THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

For a pure fighter, I would put in the following proposition: You want the longest blade, with the straightest edge, for the least weight to carry, and one of the most overlooked advantages of daggers, in my experience, is that there is no lighter blade design, no grind that removes more weight in the blade, than the dagger:

Do you have much experience in knife fighting?
I have more than I would like, and I am certain that my choices and preferences do not match yours.

A belly-less, or shallow belly edge, is very important too, because defending is maximum extended arm reach mostly (offensive stabbing is much shorter range than tip slicing, since you have to extend the arm to drive the tip: Elbow reach at best...), and bellied edges push flesh, they don't grab it, so a straight edge is also a better tip slicer, since it is mid-way to a hook in shape... Not well understood is that many daggers are thus much better tip slicers, from perpendicular to skin, than skinners, for that reason...

Again, I'm not sure of your background, but my experience does not match these observations. Not to mention many generations of skilled kukri and filipino knife fighters, who do pretty well with a curved blade.

Total absolute crap: This will be a beat user for sure

Let me know if you would like to sell it.
 
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Do you have much experience in knife fighting?
I have more than I would like, and I am certain that my choices and preferences do not match yours.



Again, I'm not sure of your background, but my experience does not match these observations. Not to mention many generations of skilled kukri and filipino knife fighters, who do pretty well with a curved blade.

:) Just how often do these experienced knife fighters lug around a concealed Kurkri?... I know the Al Mar Warrior was designed by serious "martial artists", but to me it simply curves the wrong way... I have to wonder just how much training, or how many knife fights ever take place, when the reach of stabbing is never mentionned as a big surprise when you actually attempt it... What apparently happens is you instinctively reach with your other hand to hold back "in range", and then, statistically, more often than not, you injure your own other hand... This is known to cops all over, who always check stabbing suspects for self-injured hands... How come knife-fighting masters don't ever emphasize this, or the incredibly short range of stabbing right off the bat? I'll let you guess...

Gaston
 
:) but to me it simply curves the wrong way... This is known to cops all over, who always check stabbing suspects for self-injured hands... How come knife-fighting masters don't ever emphasize this, or the incredibly short range of stabbing right off the bat? I'll let you guess...

And you are a knife fighting trainer? Or perhaps law enforcement or military trained in knife fighting? I'm just trying to understand the basis for your pontification.

It's not krav maga, I recognize that. It's not Emerson, that's not what they teach. It's not filipino...

But again, let me know if you want to flip that horrible beater of a knife.
 
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Sam, I pointed out I was very happy with the rest of the knife, and his workmanship. I even called it a "superior interpretation of the Lile design"... But he didn't raise the rear of each sawtooth, and as a knifemaker of sawback knives he should have known better... The entire sawback feature is completely useless: It is not nice to have large features on a knife that turn out to be purely decorative, when they are obviously presented as a working feature: It is not that the saw works poorly, it does not work at all, yet each teeth is split in the middle, suggesting this is not a decorative feature...

Mind you, I should have looked closer at the pictures, and I could then have seen for myself that they don't rise much, but you have to have the knife in your hand to really see that the teeth tops are all on the exact same same plane, which completely destroys their usefulness... I just assumed that the feature was intended to be functional... The knife is not presented as a decorative piece, and is otherwise very functional.

Get a no teeth version and I won't quibble with the knife's quality... And I don't owe Greg Wall an easy review, since he did get my money... I don't feel robbed anyway, if that makes you feel better: The knife is dead straight and symmetrical, and that is a lot better than the Randall Model 18 I got...

Gaston

Gaston,

Here's the thing: I don't have an issue with you being critical of his knife or workmanship. Nor do I care if you don't like a feature or function of his knives. That's your business, and you don't have to answer to me at all, anyway. Mr. Wall's knife is his business, and I don't speak for him. However, he apparently derives at least some of his income from making and selling knives. When you start saying things about his work like "absolute crap," I think that's way out of line. You may be affecting his livelihood, and/or ability to earn income from the knives he makes.

No one is saying to sweep anything under the rug, or pretend you don't have an issue with the knife. But calling it crap on a worldwide forum is uncalled for, in my opinion. Why not contact him FIRST and work it out. Or at least be matter of fact in how you describe it. Nobody's perfect, and that includes the knives we make. But talking about it the way you are is kind of ridiculous and disrespectful, and is a great way to destroy any credibility you have (or don't have.)

And no one said you owe him an "easy review," but if you're going to do a review on it, is that the kind of language you see in a professional review? You obviously have an education of some sort. Why not use some of the descriptive language you've employed with such prolificacy up till now?

Respectfully,
Sam Wilson :thumbup:
 
On a 3" diameter maple branch, the Randall saw is good up to only 1/8", but quite aggressive in getting there. Unfortunately, it produces dust so fine it instantly blows away in the wind: It is therefore totally useless even for wood dust making, because the wood dust is typically way too fine to be gathered in any quantity... Avoid this feature on a Randall.

The Randall saw is NOT designed for wood! Why test or compare it? :confused:


The Wall Lile-style sawback... Oh my God...: Entirely because of the lack of "rear rise" to each tooth (be assured all the Lile knives have this rise), it cannot even strip the thin bark off the branch...Total absolute crap: This will be a beat user for sure... Try very hard to get this knife without the sawback (I might contact him to ask), as this is worst than just a marginal feature: It is truly unacceptable.

he didn't raise the rear of each sawtooth, and as a knifemaker of sawback knives he should have known better... The entire sawback feature is completely useless: It is not nice to have large features on a knife that turn out to be purely decorative, when they are obviously presented as a working feature: It is not that the saw works poorly, it does not work at all...

Yet, the Wall is a "superior interpretation of the Lile design". :rolleyes:
 
Hello. I've never posted on this part of the forum before, but after a comment from Sam Wilson over on 'Custom & Handmade', I thought I'd post a few pictures up.
Now...before I do, let me warn you that this doesn't fit into the thread title whatsoever. As Sam said though, it is in the spirit of the thread.
So...here we go.
My own mismatch of Lile's First Blood and Mission knives.
Here's where it doesn't fit though. This knife has a full, narrow tang with a solid Tufnol handle!
Hope you like it.
Great thread by the way...as a long time admirer of the Lile knives since I was about 10 years old, I've been looking at this for a long while.
Great stuff.






Thanks for looking.

Ian.
 
Ian, I think it looks great. You did an excellent job on the sawteeth, and I agree with Dave, the guard is a really nice size. Also, excellent job on the grind on the clip. That isn't easy to do, and you did quite nice on the leather, as well. Great blend of the two knives. If you've got more, please post them up.

Sam :thumbup:
 
When you start saying things about his work like "absolute crap," I think that's way out of line. You may be affecting his livelihood, and/or ability to earn income from the knives he makes.

No one is saying to sweep anything under the rug, or pretend you don't have an issue with the knife. But calling it crap on a worldwide forum is uncalled for, in my opinion. Why not contact him FIRST and work it out.

And no one said you owe him an "easy review," but if you're going to do a review on it, is that the kind of language you see in a professional review?

I have to say I agree with you that if making subjective comments I should at least make it real clear as to what the comment is limited to: By saying "total absolute crap" I meant it only regarding the saw's functionality, which is zero, and deceptively so I might add... But by saying "total", and then saying the knife will be a "beater", I have to admit I got carried away by my disapointment... I'll even appologize to Wall for having been careless in not making clear the distinction (I did praise his knife otherwise)... It is just that I cannot understand how he never tested, or figured out, that having the saw's top on a single plane would turn it into a decorative feature, this on a knife not advertised as intended for decoration... That being said, it is the thinnest edged hollow handle I have besides the Randall (and reworked Boker Apparo), and of the 3 I would say it is the better knife...

I have since tested this knife in the field, and generally it came out well against the Randall Model 18, although I noticed a lot of strange unexpected results and behaviour that are both specific to the design, but also apply to all hollow handle knives generally. Because I had chopped in a different way before, I never noticed these issues to the extent I did this time.

Unfortunately I still cannot load up the "in action" photos, as the "F" inlet still does not appear in my view box, for some reason. So I'll just try to be brief using generic photos... I will post pictures when the computer problem is finally fixed...

Chopping performance: 9" Wall, 1/4" stock, versus 7.4", 3/16" thick Randall Model 18 (with ground down guard, so lighter than stock): Incredibly, about the same(!!), despite the Model 18 balancing just behind the guard, which I consider very poor balance (versus 1" in front of the guard on the Wall, which I consider incredibly good chopping balance for a hollow handle, this due to the aluminium and small diameter). This is quite a surprise to me, especially since the knives are similar in edge thickness, and the Randall is much thinner in stock than the Wall...

My theory is as follows: The Wall originally sported a fairly broadly radiused convex edge (though similarly thin to the Randall overall): By converting it to a V-edge, I could not go all the way up the side to elliminate completely the radius of the convexing (this would have required scratching up the side into a huge 1/8" bevel, which would not only have looked bad, but would also have been enormously time-consuming, as it was on the Neeley SA9) , so that above the V-edge bevel the blade still immediately "thickens" in a convex curve: I much improved the original sharpness, but this "thickening" action just behind the edge is a sharp contrast to the slight hollow on the Randall's cross-section: The V-edges are both similar in thickness, but where the Wall swells rapidly fatter after the edge bevel, the Randall basically goes straight up into sides that do not widen at all... This alone expains the mismatched smaller blade equalled the much larger blade: When chopping, I could "feel" the remaining convexing inhibited the Wall's "bite". It still performed decently, though I would guess the heavier-feeling Chris Reeves Jereboam would out-chop it by about 20-30% (it is being refinished in a green Cerakoating, so I didn't have it available).

Despite this surprising result, the Randall came out very badly in handle confort: I had used for wrapping a very tough-surfaced, tightly woven 350 lbs rope (harder-surfaced than regular 440), and this still made the handle too large in diameter, but it also was way too aggressive for chopping: The issue is not easily fixable in my opinion, because chopping makes you want to grip rearward, and the blister may have been caused by the oversized buttcap knurling itself, not just the rope... The Wall's very thin diameter handle was superbly confortable in comparison. The only downside of its excellent handle is the wrapping cord moved around a little, revealing a slight gap in the rope: No real adverse effect...

The most interesting thing I found in both knives is the serious tendency to roll "into" the wood grain when chopping low to the ground. It was slightly worse on the Wall than on the Randall, despite the much better grip, but very bad on both compared to the Chris Reeves. The convexing of the Wall edge may have played a role, but what was interesting to me was that it was so much more severe and less controllable than when doing shoulder-height chopping with the Chris Reeves Jereboam. This below illustrates what I think was the two-pronged difference: 1-The handle-edge relationship, 2-Chopping with the blade in a tip-down attitude:

DSC01742_zpssv7njakc.jpg


Now compare the above edge-handle/handle center relationship to that of the Randall below: The greater height means the Randall is more "tipsy" at the moment its blade hits the wood to chop, which means the slightest off-square centering will have a greater chance of leaning the blade and suddenly making it "follow the grain" paralell to the wood grain, rather than cutting perpendicular to it:

DSC01786_zpsls3akqz6.jpg


Now here you can see how the Wall's edge-down design might also have caused trouble:

125533_zpssnzlnfy5.jpg


But the rolling effect was so marked and dangerous this time (it litterally whipped both blades sideways with great violence, very near my leg and foot) compared to the comparatively mild effect on the Chris Reeves Jereboam (still a bit scary the first time around), that I felt sure such design differences could not have been the whole story: Another difference with my older testing was that the Chris Reeves was used to trim limbs at shoulder height, which made the blade hit point up, while this time I tested the Wall and Randall on limbs resting close to the ground, in a point-down attitude: I think this might have had this effect:

_57_zpse7w6afwm.jpg


In any case I think it definitely is an issue worth keeping an eye out for...

And yes I am keeping the Wall...: Who knows, if he fixes the teeths, then mine will become a collector's item...

As to determine if it is still an improvement over the Lile design, the weight-forward balance is definitely better, and the thinner diameter handle is also superior in my view, even for big hands. The lower edge position on the Wall does prove to not combine very well with a round handle... The Liles however have another problem which the Wall avoids completely: Way too thin point geometry that is just far beyond what it should have been: When I found this out, I lost forever my interest in the Liles. Do note however that the Andy Wood copies appear to have a noticeably sturdier point design: This is a pre-dot Lile Mission, but I have confirmed that current Neeley production First Bloods are similar in point thinness:

$_57.JPG


Gaston
 
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Thanks for your comments. :thumbup:
The steel is 01. Not the ideal choice for this sort of blade admittedly, but it's what I normally use.
I made this for myself for my own amusement, so it doesn't matter. I've had my fun with it.
Sam, this is my first attempt at a Lile style, but there's a few of my others here if you're interested.....http://http://s524.photobucket.com/user/irbailey/library/?sort=3&page=1

Cheers,

Ian.

Ian,

I am having trouble with the link. It doesn't seem to work for me. Maybe I did it wrong. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Thank you,
Sam
 
Gaston,

No need to quote it, but in regard to your post above, thank you. Obviously we have different opinions on things, but I most definitely respect what you just said. Well done.

Sam :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
Chopping performance...despite the Model 18 balancing just behind the guard, which I consider very poor balance...

The 18's balance is perfect for its intend purpose. It wasn't designed for chopping. It is a fighting/survival knife, hence its name "Attack-Survival".


The Liles however have another problem which the Wall avoids completely: Way too thin point geometry that is just far beyond what it should have been..

The point geometry is not too thin for the First Blood knife's intended purpose - to also be used as a combat knife. Too bad Mr. Lile isn't alive to defend his design.
 
The 18's balance is perfect for its intend purpose. It wasn't designed for chopping. It is a fighting/survival knife, hence its name "Attack-Survival".

Again, I can't see that the balance has a big effect on a knife's fighting ability: It is after all a 12 ounce item...: Medieval broadswords routinely went up to 60 ounces, sometimes 90, and were still fast enough to be used as weapons... I actually think the balance point on a knife is completely irrelevant to its use as a weapon (unless it is a pure hacking weapon, like a machete), but for some reason few seem to agree...

The interesting effect I noted was that the "blade-light" rear balance of the Model 18 did not affect its ultimate chopping performance (much to my surprise), since it DID match a much bigger 9" knife that IS blade-heavy...: This is deceptive and unexpected, and shows that the balance point is not an ultimate chopping performance issue as such , but instead an ergonomic and user endurance issue...: The Model 18 performed the same, but was much, much harder on the hand, and not just because of the "hard" wrapping cord...: The impact on the hand felt much greater even though the performance was the same... This is the "deceleration in the flesh" vs "deceleration in the steel" effect I described...


The point geometry is not too thin for the First Blood knife's intended purpose - to also be used as a combat knife. Too bad Mr. Lile isn't alive to defend his design.

A very thin point that is laterally fragile (and further compromised by the clip's "barbs") is not a point primarily intended for combat against big bones... To my mind the "thin point" design makes perfect sense if the clip's "barbs" are to be used, and since they are some way back on the clip, and you need to a really thin point to penetrate so deeply into a fish so that at least the first barb begins to "hang on" (on a small fish the likelyhood of that appears low in any case)... This idea of "barbs" makes perfect sense with the "hollow handle on a spear" concept, with the guard holes present to lash together a spear...

However, to be really useful, the clip's "barbs" should have been closer to the tip, and maybe smaller. As it is, the tip would have to penetrate into a fish over 2.5" before the first barb can even begin to hold on to flesh...: One to 1.5 inches would have been more realistic... As such, what they are is an aesthetic compromise so that they "flow" better with the wood-cutting teeth... As cricketdave pointed out, they can "scrape out" the saw cut from wood splinters as well, but that is not enough for me to justify them being present in the clip...

Even with the "barbs" usefulness fully accepted, the Lile points did not have to be so thin: Andy Wood's interpretation of the design is as close as he could possibly make it, and, even with accuracy foremost in his mind, he could not help making the point stronger...: Compare the Andy Wood's point geometry below to the Lile "Mission" below it, and you can see the design can be respected without making the point so thin:

P1010152.jpg


$_57.JPG


In my opinion the Andy Wood version is the one to get for the most "functional" representation of the design (I would even guess that they are more precisely made)... The current Neeley production are thinner pointed, more like the originals in that respect, but I could only judge that by video, so I could be wrong on that...

Gaston
 
My apologies if this has been posted on here already, but this is apparently what Jimmy Lile said about the original design.../http://www.rambo-knife.com/index.php?main_page=history
To my way of thinking, the Lile knives were designed more as survival knives suitable for film rather than film knives suitable for survival.
I've read somewhere (can't remember where exactly) that the Mission knife was made larger and with the two tone finish so that it had a 'greater screen presence'. To me, that says a lot.
To be honest, I find arguing/worrying about the angle of teeth/thickness of clip/position of grind/number of teeth/practicalities of saw/type of compass/etc, etc, rather sad.
Enjoy this style of knife for what it is...an iconic design.

Ian.
 
My apologies if this has been posted on here already, but this is apparently what Jimmy Lile said about the original design...
To my way of thinking, the Lile knives were designed more as survival knives suitable for film rather than film knives suitable for survival.
I've read somewhere (can't remember where exactly) that the Mission knife was made larger and with the two tone finish so that it had a 'greater screen presence'. To me, that says a lot.
To be honest, I find arguing/worrying about the angle of teeth/thickness of clip/position of grind/number of teeth/practicalities of saw/type of compass/etc, etc, rather sad.
Enjoy this style of knife for what it is...an iconic design.

Ian.

Well... This is what he says in your link (which doesn't work, but I know the site):

Quote: Jimmy Lile:

The Purpose:

It was not my intent to create just another attractive movie prop, but rather to make one basic tool to do a variety of jobs. So i had to imagine what i would need if i were in an isolated survival situation and could have only one tool to get by with, and i reasoned that it should be a multi purpose knife that would:

Have a long cutting edge for cutting shelter materials, firewood and cutting up what i might have to eat.
Have a compass in order to hold a true bearing for escape.
Have a hollow handle to hold necessities and into which a pole could be fitted to make a spear or gig, as well as being waterproof when capped.
Have screwdrivers for working on any gear i had.
Have some nylon line for fishing or snares.
Have a flat butt for pounding.
Have a real saw on the back for cutting small poles for fishing and shelter and making a spear as well as cutting out of the canopy or through the side of a downed aircraft.
And last but not least, it must be a dependable offensive or defensive weapon, as the situation might dictate.
The First Blood combat/survival knife incorporates all these features to their fullest."

So my question to you is: Did you even read your own link?

Jimmy Lile made it crystal clear to Stallone he would never build a non-funtional movie prop... (Even for the Rambo II "Mission" knife, the contrasting blade finish in no way impeded its function...) Stallone's only specific design input that I know about -for the First Blood knife- is he asked for the similar bead blasted finish to go diagonally into the clip area (about which I think he was absolutely right: I think it looks way better that way)

The First Blood was made in D-2, which is a hard, expensive steel to work with... Do you think that this was done for the camera? Probably I would like the Andy Wood's point grind taper better (assuming it really is that different)... But it is a deal breaker for me only because other similar designs are around... And if the clip barbs are probably too far back, to flow a little better with the design, so be it... But to say he did anything less than the best he could, from a functional point of view, is rather dismissive of his efforts and integrity... If you knew anything about Jimmy Lile, you would know he did not like being around movie people, and was never interested in mingling with them... He even said Gil Hibben did him a big favour when he took over Rambo's movie knives... I don't think that was aimed at Stallone, but at the movie industry in general...

You may not be aware of this, but while Liles and other similar big sawback knives were always rare in military service, given the constraints on what lower ranking soldiers can carry, there was quite a few officers that chose to carry them and used them heavily... I've seen some of them on Ebay, with the military service number of the owner engraved on them... The Randall Model 18 was not that uncommon in Viet Nam... The reason they are so rare in military service nowadays is that sawteeths are seen as not "Media PC" by the hierarchy, not because they are useless... On the contrary, huge 19th Century German bayonets for decades sported them, until they were used as propaganda against them by the opposite side in WWI...

So it's sad that there is a discussion about how they perform, am I getting this right?

Gaston
 
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