can provide you with an answer, if you are interested?
I uderstand and respect your position. Maybe you will add a Spyderco Native to that list. You will find them right next to the Buck 110 at Wal-Mart.
I can understand your feeling against the Chinese government (Chinese people are like any other people; they love, laugh, work, grieve and hope like the rest of us).
"Some of Them" do steal our ideas and help to "undermine" our economy. Perhaps your position will help convince the "market" to buy more American?
A few short years have made an unusually big quality difference in some Chinese factories. We do design our own product and maintain control of quality.
I applaud your stance. Although, In my opinion, much of Taiwan product is now being made in China.
I agree. That would be tragic.
The market drives and supports the manufacturers.
Perhaps you will help with their education?
Maybe? Or maybe it's the best they can afford?
sal
