Sam Wilson
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
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THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread
- Thread starter Sam Wilson
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Sam was giving me a hard time about the rain the other night so I hiked down my creek and took a few pics
Blade sure looks clean after all the beating on it i've done, wd40 cleans up bead blast great.
Blade sure looks clean after all the beating on it i've done, wd40 cleans up bead blast great.
Sam Wilson
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Nice Dave. Cool pics, and glad you're still above ground down there. Even if you are under water. Next time, one word: waders. What are you, Rambo or something??? 
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Waders are for girls I had my jungle boots on lol
and ever time I got out in the woods with that knife I'm channeling my inner Rambo
and ever time I got out in the woods with that knife I'm channeling my inner Rambo
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Nice shot of the knife stuck in a rock, splitting water Dave! Excalibur and "Knife in the water" all in one...
I am looking for input from any owner of the Al Mar SF-10...: I have several issues with the design: 3/16" stock is inappropriate for such a large 10" bowie blade in my opinion (though some listings claim it is 1/4": Which is it?), the choice of Aus-6 steel (equivalent to 440A) is kind of not first-rate(...), the broad, clumsy guard (although not excessively vertically tall), the thin so-so leather sheath with weird over-the-pommel snap strap(!), the interesting double edged blade grind which robs a huge amount of potential blade mass (weight is 23 ounces with the nylon sheath, so I figure around 18 ounces for the knife alone, or very close to a First Blood)...
The handle diameter looks too large to me, and removing the reddish rope will reveal no knurling under the wrapping to help grip it unwrapped (as far as I know).
Despite the lowered sabre grind, due to the double edged design with a broad center "spine", the edge is quite thin in a Randall-like fashion, a very attractive feature... The spine serration are also a very original substitution to a sawback, and their design is unusually aggressive... Serrations done like this are far from useless, and will outlast by many, many multiples a normal edge under abusive use with no sharpening (serrations of this kind can be clumsy, but they go on cutting/slicing forever compared to any edge, an underestimated advantage very relevant to "Survival")... The worst aspect of the design for me is the curved upswept clip design, which also looks out of proportion to the knife: I hate upturned/curved bowie clips...
Basically this knife seems to be designed with the concern: How to do a sawback hollow handle that is somewhat fuctional in most respects, but more importantly looks like no other?: Complete success in my view...
Now this is where the plot thickens: I came accross this post by a knifemaker. This guys last post was in 2005 and this thread was in 2003, so I don't think I'll get an answer to my email query... It sound credible to me: This is actually the only (marginally) detailed instance I remember hearing of a quality Hollow Handle knife breaking in "normal" use, and this was not the only failure...:
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JEBlades JEBlades is offline
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i have to contradict the Al Mar recommendation (from my experiences anyway), while the craftsmanship ,fit and finish set new standards for production knives in the 80's and early 90's, i experienced a number of critical failures during moderate to hard use:
1: Al Mar Warrior blade snapped clean across the guard area during striking drills
2: Al Mar SF-10 handle failure during chopping
3: Al Mar SF-10(my second one) warpage of cutting edge during chopping
In fairness TO AMK, i did not have any failures from the SERE fixed blade, Pathfinder machete, Shugoto(?)II tanto,ROWE commemerative combat or A-F fighter.
....but it did seem like too many failures considering the price and reputation of AMK. These were actually one of the driving forces behind me becoming a custom knifemaker.
Regards"
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I'd be very curious to hear more opinions about this peculiar Hollow Handle, especially the edge geometry and the general convenience of its features, like the handle diameter and the serrations...
Gaston
I am looking for input from any owner of the Al Mar SF-10...: I have several issues with the design: 3/16" stock is inappropriate for such a large 10" bowie blade in my opinion (though some listings claim it is 1/4": Which is it?), the choice of Aus-6 steel (equivalent to 440A) is kind of not first-rate(...), the broad, clumsy guard (although not excessively vertically tall), the thin so-so leather sheath with weird over-the-pommel snap strap(!), the interesting double edged blade grind which robs a huge amount of potential blade mass (weight is 23 ounces with the nylon sheath, so I figure around 18 ounces for the knife alone, or very close to a First Blood)...
The handle diameter looks too large to me, and removing the reddish rope will reveal no knurling under the wrapping to help grip it unwrapped (as far as I know).
Despite the lowered sabre grind, due to the double edged design with a broad center "spine", the edge is quite thin in a Randall-like fashion, a very attractive feature... The spine serration are also a very original substitution to a sawback, and their design is unusually aggressive... Serrations done like this are far from useless, and will outlast by many, many multiples a normal edge under abusive use with no sharpening (serrations of this kind can be clumsy, but they go on cutting/slicing forever compared to any edge, an underestimated advantage very relevant to "Survival")... The worst aspect of the design for me is the curved upswept clip design, which also looks out of proportion to the knife: I hate upturned/curved bowie clips...
Basically this knife seems to be designed with the concern: How to do a sawback hollow handle that is somewhat fuctional in most respects, but more importantly looks like no other?: Complete success in my view...
Now this is where the plot thickens: I came accross this post by a knifemaker. This guys last post was in 2005 and this thread was in 2003, so I don't think I'll get an answer to my email query... It sound credible to me: This is actually the only (marginally) detailed instance I remember hearing of a quality Hollow Handle knife breaking in "normal" use, and this was not the only failure...:
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JEBlades JEBlades is offline
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i have to contradict the Al Mar recommendation (from my experiences anyway), while the craftsmanship ,fit and finish set new standards for production knives in the 80's and early 90's, i experienced a number of critical failures during moderate to hard use:
1: Al Mar Warrior blade snapped clean across the guard area during striking drills
2: Al Mar SF-10 handle failure during chopping
3: Al Mar SF-10(my second one) warpage of cutting edge during chopping
In fairness TO AMK, i did not have any failures from the SERE fixed blade, Pathfinder machete, Shugoto(?)II tanto,ROWE commemerative combat or A-F fighter.
....but it did seem like too many failures considering the price and reputation of AMK. These were actually one of the driving forces behind me becoming a custom knifemaker.
Regards"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be very curious to hear more opinions about this peculiar Hollow Handle, especially the edge geometry and the general convenience of its features, like the handle diameter and the serrations...
Gaston
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Its been 30 years or so since I fondled the al mar hollow handle in a shop, my recollection was that the handle was about the same size as the Buckmaster, the blade was thin 3/16 sounds right. I also remember it as the single sharpest out of the box knife I've ever handled, the serrations were razor sharp too and well designed.
As for Al Mar's breaking, well I had several other models back then including the Warrior and had no issues at all with any of them, they were well made and well designed knives, and I was not remotely gentle with any of them.
As for Al Mar's breaking, well I had several other models back then including the Warrior and had no issues at all with any of them, they were well made and well designed knives, and I was not remotely gentle with any of them.
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Thanks guys for the kind comments on the pics too, I had a lot of fun scrambling around in the creek taking them. The one sticking straight up is my favorite as the water had quite a bit of speed on it rushing through there and it was almost squirting through the saw back.
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Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Waders are for girls I had my jungle boots on lol
and ever time I got out in the woods with that knife I'm channeling my inner Rambo
The resemblance is striking...
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Lmao just add a few muscles and drop 30years and that could be me. Well a short me lol
Thanks Dave, much appreciated.
I don't like the oversized upturned bowie clip design, so I'll probably pass on all the strange leather sheath versions (which are more common, unfortunately): The leather sheath is also quite thin, and simply doesn't inspire confidence from pictures... If I saw an Eagle sheath version, I would buy it just for the sheath alone! Those Eagle sheaths had first-rate rubber "hairy" inserts, and I consider them simply the best nylon sheaths ever made (once the stitching is superglued all around). That 10" compatible sheath could be used for any other big knife, so for that alone I would pay the $800... It would turn any Randall Model 12 into a big carrying-capacity Survival Knife... Spec-Ops are really dumb to stop at 8", and the insert is nowhere near as good...
Nice to know about the handle and sharpness though: Thanks.
Gaston
I just got my Wall Jimmy Lile style knife:
The first impressions were excellent, yet really peculiar: From pictures you would assume the handle is very long. It isn't: Barely 1/2" longer than the normal-looking handle of a Model 18...: The reason it looks so long is that this handle is so thin...: The difference in handle diameter with a Model 18 is again deceptively small: Around 1/16", but such a small difference in diameter has a huge effect on the circumference: The Wall has the thinnest hollow handle diameter I have ever held, and I have to say it offers the best grip of all the cord-wrapped versions despite my large hands: This is accentuated by the quality of the cord, which is even better than than the very thin stuff on the Vaugh Neeley SA9: The SA9 feels nice but verges on the slippery: The Wall cord is really outstanding stuff, and noticeably grippier...
The diameter difference with the Model 18 is accentuated by the 18 encouraging you to wrap 440 cord (I use 330) because of the hugely oversized buttcap, which just makes the 18's handle too big, if quite manageable...
On the Wall, not just the buttcap is aluminium, but so is the entire handle, and this weight effect, combined with the small handle diameter and the resonably thin tube walls (made even thinner to counter-sink the cord), has an effect on the knife's balance that litterally defies belief...: The balance point is a full inch in front of the guard, even with survival gear in the handle... The rubber-handled CS Trailmaster, with 9.5" and 5/16" stock, only manages 3/4", and even that was commendable... Two other design factors help this achievement: The Wall blade is not fully distal tapered due to the sawback portion (it even has a slight saber grind just below the saw), and, perhaps more importantly, the very shallow ricasso robs large amounts of dead mass nearer the handle, which also has a positive weight-forward effect (something the Chris Reeves Jereboam could have used to advantage, but didn't)...
Of all the 8-10" hollow handle knives I know of, this balance achievement must be absolutely unique: The First Bloods/Missions must be quite heavily rear balanced in comparison, because of their extra-thin points. Virtually all other such hollow handled knives don't have much blade-heavy balance, most often just because their handles are so heavy... My 9.5" Timberline SA9 stunned me with its neutral guard balance, this occurring because of its steel handle and non-hollowed mirror buttcap, made of a huge chunk of solid steel... Greg Wall's interpretation of how "petite" and lightweight a hollow handle can be is a true revelation: It handles beautifully, and is more compact and lighter than even regular non-hollow handles... It almost feels a bit effeminate...
On the downside: Capacity suffers of course, and is on par or less than the dreaded Chris Reeves compartment... The compartment is also only around half the length of the handle, barely over 2" deep, so I had to trim my Neeley-supplied ferro rod 1/8" to ensure the buttcap would close... The seal for the buttcap is a sub-par flat rubber piece, so it doesn't work at all, but, surprisingly enough, the machining tolerances are so tight that the buttcap is likely fully waterproof just metal to metal... My matches are plastic sealed anyway...
Some grinding tool marks are visible on the brass guard, but are well washed-out by polishing, and so they don't bother me... The blade finish is good and most of all symmetrical. The O-1 shows no real tendency to stain compared to Randall's (I think the higher polish may help), but being wary I didn't really try to test it...
From the blade surface finish point of view, the Wall cannot compare to the flawlessness of the Neeley SA9, but it is better than what is usually seen on Randalls. It does beat the Neeley in one surprising aspect, that is tough for any maker to get right: Even the best from Seki Japan, working on Al Mar knives, flub this badly for instance....: As the blade starts its taper, ahead of the full width double wood teeths, the symmetry of the point taper on mine is absolutely perfect: Even the inhumanly precise Neeley hesitates just a tiny bit on the symmetry of the "swelled" clip taper... What's more, the Wall's taper is not nearly "flat", as what I observed on "First Bloods" or "Missions" by Neeley or Lile, which makes the points needle-like and way too fragile, but the taper is "swelled" which results in a very strong point (further enhanced by a slightly excessive "rounded" point on mine).
The sheath finish is kind of matte-looking, but a good surprise in quality, and better finished and stitched in my view than those of Savage. And the snap is strong and way, way better than the weak nearly useless snaps Randalls and Savage will give you (you can squeeze the steel Randall snaps for more strenght, but it is dicey)... Also the broad snap strap is tight and not wrinkling at all under use, which is way better than the typical Randall strap again... I for one applaud the lack of stone pouch, as it just solves a lot of my inside the pants carry problems...: I can understand for open carriers how this is a negative...
Now for two things that don't work for me: The convex edge is as thin as a Randall V-edge, which is great, but on this Wall knife it was butter dull, and took me 3 solid hours on a coarse diamond hone to bring back to a useable V-edge... I don't hate convex edges, when sharp, but I just don't get convex edges, and probably never will... This thin edge makes this knife absolutely superior in practical terms to my Neeley SA9... I did get an amazing edge on my SA9, after multiple sessions over 3 months, but it will be a great edge once. That is, until it needs serious re-sharpening...
Which leads me to the one thing where the SA9 definitely wins on the "engineering" side over the Wall knife...: The saw on the Wall is equivalent to what Lile did on the First Bloods, and I can just tell by looking at it that it would be barely half as effective as the Neeley's intricate high-tech design (which is probably the best sawback ever, barring a comparison to the Parrish or Martin designs)...: Part of that difference is that the corners are not as crisply ground, but there are also things inherent to the Lile design that Neeley simply did better... Also the clip's "barbs" are sharp on the Wall (Liles have small flat tops, Martin big ones), but I don't think they are of any real use, even on small prey... I usually frown on non-functional features...
I also like for a knife to be made with inhuman precision, so the SA9 will remain my sentimental favourite (since I had been dreaming of the shorter 7.5" SA for 30 plus years...). But as a knife, the Wall is definitely the better knife over the long term, simply because of its edge thinness, and more efficient blade-heavy balance. It is a superior interpretation of the Lile design, with a far stronger point and a better balance for chopping.
Gaston
The first impressions were excellent, yet really peculiar: From pictures you would assume the handle is very long. It isn't: Barely 1/2" longer than the normal-looking handle of a Model 18...: The reason it looks so long is that this handle is so thin...: The difference in handle diameter with a Model 18 is again deceptively small: Around 1/16", but such a small difference in diameter has a huge effect on the circumference: The Wall has the thinnest hollow handle diameter I have ever held, and I have to say it offers the best grip of all the cord-wrapped versions despite my large hands: This is accentuated by the quality of the cord, which is even better than than the very thin stuff on the Vaugh Neeley SA9: The SA9 feels nice but verges on the slippery: The Wall cord is really outstanding stuff, and noticeably grippier...
The diameter difference with the Model 18 is accentuated by the 18 encouraging you to wrap 440 cord (I use 330) because of the hugely oversized buttcap, which just makes the 18's handle too big, if quite manageable...
On the Wall, not just the buttcap is aluminium, but so is the entire handle, and this weight effect, combined with the small handle diameter and the resonably thin tube walls (made even thinner to counter-sink the cord), has an effect on the knife's balance that litterally defies belief...: The balance point is a full inch in front of the guard, even with survival gear in the handle... The rubber-handled CS Trailmaster, with 9.5" and 5/16" stock, only manages 3/4", and even that was commendable... Two other design factors help this achievement: The Wall blade is not fully distal tapered due to the sawback portion (it even has a slight saber grind just below the saw), and, perhaps more importantly, the very shallow ricasso robs large amounts of dead mass nearer the handle, which also has a positive weight-forward effect (something the Chris Reeves Jereboam could have used to advantage, but didn't)...
Of all the 8-10" hollow handle knives I know of, this balance achievement must be absolutely unique: The First Bloods/Missions must be quite heavily rear balanced in comparison, because of their extra-thin points. Virtually all other such hollow handled knives don't have much blade-heavy balance, most often just because their handles are so heavy... My 9.5" Timberline SA9 stunned me with its neutral guard balance, this occurring because of its steel handle and non-hollowed mirror buttcap, made of a huge chunk of solid steel... Greg Wall's interpretation of how "petite" and lightweight a hollow handle can be is a true revelation: It handles beautifully, and is more compact and lighter than even regular non-hollow handles... It almost feels a bit effeminate...
On the downside: Capacity suffers of course, and is on par or less than the dreaded Chris Reeves compartment... The compartment is also only around half the length of the handle, barely over 2" deep, so I had to trim my Neeley-supplied ferro rod 1/8" to ensure the buttcap would close... The seal for the buttcap is a sub-par flat rubber piece, so it doesn't work at all, but, surprisingly enough, the machining tolerances are so tight that the buttcap is likely fully waterproof just metal to metal... My matches are plastic sealed anyway...
Some grinding tool marks are visible on the brass guard, but are well washed-out by polishing, and so they don't bother me... The blade finish is good and most of all symmetrical. The O-1 shows no real tendency to stain compared to Randall's (I think the higher polish may help), but being wary I didn't really try to test it...
From the blade surface finish point of view, the Wall cannot compare to the flawlessness of the Neeley SA9, but it is better than what is usually seen on Randalls. It does beat the Neeley in one surprising aspect, that is tough for any maker to get right: Even the best from Seki Japan, working on Al Mar knives, flub this badly for instance....: As the blade starts its taper, ahead of the full width double wood teeths, the symmetry of the point taper on mine is absolutely perfect: Even the inhumanly precise Neeley hesitates just a tiny bit on the symmetry of the "swelled" clip taper... What's more, the Wall's taper is not nearly "flat", as what I observed on "First Bloods" or "Missions" by Neeley or Lile, which makes the points needle-like and way too fragile, but the taper is "swelled" which results in a very strong point (further enhanced by a slightly excessive "rounded" point on mine).
The sheath finish is kind of matte-looking, but a good surprise in quality, and better finished and stitched in my view than those of Savage. And the snap is strong and way, way better than the weak nearly useless snaps Randalls and Savage will give you (you can squeeze the steel Randall snaps for more strenght, but it is dicey)... Also the broad snap strap is tight and not wrinkling at all under use, which is way better than the typical Randall strap again... I for one applaud the lack of stone pouch, as it just solves a lot of my inside the pants carry problems...: I can understand for open carriers how this is a negative...
Now for two things that don't work for me: The convex edge is as thin as a Randall V-edge, which is great, but on this Wall knife it was butter dull, and took me 3 solid hours on a coarse diamond hone to bring back to a useable V-edge... I don't hate convex edges, when sharp, but I just don't get convex edges, and probably never will... This thin edge makes this knife absolutely superior in practical terms to my Neeley SA9... I did get an amazing edge on my SA9, after multiple sessions over 3 months, but it will be a great edge once. That is, until it needs serious re-sharpening...
Which leads me to the one thing where the SA9 definitely wins on the "engineering" side over the Wall knife...: The saw on the Wall is equivalent to what Lile did on the First Bloods, and I can just tell by looking at it that it would be barely half as effective as the Neeley's intricate high-tech design (which is probably the best sawback ever, barring a comparison to the Parrish or Martin designs)...: Part of that difference is that the corners are not as crisply ground, but there are also things inherent to the Lile design that Neeley simply did better... Also the clip's "barbs" are sharp on the Wall (Liles have small flat tops, Martin big ones), but I don't think they are of any real use, even on small prey... I usually frown on non-functional features...
I also like for a knife to be made with inhuman precision, so the SA9 will remain my sentimental favourite (since I had been dreaming of the shorter 7.5" SA for 30 plus years...). But as a knife, the Wall is definitely the better knife over the long term, simply because of its edge thinness, and more efficient blade-heavy balance. It is a superior interpretation of the Lile design, with a far stronger point and a better balance for chopping.
Gaston
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The Sly II, which is basically the same as the First Blood, is not rear heavy at all. It balances perfectly at the guard.
Superior interpretation? That depends on what you're looking for in a knife. The Lile wasn't designed or intended to be used for chopping. It was designed to also be a combat/fighting knife, hence the neutral balance and fine point.
Whether it balances at the guard, or one inch in front of it, makes absolutely no difference to its useability as a fighter...
The Lile is a 9" blade knife, and the sawback is a serious compromise against using it as a fighter...: In theory it should emphasize chopping performance... Unless the "clip barbs/small prey-catching" feature is seen as so important as to be worth compromising it's chopping function (which, if that worked, is in line with its "Survival" function)...
As I said before, guard balance means the chopping impact's center of deceleration is basically within your hand... This means your hand's flesh is driving steel into wood... This is a long, long way from having a knife that balances 1" in front of the guard, like the Lile-style Wall does... While 1" means little to nothing for all other knife tasks, it is a huge difference to how confortable a knife is while it chops wood. How big a difference?
You might think that removing the buttcap on a knife has no impact on its wood chopping performance: Same knife, roughly the same weight right? You might even consider that, without the buttcap, the knife is lighter, therefore with the buttcap on it chops better, since the overall impact weight, hand/arm included, is higher... Yes the force of impact is slightly higher... But it is not a consideration of raw physics, it is a consideration of ergonomics: By displacing the knife's center of mass in front of your hand, just by removing the buttcap, you instantly increased the chopping confort on your hand noticeably, even if your knife is now lighter...
I know some of you will probably contest this, but remove a heavy steel buttcap on a hollow handle, and, if the grip is not compromised, you will now get a fair bit more chopping work done with less effort and pain on your hand... You just tranferred the knife's CG, and thus much of the pain of deceleration, into nerveless steel... In some HH knives the difference will be on the small side, because one of the downsides of doing this is that the grip is now shorter and less secure (especially for swinging while wrapping the fingers around the butt)... Maybe the Buckmaster would be a good choice for that experiment... The problem remains you would still lose a lot of grip surface, and so what's left of the handle is shorter and more precarious (dont try this on a Model 18!): This precarity of grip could nullify the weight distribution advantage, which is why you really want the knife to be blade-heavy from the start, with the buttcap on...
I used not to like the idea of aluminium handles and buttcaps on hollow handles, but now that I have seen the difference it can do, I'm sold...
Since the primary task of a large 9" Survival Knife is chopping, having it balance at the guard is an issue, if better can be done at no loss...
Gaston
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Well when you are looking at the knife primarily as a chopper yes blade heavy is good. As a fighter its bad, the forward weight gives you too much mass too far out to keep it quick and it has to be quick in the hand. I personally prefer a blade between 6 and 7.5 inches for a fighter and weighted at the guard or just behind it. For a survival do everything knife a neutral balance is easier to do fine tasks with at least for me. Everyone has a different preference. The knives of any make with the large saw backs, like the Lile, Martin, Wall all would suck as fighters those saw backs hang up like the devil in flesh with a straight penetrating stab where a smooth back or even one of the rasp types that Martin makes won't.
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Perhaps in your theory, but not Lile's. I'm not saying the First Blood knife is an ideal fighter, but clearly, Lile had combat in mind more than chopping power on this particular knife. Here it is in his own words. He doesn't mention chopping, so I guess it wasn't as important when the knife was being developed.
First Blood Knife History
Thanks Dave. You saved me some time. :thumbup:
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I agree the sawback is a big issue: Wait until you see what I'm getting soon though...
For a pure fighter, I would put in the following proposition: You want the longest blade, with the straightest edge, for the least weight to carry, and one of the most overlooked advantages of daggers, in my experience, is that there is no lighter blade design, no grind that removes more weight in the blade, than the dagger: My Junglee Waterloo is 6.8 ounces for a 6.9 inch blade: No other 3/16" stock design that is that strong will give more blade length in inches than weight in ounces...: That's unbeatable for upside-down shoulder carry... A belly-less, or shallow belly edge, is very important too, because defending is maximum extended arm reach mostly (offensive stabbing is much shorter range than tip slicing, since you have to extend the arm to drive the tip: Elbow reach at best...), and bellied edges push flesh, they don't grab it, so a straight edge is also a better tip slicer, since it is mid-way to a hook in shape... Not well understood is that many daggers are thus much better tip slicers, from perpendicular to skin, than skinners, for that reason...
I have just tested the sawbacks on 3 of my knives on a 3" branch: Randall Model 18, TOPS Hawke Hellion, and my new Wall... I was prompted to do this when I noticed the Wall sawback had only a single flat surface for the top of its saw, so that the individual teeths were not raised at the back individually, which raised big warning flag in my mind... Uh oh...
On a 3" diameter maple branch, the Randall saw is good up to only 1/8", but quite aggressive in getting there. Unfortunately, it produces dust so fine it instantly blows away in the wind: It is therefore totally useless even for wood dust making, because the wood dust is typically way too fine to be gathered in any quantity... Avoid this feature on a Randall.
On the same branch, the TOPS Hellion saw exhibited very good performance up to a depth of slightly over 1/2": Four times the Randall... The wood "dust" is much heavier and doesn't blow away in the wind, making it very useable for firemaking... This performance allowed going all the way around the branch, creating a weak spot down to 2" in diameter, and then breaking it with little effort: So up to 3" harvesting in a few seconds, with no noise, no edge wear and little effort: This saw design in my opinion fully justifies its existence, even though it probably is well below the Neeley sawback in performance...
If the Hellion was to be used defensively, I imagine it would be used more in a hacking motion, where its sawback would present no problem...
The Wall Lile-style sawback... Oh my God...: Entirely because of the lack of "rear rise" to each tooth (be assured all the Lile knives have this rise), it cannot even strip the thin bark off the branch... Strangely enough, it does tear quite a bit at the sheath's edge, and slows down a draw considerably, which my Neeley SA9 sawback doesn't do...
Total absolute crap: This will be a beat user for sure... Try very hard to get this knife without the sawback (I might contact him to ask), as this is worst than just a marginal feature: It is truly unacceptable.
Gaston
For a pure fighter, I would put in the following proposition: You want the longest blade, with the straightest edge, for the least weight to carry, and one of the most overlooked advantages of daggers, in my experience, is that there is no lighter blade design, no grind that removes more weight in the blade, than the dagger: My Junglee Waterloo is 6.8 ounces for a 6.9 inch blade: No other 3/16" stock design that is that strong will give more blade length in inches than weight in ounces...: That's unbeatable for upside-down shoulder carry... A belly-less, or shallow belly edge, is very important too, because defending is maximum extended arm reach mostly (offensive stabbing is much shorter range than tip slicing, since you have to extend the arm to drive the tip: Elbow reach at best...), and bellied edges push flesh, they don't grab it, so a straight edge is also a better tip slicer, since it is mid-way to a hook in shape... Not well understood is that many daggers are thus much better tip slicers, from perpendicular to skin, than skinners, for that reason...
I have just tested the sawbacks on 3 of my knives on a 3" branch: Randall Model 18, TOPS Hawke Hellion, and my new Wall... I was prompted to do this when I noticed the Wall sawback had only a single flat surface for the top of its saw, so that the individual teeths were not raised at the back individually, which raised big warning flag in my mind... Uh oh...
On a 3" diameter maple branch, the Randall saw is good up to only 1/8", but quite aggressive in getting there. Unfortunately, it produces dust so fine it instantly blows away in the wind: It is therefore totally useless even for wood dust making, because the wood dust is typically way too fine to be gathered in any quantity... Avoid this feature on a Randall.
On the same branch, the TOPS Hellion saw exhibited very good performance up to a depth of slightly over 1/2": Four times the Randall... The wood "dust" is much heavier and doesn't blow away in the wind, making it very useable for firemaking... This performance allowed going all the way around the branch, creating a weak spot down to 2" in diameter, and then breaking it with little effort: So up to 3" harvesting in a few seconds, with no noise, no edge wear and little effort: This saw design in my opinion fully justifies its existence, even though it probably is well below the Neeley sawback in performance...
If the Hellion was to be used defensively, I imagine it would be used more in a hacking motion, where its sawback would present no problem...
The Wall Lile-style sawback... Oh my God...: Entirely because of the lack of "rear rise" to each tooth (be assured all the Lile knives have this rise), it cannot even strip the thin bark off the branch... Strangely enough, it does tear quite a bit at the sheath's edge, and slows down a draw considerably, which my Neeley SA9 sawback doesn't do...
Total absolute crap: This will be a beat user for sure... Try very hard to get this knife without the sawback (I might contact him to ask), as this is worst than just a marginal feature: It is truly unacceptable.
Gaston
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Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,041
Hey Gaston,
We all appreciate your definitive reviews of the Universe, as only you can deliver. We also know that no one has any valid knowledge other than you, and it has truly been a pleasure having you grace this thread with your knifemaking and using mastery. But it might be nice, and greatly appreciated, if you would show a little more respect for the man's hard work and great value of a knife that you received and not refer to it in the pejorative fashion that you have.
If a feature doesn't work as well as it could, or could use some improvement, that's great. We all love improvement, and plenty of makers would appreciate respectful feedback. But writing the way you do about this stuff on a worldwide internet forum lacks respect, in my opinion. I don't speak for any other maker, but I don't think most of us want to be revered as infallible. I certainly don't. But that doesn't mean you have to be disparaging about it. Whether that's what you intended or not, it certainly comes across that way to me. I'm extremely grateful you aren't interested in my knives, because I don't want to have to deal with this type of thing from "experts" such as yourself.
Very respectfully,
Sam Wilson :thumbup:
We all appreciate your definitive reviews of the Universe, as only you can deliver. We also know that no one has any valid knowledge other than you, and it has truly been a pleasure having you grace this thread with your knifemaking and using mastery. But it might be nice, and greatly appreciated, if you would show a little more respect for the man's hard work and great value of a knife that you received and not refer to it in the pejorative fashion that you have.
If a feature doesn't work as well as it could, or could use some improvement, that's great. We all love improvement, and plenty of makers would appreciate respectful feedback. But writing the way you do about this stuff on a worldwide internet forum lacks respect, in my opinion. I don't speak for any other maker, but I don't think most of us want to be revered as infallible. I certainly don't. But that doesn't mean you have to be disparaging about it. Whether that's what you intended or not, it certainly comes across that way to me. I'm extremely grateful you aren't interested in my knives, because I don't want to have to deal with this type of thing from "experts" such as yourself.
Very respectfully,
Sam Wilson :thumbup:
Just saw a Wall knife on a rather famous auction site for a buy-it-now price of $299.95. Nice deal for a nice knife. The interesting difference between my Wall and the one up for auction is the handle is threaded on the outside rather than the inside on the auction one. Would give it a bit more space inside the handle.
Looks nice.
Looks nice.
Sam, I pointed out I was very happy with the rest of the knife, and his workmanship. I even called it a "superior interpretation of the Lile design"... But he didn't raise the rear of each sawtooth, and as a knifemaker of sawback knives he should have known better... The entire sawback feature is completely useless: It is not nice to have large features on a knife that turn out to be purely decorative, when they are obviously presented as a working feature: It is not that the saw works poorly, it does not work at all, yet each teeth is split in the middle, suggesting this is not a decorative feature...
Mind you, I should have looked closer at the pictures, and I could then have seen for myself that they don't rise much, but you have to have the knife in your hand to really see that the teeth tops are all on the exact same same plane, which completely destroys their usefulness... I just assumed that the feature was intended to be functional... The knife is not presented as a decorative piece, and is otherwise very functional.
Get a no teeth version and I won't quibble with the knife's quality... And I don't owe Greg Wall an easy review, since he did get my money... I don't feel robbed anyway, if that makes you feel better: The knife is dead straight and symmetrical, and that is a lot better than the Randall Model 18 I got...
Gaston