THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

I like the simplicity of that Storm Crow compass, but in general, I just don't like liquid-filled button compasses. A few weeks ago, I exchanged emails with Vaughn Neeley about compasses. He, too, is frustrated with the current button compasses that are available and has occasionally made his own dry compasses for his knives, which he says is a real headache. Here is an updated photo of my mini compass collection. Recently, I was able to add the Waltham compass after years of searching.


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1) Karl Mfg., .25" brass, dry, non-luminous, USA (1990s)
2) Waltham, .50" brass, dry, non-luminous, USA, used by Randall (early 60s - early 70s) and by Lile in the original 13 First Blood knives
3) Marbles, .50" brass, dry ,non-luminous, USA, used by Timberline (late 80s)
4) Pyser-SGI, .60" brass, dry, luminous, England (? - present)
5) Marbles, .75" brass, dry, luminous, USA, used by Timberline (early 90s)
6) Tokyo Compass, .55" plastic, liquid, luminous, Japan, used by Randall (late 90s - present)
7) Marbles, .50" brass, dry, non-luminous, USA, used by Randall (mid 80s - late 90s)
8) Marbles, .50" brass, dry, luminous, USA, used by Randall, Lile, and Timberline (70s - mid 80s)
9) Marbles, 1" brass, dry, luminous, USA (mid 90s)
 
Wow, so number 2 is the one in the original First Blood... That's quite a find! And they are all dry, except the current Randall! Why exactly do they make them "wet", if that causes problems?

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
Wow, so number 2 is the one in the original First Blood...
Click to expand...

Yep, Lile used a Waltham in the original 13 knives, but then switched to the Marbles compass with the meridian line on the lens (#8 in my photo) for the limited edition 100 knives that followed. He continued to use the Marbles compass in the Sly II and Rambo II knives until it was no longer available in the mid to late 80s. Then he switched to an imported liquid-filled compass.

Here is #5 of 13. Knives #1 thru #6 were used in the movie. This one sold for $90,000 a couple of years ago. Note the Waltham compass in the bottom photo.

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Gaston444 said:
And they are all dry, except the current Randall! Why exactly do they make them "wet", if that causes problems?
Click to expand...

Liquid-filled compasses settle quicker and don't move around as much, but they are susceptible to forming a bubble from changes in climate and atmospheric pressure, especially if the compass isn't sealed or filled properly. The small, button size makes it difficult to pressurize and stabilize the capsule. If the bubble gets big enough, it will interfere with the dial movement. This is why almost every Randall "new style" compass has a bubble. High quality, dry compasses are more expensive to produce due to the agate jewel bearing (needle) that the dial rotates on and the typical brass housing. The liquid-filled compass doesn't need an expensive jewel bearing, because the liquid softens the rotation of the dial. The hard, agate jewel bearing is needed in dry compasses, so it doesn't wear out from years of use.

So, to answer your question, liquid-filled button compasses are less expensive to make.
 
Thanks for all the details TAH!

Interesting to see how the D-2 steel has pitted over the years: Obviously the guy owning it was largely unaware of the value of what he had (unless all the damage is from the filming)... I wonder if storage in the leather is solely the cause of the blade pitting near the ricasso: That would be in closer contact with the leather...: I have bought Al Mars that were almost as old, and they look pristine, but they did have Aus-6 or Aus-8 steel, and were mostly stored in nylon sheaths: Leather does appear to be a bit harder on blades, scratch-wise... I wonder if leather storage really is that hard on D-2...

Is it known which scenes did #5 appear in? The rusted and pitted upper guard, and general quite rough condition of the blade, makes me think it might have been the one in the scene where he wraps burning cloths around the blade, and sticks it into the mine's support post while it burns... The heat and carbonization of the upper guard might have pitted it, and made it more prone to rusting, and cleaning the soot would explain the general rough condition of the finish, particularly the bead blasting, which looks scrubbed and uneven, like it was really hard to clean... The mirror edges are really dull too.

Supposedly there is movie blood on it within the sawteeths, but it doesn't seem to make much sense in the context of the movie: It might have been leftover soot instead (blood also turns black and looks like soot)...

The rough condition would explain why the crew member it was given to did not think much of its value...

Gaston
 
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I doubt the crew member is completely responsible for the knife's condition. I assume the knife and sheath were intentionally distressed to look well used. D2 is considered semi-stainless, because I believe it has the highest chromium content of all carbon steels. But I agree, the crew member probably stored it in the sheath, which could have added to the knife's present condition. Not sure which scenes #5 was used in. Hopefully, Stallone will come along soon and fill us in. :D

Regardless, it's a really cool knife and the photography offers exceptional detail.
 
Here's a video on it...


[video=youtube;xQgm-3dWttg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQgm-3dWttg [/video]
 
Yes, I had seen it. Considering the uses the knife was put through in the movie, it remained shiny and flawless quite late into the story.

The more I think about it, the more I think #5 was the knife used in the mine scene were it is wrapped in cloths dipped in petrol, and is left burning for a while stuck into a post: It is probably the coolest use of the knife, and it is one of its last major appearances: This is the only film use of the knife that would explain the condition it is in now, if owner neglect did not play a role... The different pitting/rusting of the upper guard quillion is particularly telling...

On another note, I just got my Clinton dealer special right now, and besides a few minor swirls in the finish, similar-looking on all four faces, it is finally what I would call an out of the box flawless Randall: Finally! Way, way, way better than the Model 14 and 18 that I got...: I figured that, this being a dagger, Randall could not deliver it with a blunt rounded point: My 18 and 14 were litterally delivered, new, with points as safe as those of any training knife, and both had to have their points heavily re-ground to be useable at all...: This is what deterred me from a Model 12, since I knew a dagger could not afford to be ground that way...: It turned out as I expected...

Considering other flaws, if you remember my comments about this, not only was the guard badly askew laterally on my 18, but I later found the 18s blade was very slightly curved to the left as well, and set towards one side of the handle... And not straight laterally to the handle...: It'll be a user...

The center blade grind on the Clinton is straight, nicely centered on both sides, and almost perfectly symmetrical [EDIT: It is straight but off to one side by 0.5 mm on the side opposite the logo], with no really visible wandering of any kind from a straight line: Impressive... Still not as crisp in the overall surface finish as a Seki City blade, but perfectly acceptable, even for a very expensive knife: Thin 0.54 mm edges (also lined up correctly centered to the spine, on top of wide and deep hollow grinds), means this is basically two survival knives, each with efficient geometry, brought together back to back...

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This is where a huge surprise come in: Unlike both my Model 14 and my Model 18, which are both barely 3/16" thick at the blade, this time the dagger's blade thickness is a full true 1/4" all the way to the point taper, and this, combined with the immense guard, the huge blade width, and the lighter stick tang, means the knife balances quite blade-heavy(!!), and is in fact definitely blade heavier than my Model 18 or 14! Amazing... The guard is a Model 18 guard in span, but with a 14 style width (which makes it look even longer), and the blade is sharp-pointed but also a really wide 40 mm+, giving an unusual leaf-shape impression in the hand... It also weighs about the same as the Model 14/18, but in a chopping comparison I think it will match or exceed the Model 14 in chopping power, and I am sure it will exceed the chopping power of my slightly lighter Model 18...

So this is a sharp-pointed dagger that could truly be used as a survival knife, with no compromises in any area (except for a lack of edge belly), including chopping versus most or any single-edge knives of the same length... Outside of a Smatchet, that is pretty unique for a reasonably sized double edged knife...

An interesting side note is that the sheath's black leather surface is a lot harder, and so much more wear-resistant (yet still flexible enough) from the effect of seemingly far more aggressive black dyeing than the regular brown sheaths: The advantage is blatantly obvious in the better behaviour of the sheath strap (still with a weak snap button, but I easily strenghtened it by pinching with pliers), with much less wrinkling and loosening of the strap from repeated bending... And the dye color is right through the leather (no potential contrast from scratches), full depth(!), while the brown sheaths have the brown only as a superficial tint, which scuffs easily just from being softer: I'd say it's absolutely no contest: Go for a black sheath... Also no contest is choosing stainless 440B (which has slightly better edge-holding), as 0-1 I've seen takes serious stains even if you merely wash it for fingerprints...

Gaston

P.S. Unfortunately, I won't be able to post pics for a while, as my camera uploading program has somehow malfunctionned in my computer, and won't show me the "F" device...

G.
 
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Gaston,

Thanks for the detailed review of the Clinton. Sounds like you're happy with it, which is good to hear. To give it more of a "survival knife" feel, your knife would be a good candidate for a hone pocket, mini survival kit like the one I made for my Randall #5.


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Nice work on your kit TAH! Is the wooden box a container?

Below is something similar to what I put inside my Clinton's sheath pouch, but with a superglued transparent lid to seal it, and a piece of 600 grit sandpaper carefully glued on the outside to serve as a hone (an idea from Cricketdave!): The plastic box is strong, rigid and uncrushable: The only downside of it, compared to a hollow handle, is that once the lid is unsealed, it cannot be resealed again, but it can still hold everything tightly as before. The compass can be used without opening the box...

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The Clinton is really the first Randall, out of 3, that did not disappoint me in any way. The only real flaw is the sheath could take a 1/3" or more longer blade, so the blade could be quite a bit longer. The blade is actually 6.9", and this seems a constant in Randalls that they are 1/10" shorter than the claimed figure. The Clinton's blade simply seemed a lot better made than either of my other two Randalls...

The neat thing is that this is the only dagger I've ever seen that has no compromise at all on the sharpness/geometry, and is in fact a far thinner and better slicer than about 95%+ of single edge knives out there, without any compromise in strength, including the tip....

Gaston
 
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Gaston444 said:
Is the wooden box a container?
Click to expand...

The block of wood is fatwood (tinder) and there's enough there to start many fires. Just shave off a small pile and strike it with the firesteel. I shaped the fatwood to the exact size needed. It's a little narrower and shorter than the sharpening stone, which was needed to accommodate the firesteel on the side and the compass at the bottom. Everything in my kit is waterproof, so there is no need for it to be sealed. Your kit is the same idea, just different components.

BTW, how long is the guard on your Randall Survival Dagger? That sounds cooler than Clinton Special. :)
 
Yes, "Clinton Special" is iffy...

The guard is exactly 3.75" long, on a just 6.9 inch blade, so the guard is actually quite a bit longer than half the length of the blade! The guard is only around 0.8 inch broad right to left, so it doesn't bother me, as it doesn't "bulge" the sheath outward the way it does on a true Model 18 guard: The dagger's guard fits nicely in the sheath, and I actually like the way the lashing holes are hanging just outside the sheath on both sides... I really objected to the right/left width of the "real" Model 18 guard, which seems easily an inch, which is why I like the modified Model 18 version I did much better... The "real" Model 18 guard looks and feel like a tsuba guard in comparison...

Of note is that the pitch of the finger grooves is very slightly tighter on the dagger than on my Model 14, and that actually fits my large hands even better than the original Model 14 handle...: This means there is some leeway for these grooves to feel right, but that the original Model 14 finger grooves can really accomodate very large hands... The "Survival Dagger" feels like it melts in my hand...

I am mystified as to how the micarta is hollowed out to accept the stick tang, as the top of the handle is not exposed steel like on my Model 14 handle... I hope this doesn't mean the tang is short...

Gaston
 
The guard on your survival dagger is noticeably long, but it is in perfect proportion to the width of the blade. I also like how they left the handle larger at the end. I agree the #18 guard feels a little wide, since it is not tapered like the Timberline and Lile guards. I must say, Randall is very committed to their initial research and design - once they design a knife, they don't change it much, if at all.

Not sure how long the tang extends into the handle of your dagger. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think these Randall guys know what they are doing. :thumbup:
 
TAH said:
Not sure how long the tang extends into the handle of your dagger. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think these Randall guys know what they are doing. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

I'm not worried :)... Another thing I really like is that the handle is seriously dropped to one side: I may not show up on pics as much, but it is one of those unusual things that makes it feel like a chopper: Very, very unusual to see this on a dagger: Different, and yet completely functional...

I'm guessing the Randalls are on Ebay? I saw at least one sold sheathless...

Gaston
 
Even if I had $90k I'd never pay it for a knife that would never get used , let alone one that's already been abused
 
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