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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread
- Thread starter Sam Wilson
- Start date
10° per side can easily take chopping on soft wood. According to those doing testing using chisels, below 40° the edge's very extremity suffers much more micro-chips than at 40°, but this assumes consistent sharpening angle all the way to the edge extremity: Highly theoretical with free-hand sharpening like I do... And even if they do micro-chip at 10° per side, I still prefer micro-chipping and having a thin edge that I can still saw with, rather than 20° per side, which is to me completely unsatisfactory, no matter what anyone says... Even 30° inclusive I consider barely safe to use...
The reason Randall did not fix the Model 18 is because I knew they couldn't: The guard was welded askew, and they would have to replace the whole knife, and that is no good to me (neither would be re-welding the guard/handle: Good grief!): The Model 18 is so loosely made that the 18 model # is basically utterly meaningless -from my point of view- as to the actual shape of knife you are going to get (in particular blade width and point geometry): If they can vary the same model from 11 to 19 teeth (and you can see how vastly different are the two Randalls I show, despite choosing the blades to be as close as possible...), then I have no idea what the replacement knife I am going to get will look like: I choose that specific blade shape out of around 8-10 Model 18s sold by the same dealer on Ebay. His prices are a little higher, but you get a variety of the same model to choose from, with their varied blade shapes, and that is worth it to me... Losing the shape of the guard is not a big deal in comparison. In any case, the 0-1 steel stains worse than most steels I have seen, and I would have avoided that steel if the shape of the blade had not been so close to what I want. None of the stainless 18s he had I liked... I am quite happy it is coated now, and for the guard... Well it looks kind of meaner that way...
Gaston
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I'll try and post some pics soon, but although I also think it looks neat, it will be a bit disapointing from a technical point of view...: The rope is heavily knotted on one side (the rope is high quality, tightly woven stuff), and those knots are used as support for blobs of superglue to stiffen the whole thing at the top... The first knot was tied while immersed in superglue, to keep the rope tension very high around the brass tube. The two "clips" are superglued "craddles", the top one being black plastic triangles glued on top of the black leather finish, the bottom one being a thick leather piece cut into a semi-circle craddle shape: The black sheath finish was narrowly scrapped off for that one, for better glue adhesion, so the superglue secures it directly to the leather at the bottom. More gel superglue secures that tip craddle directly to the knurling in the brass tube: All the gel superglue blobs were painted flat black. The biggest force applied to the attachments is when unscrewing the rod (if tightly screwed down), but all the gel glue keeps all of this very rigid.
On top of the brass sharpener is gel-glued a 14 mm compass (matching the outer diameter exactly): Its North is unaffected even with the knife next to it: It means it can be consulted by looking down, but it prevents screwing the rod in the alternative "exposed" position... I was more than happy with the sturdyness of the whole thing, but it helps to not screw the rod shut super tight, or in the long run the torque effort to untwist could eventually weaken the top craddle's glue. Even if the rope prevents any separation, it does not mechanically prevent twisting: Only the glue, supported by the craddle's shape, does that.
The idea of the using the sheath thickness was to facilitate inside the pants carry. It did do that, but even the bulky Randall stone pouch can ride inside the pants very well, given the 18 sheath is so much shorter, and this particular sheath shape/thickness/weight/hardness combination is, at 8.75" in the blade, just a bit too long, by about an inch, to be confortable for me while cycling... Walking or sitting with it is fine. Interestingly enough, the gigantic 9.5" Neeley rides much better, even when cycling, and is much more confortable: The thicker sheath rides better inside the pants, and the fully rounded tip is way more confortable than the squared-off Reeves sheath. Too bad the integrated sharpener is a simple stone, and not a diamond hone... I would not like to carry these attention-grabbers openly...
Gaston
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,135
Gaston,
No need for a photo on the sharpener attachment. I understand the set up from your description. Thanks.
Sometime you will have to post a few photos of inside the pants carry - unless you're just talking about tucking the blade portion of the sheath in your pants and your belt prevents the knife from sliding through.
No need for a photo on the sharpener attachment. I understand the set up from your description. Thanks.
Sometime you will have to post a few photos of inside the pants carry - unless you're just talking about tucking the blade portion of the sheath in your pants and your belt prevents the knife from sliding through.
Thanks for your comments. I'm always surprised by the incredibly wide variation in what people consider to be a useful edge - especially with the very wide variations in hardness and wear resistance just in the samples you have.
Personally, the allure of a Randal would be the quality. It doesn't sound like the quality is there if the grinding, fit and finish is as bad as your example. With Randall's soft heat treatment, I really don't know what else there is to a nice knife besides fit and finish.
I will say that the 1970s Gerber Mark II knives had two different serration profiles/numbers per inch. Gerber had two different serration cutters, and what the customer received depending on which machine was used - rather than a permanent spec change.
Your huge Randall modification may inspire me to get a Boker Apparo and grind down the guard to something just smaller than the holes - and maybe grind off the serrations. That seems like an okay project for a $112 knife. So far I only have a Schrade HH, which is surprisingly decent.
Grinding off the guard below the lashing holes on the Apparo might be a good idea, but be warned the effect on blade heft is very, very noticeable: My Model 18 seems even more blade-light than it was, and seems now so devoid of blade heft and overall bulk that it feels like something intended for boot carry: I'm not kidding... The Randall handle diameter, with the buttcap so much more larger than even the Neeley SA9's handle, makes for a feeling of a big handle with very little sticking out in front... The Apparo might avoid that, because of its full 1/4" stock blade, compared to 3/16" on the Randall, but removing both lashing holes would look even odder than on the Randall, in my opinion, because of the great width of the guard there...
For the Apparo, I would consider maybe just deleting the top of the guard entirely, and leaving the bottom guard alone?: My initial impression, from looking at this, is that just grinding off the top guard entirely would look a lot better than removing both lashing holes... With no top guard, removing just the lug at the bottom, leaving the hole, is feasible, but removing the hole at the bottom will make the guard look odd, no matter what, because of its width (my guard was ground down in width as well, but the refinishing work was less tricky on brass than here on steel I would think)...
I have read just recently that the "swirls" in the finish are a new thing for Randall... I'm guessing they think it looks more "handmade" or something... You certainly can't see them in the old Randalls, but it is a difficult thing to pick up on photos. There was a recent change in their finishing methods I heard.
Personnally I would not persist with Randall if it wasn't for their 0.5 mm thick edges on big knives, which few seems to be doing these days (Blackjack blades are usually no more than 7", although one has a guardless 8" version I think)... As to the variations in shape, the most crucial issue for me is they tend to grind their points, looking down from above, as two deep curves meeting, which means the point is incredibly dull (to the extent the #18 pattern blade is unuseable, out of the box, as a weapon, and I really do mean by that less so than an unsharpened screwdriver...). The only way to mitigate that is too choose, among their varied 18 shapes, a blade profile with less "belly" at the tip, which compensates in profile what sharpness is missing in top view... (I actually ground off some tip "belly" off my 14, and you can sort of see the effect of that compared to the 18, although the 18 is now so sharp at the tip that the belly is actually an advantage now)
On the good side, the quality of the fit and finish of their micarta handles is superb, as is the guard finish on my 14. There is some really good basic quality in the sheath/handle.
For the steel, the fact that the blades are forged seems to help the performance. The stainless is hardened to an appropriate 56-57, while the carbon is 55-56, though there are quotes for 54... Most users and controlled tests (Ciff Stamp among others, but on old blades) report significantly better edge-holding from stainless, but Randall themselves claim the carbon is 10% better? Stainless can be $100 more on the Model 18, so it is not a cheap option...
Considering inside the pants carry, I will post photos of that eventually, so you can see what I mean. I've made some interesting findings on that front recently: The Randall sheath with stone pouch carries better stuck diagonally at the small of the back(!). The stone pouch, and backface curvature, actually combine to help stabilize the sheath in a diagonal... This is how I think Rambo is shown carrying the Lile in public at the start of the first one... But the extra length must have made it quite a bit clumsier, though the huge Randall buttcap diameter is not helpful either...
The other interesting finding is that the Neeley SA9 is the most confortable and concealable inside the pants big knife I have ever tried(!): The smooth overall thickness of the sheath, the modest handle diameter, the flat stitched belt loop, the rounded sheath tip, plus the well-rounded buttcap, make it the most carryable right-front "kidney hollow" large fixed blade knife I have tried so far (I had noticed before that the extra thickness of a sheath's leather very much helps inside the pants carry, by providing "stability" -as long as there is no pouch-, the first one that gave me a clue of this being the hugely thick pouchless leather sheath of the Fallkniven "Odin", which contrasted in confort with the nice but thinner Chris Reeves leather that always wanted to move around...: Thinner is not always better...). The SA9's extra length surprisingly seems to also helps a little (usually length does not), by preventing a bump appearing at the side, because the thicker leather sheath, holding a knife that is long but seemingly not very heavy, allows the pommel to ride higher, and so hides the bump under the pectoral... It can actually hide confortably between two wool shirts!
Gaston
For the Apparo, I would consider maybe just deleting the top of the guard entirely, and leaving the bottom guard alone?: My initial impression, from looking at this, is that just grinding off the top guard entirely would look a lot better than removing both lashing holes... With no top guard, removing just the lug at the bottom, leaving the hole, is feasible, but removing the hole at the bottom will make the guard look odd, no matter what, because of its width (my guard was ground down in width as well, but the refinishing work was less tricky on brass than here on steel I would think)...
I have read just recently that the "swirls" in the finish are a new thing for Randall... I'm guessing they think it looks more "handmade" or something... You certainly can't see them in the old Randalls, but it is a difficult thing to pick up on photos. There was a recent change in their finishing methods I heard.
Personnally I would not persist with Randall if it wasn't for their 0.5 mm thick edges on big knives, which few seems to be doing these days (Blackjack blades are usually no more than 7", although one has a guardless 8" version I think)... As to the variations in shape, the most crucial issue for me is they tend to grind their points, looking down from above, as two deep curves meeting, which means the point is incredibly dull (to the extent the #18 pattern blade is unuseable, out of the box, as a weapon, and I really do mean by that less so than an unsharpened screwdriver...). The only way to mitigate that is too choose, among their varied 18 shapes, a blade profile with less "belly" at the tip, which compensates in profile what sharpness is missing in top view... (I actually ground off some tip "belly" off my 14, and you can sort of see the effect of that compared to the 18, although the 18 is now so sharp at the tip that the belly is actually an advantage now)
On the good side, the quality of the fit and finish of their micarta handles is superb, as is the guard finish on my 14. There is some really good basic quality in the sheath/handle.
For the steel, the fact that the blades are forged seems to help the performance. The stainless is hardened to an appropriate 56-57, while the carbon is 55-56, though there are quotes for 54... Most users and controlled tests (Ciff Stamp among others, but on old blades) report significantly better edge-holding from stainless, but Randall themselves claim the carbon is 10% better? Stainless can be $100 more on the Model 18, so it is not a cheap option...
Considering inside the pants carry, I will post photos of that eventually, so you can see what I mean. I've made some interesting findings on that front recently: The Randall sheath with stone pouch carries better stuck diagonally at the small of the back(!). The stone pouch, and backface curvature, actually combine to help stabilize the sheath in a diagonal... This is how I think Rambo is shown carrying the Lile in public at the start of the first one... But the extra length must have made it quite a bit clumsier, though the huge Randall buttcap diameter is not helpful either...
The other interesting finding is that the Neeley SA9 is the most confortable and concealable inside the pants big knife I have ever tried(!): The smooth overall thickness of the sheath, the modest handle diameter, the flat stitched belt loop, the rounded sheath tip, plus the well-rounded buttcap, make it the most carryable right-front "kidney hollow" large fixed blade knife I have tried so far (I had noticed before that the extra thickness of a sheath's leather very much helps inside the pants carry, by providing "stability" -as long as there is no pouch-, the first one that gave me a clue of this being the hugely thick pouchless leather sheath of the Fallkniven "Odin", which contrasted in confort with the nice but thinner Chris Reeves leather that always wanted to move around...: Thinner is not always better...). The SA9's extra length surprisingly seems to also helps a little (usually length does not), by preventing a bump appearing at the side, because the thicker leather sheath, holding a knife that is long but seemingly not very heavy, allows the pommel to ride higher, and so hides the bump under the pectoral... It can actually hide confortably between two wool shirts!
Gaston
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If you can forgive me whacking up your photo, here's the options with the Boker:
The one on the right is what it would look like with the guard ground outside the holes.
The middle is ground just inside both holes.
The left is ground outside the top hole and inside the bottom hole. This may be the best looking version.
Overall, the guard is just too big for my tastes - especially on the bottom.
The one on the right is what it would look like with the guard ground outside the holes.
The middle is ground just inside both holes.
The left is ground outside the top hole and inside the bottom hole. This may be the best looking version.
Overall, the guard is just too big for my tastes - especially on the bottom.
I've looked at my knife, blocking out the guard from varied viewpoints, and you are right: Removing both lugs, leaving only the top hole and grounding off the bottom hole actually equalizes the top and bottom of the guard, and the width and proportions of the guard still look fine: It actualy looks like a factory-intended design, except for the oddity of there being just one hole... 
The hard part left would be rounding all the edges evenly, on steel, and equalizing the finish all over the guard...
Gaston
The hard part left would be rounding all the edges evenly, on steel, and equalizing the finish all over the guard...
Gaston
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 76
Where did you find the green rope for the handle?
I've looked at my knife, blocking out the guard from varied viewpoints, and you are right: Removing both lugs, leaving only the top hole and grounding off the bottom hole actually equalizes the top and bottom of the guard, and the width and proportions of the guard still look fine: It actualy looks like a factory-intended design, except for the oddity of there being just one hole...
The hard part left would be rounding all the edges evenly, on steel, and equalizing the finish all over the guard...
Gaston
After cutting, going all the way around with a belt sander would be relatively easy and very even.
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
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- 5,548
Lol I sent it to him. Its #36 bank line you can pick up at many outdoor stores in the fishing dept. Even walmart sometimes. Also known as trout line.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 76
Cool, thanks Dave, I only have 2mm black but I like the green allot
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
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- 5,548
No problem when I bought mine it came in a spool 8 inches high and 6 inches thick. I'm set for, well forever lol. At least the spool only costs about 8 bucks.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 76
Wow, that's cheap, good deal
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 76
I can't find that color green anywhere, I checked amazon, eBay
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 5,548
Academy sports and outdoors is where I bought mine, they also had it at walmart in the fishing section.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 76
Cool, ill be at Wal-Mart first thing in the morning
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 76
Hey Dave, joe here. .. Well I just got back home from 3 different Wal-Mart's and looks like the Wal-Mart's around me here suck because I couldn't find that cool green trap line for mt new knife handle. ... i guess I might have to wait for them to start putting out all their seasonal gear for fishing then maybe I'll find it.
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2007
- Messages
- 463
A couple of new additions to the herd...
Martin SURV-9
And an ESEE Laser Strike
It's tough to tell that the ESEE is a hollow handle, but it is. Inside a hollow there is a fire steel and two tinder bundles.
Full testing will commence soon.
Martin SURV-9
And an ESEE Laser Strike
It's tough to tell that the ESEE is a hollow handle, but it is. Inside a hollow there is a fire steel and two tinder bundles.
Full testing will commence soon.
And an ESEE Laser Strike
It's tough to tell that the ESEE is a hollow handle, but it is. Inside a hollow there is a fire steel and two tinder bundles.
Full testing will commence soon.
Does the ESEE come with some sort of screw driver built into the sheath for access to the hollow?