- Joined
- Apr 20, 2001
- Messages
- 18,423
Yeah, part of why I bought this one, it has a few marks from use and sharpening and "dings" like those. Not sure I could buy a mint one and use it.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread
- Thread starter Sam Wilson
- Start date
Yeah, part of why I bought this one, it has a few marks from use and sharpening and "dings" like those. Not sure I could buy a mint one and use it.
Just got this directly from Wall himself on Ebay: I got it for a very reasonable $350 US: That is an incredibly low price for a knife of this quality:
I really like the extra long handle, as I find it coud be of use for increasing chopping potential (internal capacity I know is not in proportion): It is also a signature of Wall knives, and is "different" in a way I very much like...: You will not confuse this with any other maker...: The potential for an increased rearward grip compensates for the issue of balance in my view (and the diameter is small enough not to be too cumbersome)...
I like the 60+ RC too, and the way the point's tip is shaped to avoid breakage... I like much less the carbon O1 steel, but I don't mind it on an "impulse" buy...
Unlike the Martin knives, the "raker" teeth here are really sharp on top, and this is more in line with their potential use as "barbs", when lashed at the end of a pole... Another thing I really like is the guard is not that overly broad and massive half-circle near the handle: Just something like 5/16" of overhang on either side, very functional...
Even the clip appears sharpened, and the blade is convex-edged, which is very unusual on a hollow handle: I don't like re-sharpening convex edges, but these are usually done much thinner than V edges, so as an impulse buy that will probably just be admired, again that's actually very good...
What sold me on the knife is something you can always use to gauge the actual precision with which a sawback survival knife is made: I discovered this issue when comparing the sawback on my TOPS Hellion to my Vaugh Neeley SA9: The TOPS saw has slightly rounded surfaces near the teeth's corners, I guess in line with the lower price...: This robs considerable performance to what is already the marginal concept of a saw on such a thick knife blade: The Vaugh Neeley SA9 on the other hand is absolutely razor-crisp in its teeth edges, with dead-flat surfaces all the way to the corner (except the top surface, which is hollow to boost the corner sharpness further than any other sawback!).
If you look at close-ups of the original movie First Blood #5, or any Lile on Ebay with good pictures, you will see the crispness of the teeth corners is good quality, but not the absolute crispness that is evident on the Neeleys (The Neeley "Next Generation" First Bloods are probably superior to the originals on that issue)...
On the Wall "First Blood inspired" above, the teeth corners are of superior crispness, despite the reasonable price, and basically are on par with a Vaugh Neeley First Blood! That is hugely impressive and makes this a great value for the price...
Gaston
I really like the extra long handle, as I find it coud be of use for increasing chopping potential (internal capacity I know is not in proportion): It is also a signature of Wall knives, and is "different" in a way I very much like...: You will not confuse this with any other maker...: The potential for an increased rearward grip compensates for the issue of balance in my view (and the diameter is small enough not to be too cumbersome)...
I like the 60+ RC too, and the way the point's tip is shaped to avoid breakage... I like much less the carbon O1 steel, but I don't mind it on an "impulse" buy...
Unlike the Martin knives, the "raker" teeth here are really sharp on top, and this is more in line with their potential use as "barbs", when lashed at the end of a pole... Another thing I really like is the guard is not that overly broad and massive half-circle near the handle: Just something like 5/16" of overhang on either side, very functional...
Even the clip appears sharpened, and the blade is convex-edged, which is very unusual on a hollow handle: I don't like re-sharpening convex edges, but these are usually done much thinner than V edges, so as an impulse buy that will probably just be admired, again that's actually very good...
What sold me on the knife is something you can always use to gauge the actual precision with which a sawback survival knife is made: I discovered this issue when comparing the sawback on my TOPS Hellion to my Vaugh Neeley SA9: The TOPS saw has slightly rounded surfaces near the teeth's corners, I guess in line with the lower price...: This robs considerable performance to what is already the marginal concept of a saw on such a thick knife blade: The Vaugh Neeley SA9 on the other hand is absolutely razor-crisp in its teeth edges, with dead-flat surfaces all the way to the corner (except the top surface, which is hollow to boost the corner sharpness further than any other sawback!).
If you look at close-ups of the original movie First Blood #5, or any Lile on Ebay with good pictures, you will see the crispness of the teeth corners is good quality, but not the absolute crispness that is evident on the Neeleys (The Neeley "Next Generation" First Bloods are probably superior to the originals on that issue)...
On the Wall "First Blood inspired" above, the teeth corners are of superior crispness, despite the reasonable price, and basically are on par with a Vaugh Neeley First Blood! That is hugely impressive and makes this a great value for the price...
Gaston
Last edited:
Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,041
That's a nice knife Gaston, at a very nice price. Wall does a great job. Congratulations.
Thanks Sam!
Here is something else that just caught my eye on Ebay: After seeing the sharp-topped raker teeths on my Wall, I gave the available Lile Mission knives a closer look... And I have to say it was a real surprise: If you remember my mentionning the peculiar way the clip is ground on a Lile First Blood, and how it abruptly thins the blade from 1/4" to 1/8" at the clip: This kind of made sense in the context of the forward teeth being barbs, and the knife's forward part being used to spear small prey... It does rob it of a lot of tip strength and chopping power, but overall the design still made sense...
With that in mind I had allways assumed the larger Lile Mission knife was far stronger in the clip/point geometry, and had always been a much better chopper, since the clip grind was more like you would find on any regular Bowie: Which is to say, the clip's grind not coming down straight down the side, but being just a curved bevel, with no sharp vertical "rear".
Well imagine my surprise when I found out that two "Mission" knives on Ebay have perfect spine-oriented pictures in their gallery, and this is where I found out the clip portion of the bade is relatively even thinner than the First Blood!:
This is an original Lile Mission:
This is another one:
This is an Andy Woods made First Blood replica, said to be the most accurate ever made...
Andy Wood paid specific attention to get the point geometry correct: There is no question the First Blood's point is no more fragile, and may actually be much stronger, than the Mission's elongated clip point... Of note is that the "barbs/raker" teeth also have flat spots on top, although significantly smaller ones...
It is very apparent from these pictures that even the larger Mission knife is very, very lightly constructed in the point, and would not be a great chopper despite its size. Also note the the "barbs/raker" teeth have large flat spots on top... Based on the above pictures, I have to say I find the point of the Mission knife to be so thin as to make it a non-functional knife... I definitely prefer the First Blood knife: Not even close...
This is just like when I found out Al Mar's SF-10 was only 3/16" thick: I was about to plunk down on it, and I lost all interest immediately when I saw that: 3/16" is too thin even for 7.5" in my opinion... I was seriously considering getting a Mission Lile, until I saw this: Those spine picture, in the long term, probably will save me two plus grands eventually... A good way to start saving for one of the original 13...
Gaston
Here is something else that just caught my eye on Ebay: After seeing the sharp-topped raker teeths on my Wall, I gave the available Lile Mission knives a closer look... And I have to say it was a real surprise: If you remember my mentionning the peculiar way the clip is ground on a Lile First Blood, and how it abruptly thins the blade from 1/4" to 1/8" at the clip: This kind of made sense in the context of the forward teeth being barbs, and the knife's forward part being used to spear small prey... It does rob it of a lot of tip strength and chopping power, but overall the design still made sense...
With that in mind I had allways assumed the larger Lile Mission knife was far stronger in the clip/point geometry, and had always been a much better chopper, since the clip grind was more like you would find on any regular Bowie: Which is to say, the clip's grind not coming down straight down the side, but being just a curved bevel, with no sharp vertical "rear".
Well imagine my surprise when I found out that two "Mission" knives on Ebay have perfect spine-oriented pictures in their gallery, and this is where I found out the clip portion of the bade is relatively even thinner than the First Blood!:
This is an original Lile Mission:
This is another one:
This is an Andy Woods made First Blood replica, said to be the most accurate ever made...
Andy Wood paid specific attention to get the point geometry correct: There is no question the First Blood's point is no more fragile, and may actually be much stronger, than the Mission's elongated clip point... Of note is that the "barbs/raker" teeth also have flat spots on top, although significantly smaller ones...
It is very apparent from these pictures that even the larger Mission knife is very, very lightly constructed in the point, and would not be a great chopper despite its size. Also note the the "barbs/raker" teeth have large flat spots on top... Based on the above pictures, I have to say I find the point of the Mission knife to be so thin as to make it a non-functional knife... I definitely prefer the First Blood knife: Not even close...
This is just like when I found out Al Mar's SF-10 was only 3/16" thick: I was about to plunk down on it, and I lost all interest immediately when I saw that: 3/16" is too thin even for 7.5" in my opinion... I was seriously considering getting a Mission Lile, until I saw this: Those spine picture, in the long term, probably will save me two plus grands eventually... A good way to start saving for one of the original 13...
Gaston
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 5,548
More rain today, this is the same creek I posted yesterday
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,135
The First Blood knife was also designed to fill in as a fighter, which would explain the thin clip point. Here is part of Lile's description...
"And last but not least, it must be a dependable offensive or defensive weapon, as the situation might dictate."
Nice looking Wall knife. Compass in buttcap?
Thanks!
Yes there is a compass in the buttcap:
The nice convex grind is visible here: As long as it is sharp, I don't mind what grind it is...:
The 0-1 steel is scarier though, as my experience on My Model 18 is that it stains while washing it... If that happens I'll Cerakoat it, but I like the way it looks as it is now, so I'll be careful...: More a "reserve" than a hard-core user then... You can't beat the price...: $350 is unreal for that kind of quality: I think the time elapsed between my first knowing this knife existed, and purchasing it, was around 90 seconds... I went for it so fast I didn't even know it was O-1: Then I read the description...
Gaston
Yes there is a compass in the buttcap:
The nice convex grind is visible here: As long as it is sharp, I don't mind what grind it is...:
The 0-1 steel is scarier though, as my experience on My Model 18 is that it stains while washing it... If that happens I'll Cerakoat it, but I like the way it looks as it is now, so I'll be careful...: More a "reserve" than a hard-core user then... You can't beat the price...: $350 is unreal for that kind of quality: I think the time elapsed between my first knowing this knife existed, and purchasing it, was around 90 seconds... I went for it so fast I didn't even know it was O-1: Then I read the description...
Gaston
Last edited:
Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,041
Gaston, why don't you cold blue it? It is very easy to do, and much easier to undo than Cerakote if you decide you don't like it. It makes it noticeably more resistant to stains, it doesn't show scratches as much, and is very cheap and easy to do at home. It is also easy to touch up. If you decide to Cerakote it later, you can simply wipe on Bluing Remover and get back to bare steel quickly.
Thanks for the suggestion: It definitely is something to think about if it reduces stains. Is it possible to make the blueing dark enough to appear black?
I really liked how my Model 18 turned out in Cerakoat Bronze, and the finish is quite insensitive to sheath wear, even on the grind peaks: It is a baked-on dip, so the blade would have to be re-sharpened... It is funny, but I don't think Bronze or Coyote Brown would suit all blades styles, including this Wall for instance: I have a hard time imagining a color other than steel or, at most, light gray on the Wall... You kind of have to think of the color carefully... I sent my CR Jereboam to be Cerakoated (the original finish is well worn in places), and I realized Bronze would not quite work, but I did not want black... I went for US Olive Drab instead... It's different, yet says "as issued" to me...
Gaston
I really liked how my Model 18 turned out in Cerakoat Bronze, and the finish is quite insensitive to sheath wear, even on the grind peaks: It is a baked-on dip, so the blade would have to be re-sharpened... It is funny, but I don't think Bronze or Coyote Brown would suit all blades styles, including this Wall for instance: I have a hard time imagining a color other than steel or, at most, light gray on the Wall... You kind of have to think of the color carefully... I sent my CR Jereboam to be Cerakoated (the original finish is well worn in places), and I realized Bronze would not quite work, but I did not want black... I went for US Olive Drab instead... It's different, yet says "as issued" to me...
Gaston
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,135
Does that new compass already have a bubble in it? :grumpy:
As for the blade, you could also give it a forced patina by soaking it in a jar of white vinegar. The longer it soaks, the darker it will get. You won't have to worry about stains and it does provide some protection to rust.
If it has a bubble, I'll get the compass out, or put in another: I'd rather use the space anyway... As for the 0-1, I think I'll just try to keep the blade oiled...
The design is fantastic, I like everything about it... The edge is probably as thin as a Randall, which is the one flaw I really hate on my Neeley SA9, at about three times thicker on the edge bevel, even if it is quite sharp now... The Wall site doesn't contain much info about it, but Wall makes videos on Youtube where you see one 9" with a steel guard/black cord stainless version: I have to say I find the brass guard/green cord handle of mine much more fetching...
By the way, my own Neeley SA9 includes some interesting insights concerning the "economics" of making high-end Hollow Handle Survival Knives: As you know, Vaugh Neeley is the current accredited Lile knife maker, and is the only one, as far as I know, authorized to stamps his blades with the "Lile" logo: Each of these sells for $2250, and, from what I can see, excepting the fact flat ground blades are said to be a bit harder to do, the Lile pattern is not more work than the Neeley SA9 pattern: I would even say the SA9s, with their sabre grind, delicately concave hollow ground clip surfaces, and its hollow-top sawteeths, are, if nothing else, probably harder work...
The really interesting insight comes from the Mike Welze site: Apparently Mike Welze begged Neeley to make 25 of the SA9s after seeing the one-off prototype, which seems to imply Neeley had little interest in doing them...: This is quite understandable given that, for the same amount of work, they go for far less than Liles... On the Welze site, the prototype SA9 and others went for around $600-800, a huge step down from $2250, for presumably roughly the same work... To put this in perspective, I got mine from "Onlinewarehouseco" on Ebay which had four new ones, and a bunch of smaller models as well: I got mine from them in brand new condition, or at least "new old stock" condition, for $450... An unbelievably low price...
Mine is etched 004SA9: So mine is the fourth production knife made, bought by me around January 2015... This is the interesting part: Below the SA9 serial number is the etching "VN0410", which I take to mean my particular knife was made by Vaugh in April of 2010... So this means that when I finally purchased my knife, it had been waiting in one dealer place or another for FIVE years before finding a taker at half price... Not only that, but out of only 25, there were four available at just that one Ebay dealer alone, including at least one very early serial number, and those four sat there for months before I decided to get mine (I waited that long because I could see, just from the pictures, that the edge bevel was really thick, and that it would prove a real bear to thin out, which proved a completely correct photo analysis...), then I posted my reaction to it as a customer online, warts and all, and all of a sudden the other 3 were gone in less than a week...
Similarly, my Chris Reeves Jereboam was brand new in box, everything complete, and I bought it online from a dealer in 2010 (just before the one-piece line was discontinued), and yet its birthday card said it was made in 2004... From the package condition alone, I am sure it had never had any other owner... No wonder Chris Reeves never bothered to continue production, once his African source of the pre-shaped round bar stock was gone...
The point is, the market for these things is small... This doesn't seem to be a "hot" design category by any stretch... I even have a feeling that, outside the Liles, it is more the makers pushing their passion for the concept than any real response to a perceived market out there...
In many ways, it seems to me it's a better time to be a fan of those things than to be their maker...
Gaston
The design is fantastic, I like everything about it... The edge is probably as thin as a Randall, which is the one flaw I really hate on my Neeley SA9, at about three times thicker on the edge bevel, even if it is quite sharp now... The Wall site doesn't contain much info about it, but Wall makes videos on Youtube where you see one 9" with a steel guard/black cord stainless version: I have to say I find the brass guard/green cord handle of mine much more fetching...
By the way, my own Neeley SA9 includes some interesting insights concerning the "economics" of making high-end Hollow Handle Survival Knives: As you know, Vaugh Neeley is the current accredited Lile knife maker, and is the only one, as far as I know, authorized to stamps his blades with the "Lile" logo: Each of these sells for $2250, and, from what I can see, excepting the fact flat ground blades are said to be a bit harder to do, the Lile pattern is not more work than the Neeley SA9 pattern: I would even say the SA9s, with their sabre grind, delicately concave hollow ground clip surfaces, and its hollow-top sawteeths, are, if nothing else, probably harder work...
The really interesting insight comes from the Mike Welze site: Apparently Mike Welze begged Neeley to make 25 of the SA9s after seeing the one-off prototype, which seems to imply Neeley had little interest in doing them...: This is quite understandable given that, for the same amount of work, they go for far less than Liles... On the Welze site, the prototype SA9 and others went for around $600-800, a huge step down from $2250, for presumably roughly the same work... To put this in perspective, I got mine from "Onlinewarehouseco" on Ebay which had four new ones, and a bunch of smaller models as well: I got mine from them in brand new condition, or at least "new old stock" condition, for $450... An unbelievably low price...
Mine is etched 004SA9: So mine is the fourth production knife made, bought by me around January 2015... This is the interesting part: Below the SA9 serial number is the etching "VN0410", which I take to mean my particular knife was made by Vaugh in April of 2010... So this means that when I finally purchased my knife, it had been waiting in one dealer place or another for FIVE years before finding a taker at half price... Not only that, but out of only 25, there were four available at just that one Ebay dealer alone, including at least one very early serial number, and those four sat there for months before I decided to get mine (I waited that long because I could see, just from the pictures, that the edge bevel was really thick, and that it would prove a real bear to thin out, which proved a completely correct photo analysis...), then I posted my reaction to it as a customer online, warts and all, and all of a sudden the other 3 were gone in less than a week...
Similarly, my Chris Reeves Jereboam was brand new in box, everything complete, and I bought it online from a dealer in 2010 (just before the one-piece line was discontinued), and yet its birthday card said it was made in 2004... From the package condition alone, I am sure it had never had any other owner... No wonder Chris Reeves never bothered to continue production, once his African source of the pre-shaped round bar stock was gone...
The point is, the market for these things is small... This doesn't seem to be a "hot" design category by any stretch... I even have a feeling that, outside the Liles, it is more the makers pushing their passion for the concept than any real response to a perceived market out there...
In many ways, it seems to me it's a better time to be a fan of those things than to be their maker...
Gaston
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,135
Install a NATO dry compass and never be irritated again.
Miles, not Mike.
I'm pretty sure 0410 is just a climbing serial number for the SA model. At least, that's the way it was for Timberline, but I could be wrong.
Here's a peculiar one: 0074 and "Skorpion"... Anyone knows where this comes from? I smell something Eastern block or other...:
Gaston
Bill Siegle said:
Bill is right. You can see one new in the box at this link -
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...om-Swedish-bayonet?highlight=paragon+skorpion .
That Paragon was on the west coast, I think Idaho, not to be confused with Paragon of North Carolina.
This is the serial number of a 1980s Timberline SA:
It seems the serial number was always next to the name of the knife model: Mine says 004SA9 with VN0410 on the other line below.
The second line appears to have been added to distinguish the non-Timberline series made 20+ years later by Vaugh himself.
This is the prototype SA of the re-started Vaugh Neeley line:
This is actually interesting, as the SA is the only model type of truly 1980s vintage: All the others similar models exist only from the recent re-start (as far as I know)... This "Prototype" SA defines when the SAs were re-started by Vaugh himself: January 2008, or about twenty years after the last of the previous ones... I remember reading somewhere the production of the original SAs was around 7-800, which today seems to me absolutely insanely high... Maybe they were produced longer than a few years?... I guess that was what the heyday of Hollow Handles was like.
I remember vividly seeing an SA in Paris France, at a gunshop, in 1986... I never dared ask the clerk to see it: The contemporary equivalent of C $800 back then: Like C $1600 + today... French prices are something else... To me this was the most desirable knife in the world, litterally for decades on end... I guess it was a good thing I never looked at that one closely...: Look in the image above how uspeakably dull is the edge's primary bevel... I know now the old 1980s ones were the same... Good God. I can just imagine now, with the wobbly friable stones I had back then (and the very limited skills and patience), what the resulting re-profiled edge would have been... Brrr!
The one good thing about the way the SAs are ground is very apparent compared to the Lile "Mission", and even the Andy Wood First Bloods: They are so stout in geometry (including particularly in the point geometry) that they would absolutely put the thickest Busse to shame: Absolutely indestructible stuff... Easily ten times as strong as any Lile... I'm not sure that's the whole "point" of a knife, but I garantee you will never see a broken SA series...
In case this is of interest, this strenght does not apply to the current Vaugh Neeley First Bloods: I compared recently an overhead view of a "Next Generation" Neeley-made First Blood to the Andy Woods version, and there is no doubt the Andy Wood version has a significantly stronger point geometry, because the sides of the point are slightly "swollen", while the sides are flatter and thinner on the current "Lile" production. Even the Andy Woods version is a bit marginal in tip strength in my view, and I would have been utterly shocked to know how thinly the points were ground in the 1980s, especially on the "Misssion"...
Gaston
Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,041
Hey guys, I didn't want to totally derail the HH thread, but I have introduced a new model in THIS THREAD HERE. Here is a pic of the M7 (Model 7):
I look forward to any feedback or constructive criticism, and please feel free to post in that thread, or in this one here, it makes no difference to me. Thank you very much, and I look forward to what fellow hollow handle knife devotees have to say!
Thank you,
Sam Wilson
I look forward to any feedback or constructive criticism, and please feel free to post in that thread, or in this one here, it makes no difference to me. Thank you very much, and I look forward to what fellow hollow handle knife devotees have to say!
Thank you,
Sam Wilson
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,135
Yep, I think you're correct on the numbers. Regardless of the vintage, those Timberline/Neeleys are beautiful. :thumbup:
Hey guys, I didn't want to totally derail the HH thread, but I have introduced a new model in THIS THREAD HERE. Here is a pic of the M7 (Model 7):
I look forward to any feedback or constructive criticism, and please feel free to post in that thread, or in this one here, it makes no difference to me. Thank you very much, and I look forward to what fellow hollow handle knife devotees have to say!
Thank you,
Sam Wilson
Wow that Model 7 is just a superb design. Love the extra-long handle and the modest guard. This is one of the best mid-size designs I have seen. The big pouch is in keeping with maximizing the Survival concept...
This is 7.5": I would love to see the 9"...
Gaston
Last edited:
Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,041
Thank you, Gaston. Plenty of storage space and maximizing any chopping ability were important design considerations for this one. And since this isn't primarily a combat knife, a smaller more comfortable guard that didn't get in the way of bushcraft type chores was what I was after. I appreciate the compliment.
As far as the 9" version, I build these to order. So when I get an order for one and complete it, believe me, I will be here to show it off.
Thank you,
Sam
Hey guys, I didn't want to totally derail the HH thread, but I have introduced a new model in THIS THREAD HERE. Here is a pic of the M7 (Model 7):
I look forward to any feedback or constructive criticism, and please feel free to post in that thread, or in this one here, it makes no difference to me. Thank you very much, and I look forward to what fellow hollow handle knife devotees have to say!
Thank you,
Sam Wilson
You didn't derail the thread.