THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

[Gaston444]

That's a beautiful knife, congratulations.

Sam :thumbup:

Thanks Sam,

Even if they would be crazy enough for metal to metal hammering, the upper corners of the sawteeth might deform and this could absorp some energy for at least a few early blows (then the corners would be beaten down rounded, and would no more absorb the energy...: They might then actually focus it).

I agree metal to metal would eventually break a sawback, and maybe even sooner than an un-notched blade, but you see wood sticks actually break square angle 5/16" stick tangs on Trailmasters, and sometimes accross the blade on solid blades with no notches, and I don't see how that could happen on a sawback with a wood sticks as long as you keep hitting the Saw notches directly. But that remains unproven... That being said, they do chew up the baton, a serious disadvantage, since a baton is fairly laborious to find and make in the woods (in my experience), but the chewing does show some of the energy is absorbed and re-directed away from the blade...

Gaston

 

[TAH]

Gaston,

Great review and information on your chopping and sawing tests. That has certainly got to be a first, here on Blade Forums, to see some of these iconic knives actually being used for their intended purpose. I'll bet Jimmy Lile is smiling right now.

Congrats on the Sly II. Another fine HH knife...and you don't have to worry about that quality Marbles compass forming a bubble. :thumbup:

 

[TAH]

Today someone posted another all-black Lile "Mission" on Ebay, identical to mine, and it is said to be among the first 25 made (with some supporting papers): Asking price is $8000, for a knife and sheath in way rougher shape than mine were... I'm thinking I got a great deal at $1770...

Do the gray finish Lile Missions usually go for less? There is an unused one on A.G. Russell's Cutting Edge for $1640. Seems like a pretty good deal.

Cutting Edge

 

[Gaston444]

He relented a little and now it is 6500... Not for me...

I think the black painted ones are a lot rarer, as until I saw mine I had never seen one... But finish quality-wise, do pick a gray one... The black paint is awful for some reason: On the good side, with Cerakoating the knife can be used, show wear, and yet the steel remains almost completely untouched...

That is an interesting store: A PDF catalog of one-time items? How does this work? Quite frankly I think I would have been happier with the gray one If I had known about it, as having mine Cerakoated to black is kind of a pain, and now puts me well over that price... Is there a way to see the condition of the sheath?

My black "Mission" sheath was quite good. A weird thing with black dyed sheaths is they seem way more waterproof than beige ones...: Even among Randalls, the brown sheaths are clearly more moisture-absorbent than the nearly waterproof black ones: In other makes the disparity is even larger: I have a brown Lile sheath which, while very well made, is a veritable "sponge" compared to Lile's black sheaths... I am now in the process of treating my brown sheaths as otherwise they are like sponges...

Gaston

 

[TAH]

That is an interesting store: A PDF catalog of one-time items? How does this work? Quite frankly I think I would have been happier with the gray one If I had known about it, as having mine Cerakoated to black is kind of a pain, and now puts me well over that price... Is there a way to see the condition of the sheath?

A.G. Russell's Cutting Edge has been around since the late 80s. It started out as a B&W mail catalog. Now it is comes out monthly in catalog and PDF form. All knives are pre-owned and sold on consignment. Some used, some new. They offer a "no questions asked" 14 day return policy with no restocking fee. If you are interested in the gray Lile, give them a call and they will probably email you a photo of the sheath. They are very easy to work with. :thumbup:

A weird thing with black dyed sheaths is they seem way more waterproof than beige ones...

Most saddle tan sheaths, like Johnson sheaths that were used by Randall and Lile, are oil treated. The black ones, of course, are dyed, which probably gives them a little more protection from moisture because they require a top sealant so the black dye doesn't rub off.

 

[Gaston444]

Yes: For anyone interested in actual survival use, the difference is quite shocking when you see both a black sheath and the brown sheath get wet...: The Lile brown sheath I had goes dark and grows instantly softer, actually bowing into a curve without a knife in it(!)... While the Lile black sheath is utterly impervious, almost like plastic...

The difference is less pronounced with Randall sheaths, but it is still large, and once having been wet the brown sheath never quite looks quite pristine again...

I did manage to solve this issue to my satisfaction: I treated two of my brown sheaths with a car seat "revitalizer", with the idea of filling the pores, but that seemed to make little difference to the water absorption...

Then I went for a matte "Modelmaster" varnish, a spray enamel-base varnish whose behaviour I was familiar with, as it is nicely flat: This did solve the problem: No darkening of the surface when wet! On one of the two sheaths I treated however it did "fisheyes": Little dimples that are annoying to look at: I think I went for too heavy a coat on that one...: Thin Mists are the way to go, as I accidently went heavier, and the fisheyes appeared... Fortunately it was on the one sheath I needed less... Fisheyes are caused by oil reacting with the enamel, so it helps to avoid any really thin oils beforehand, like contamination with WD-40 from an oiled carbon blade...

Gaston

 

[TAH]

Yes: For anyone interested in actual survival use, the difference is quite shocking when you see both a black sheath and the brown sheath get wet...: The Lile brown sheath I had goes dark and grows instantly softer, actually bowing into a curve without a knife in it(!)... While the Lile black sheath is utterly impervious, almost like plastic...

The difference is less pronounced with Randall sheaths, but it is still large, and once having been wet the brown sheath never quite looks quite pristine again...

I did manage to solve this issue to my satisfaction: I treated two of my brown sheaths with a car seat "revitalizer", with the idea of filling the pores, but that seemed to make little difference to the water absorption...

Then I went for a matte "Modelmaster" varnish, a spray enamel-base varnish whose behaviour I was familiar with, as it is nicely flat: This did solve the problem: No darkening of the surface when wet! On one of the two sheaths I treated however it did "fisheyes": Little dimples that are annoying to look at: I think I went for too heavy a coat on that one...: Thin Mists are the way to go, as I accidently went heavier, and the fisheyes appeared... Fortunately it was on the one sheath I needed less... Fisheyes are caused by oil reacting with the enamel, so it helps to avoid any really thin oils beforehand, like contamination with WD-40 from an oiled carbon blade...

Gaston

Have you ever tried Sno-Seal?

 

[Gaston444]

I think I tried something similar in the past, but it might have had a slightly different name: Snow-Wax maybe... : A thick withish paste, almost like wax. It did seems to work, but being like wax it was kind of laborious to apply and then polish off... It left residues that took a long while to elliminate in the corners.

On a completley unrelated matter, I thought this was far too good not to post here: It is from somewhere on Bladesforums...: I'm happy that didn't come through (sorry to those who already knew this story):

"He tried to stiff Bill Moran for a half dozen of Bill's ST-23 fighters, which was his first choice for the First Blood movie. He visited Bill's shop in Middletown Maryland, (quite a story of his character in itself) and told Bill that he'd like 6 of them to use in the filming of the movie. Bill said fine, and he'd get to work on them immediately. But Bill wanted 50% down to start with, and Stallone told him that he wasn't going to pay Bill, that Bill was going to make them for free for the privilege of having Moran knives in his movie. What Bill told Stallone was not as polite, and Stallone left Bill Moran's shop a disappointed man. He couldn't understand why Moran wasn't falling on his knees to kiss his a$$. Bill Moran never seemed to care that his friend Jimmy Lile got the job. Moran was already backordered the rest of his life.

On the day that Stallone visited Bill Moran's shop, a few of Bill's friends were hanging out there. This was a normal thing, as Bill's shop was sort of a gathering place of like minded folks. A big towncar pulls up outside, and a guy, one of the body guards for Stallone, walks into Bill's shop and tells everyone there that they have to leave, that Mr. Stallone is here to talk to Mr. Moran. Bill took a bit of offense at an unknown person telling his friends to leave, and told the bodyguard that it was his shop, and he, Bill, would say who comes and goes. If Mr. Stallone wanted to come in, that was okay, but if he didn't, that was okay as well. Bodyguard went back to the car and reported this to the passenger in the backseat. Stallone came into the shop, and ignored everyones greeting like a rude a$$, and then propositioned Bill. Things went south from there."

This is Moran's ST-23, it is an 8 inch blade, so it looks deceptively short:

I have to say I am glad things didn't work out with Moran: Even with a hollow handle, this doesn't work at all for me... As to Stallone's behaviour, dear God...

Gaston

 

[sams]

I like it. I ordered one. but only got a nice letter, photos and a small folder price catalog in response.

 

[TAH]

I think I tried something similar in the past, but it might have had a slightly different name: Snow-Wax maybe... : A thick withish paste, almost like wax. It did seems to work, but being like wax it was kind of laborious to apply and then polish off... It left residues that took a long while to elliminate in the corners.

Sno-Seal has been around since at least the 70s under the same name. It isn't waxy at all, but it does contain bees wax. Great stuff, excellent for waterproofing, no residue.

Bill Moran/Sylvester Stallone

Stallone also approached Randall with the same proposal, which was politely declined.

 

[bearcut]

Have you ever tried Sno-Seal?

Yes, Sno-seal has been out since the 70's. It was about the best thing out at the time.

I quit using it by the 90's, too many drawbacks compared to modern waterproofing products.

But, some people still think mink oil is the best thing ever, so I guess it is hard to overcome preconceived notions.

I may be derailing the thread, back to HH knives!

I am liking my Robson X*46, 5" HH.
It has the O-ring buttcap, not the screw on cap. It has never inadvertently come off. In fact, it takes a concerted effort to remove it.

The design is very good. I like it better than the CRK one piece HH's I have had in the past. It is definitely a more modern design. The handle is much better than the CRK's. If anyone ever builds something like this in 3V it would possibly be the ultimate HH.

My Martin MCE2 is working as intended. The sawback is tearing up the sheath a bit more than I had hoped though.

Nice to see all you guys knives, glad some of you have funds for so many!

 

[Gaston444]

The Robson is one we absolutely need to see close-up pictures of in this thread...: I'm not even sure how the buttcap works, as the handle is not round...: Definitely one we need to see... They are quite widely sold, but I have yet to see good pictures from owners...

The enlarged "stepped point" design is brilliant, and should be excellent for a greater chopping mass, while still retaining an acute point... Unfortunately they don't go over 7" -or maybe 7.5"(?)- in blade length, and that is now too short for my taste.

I don't find the Chris Reeves one piece designs dated: The Jereboam is very close to what I would have designed (until chopping with one that is), and the handle is very ergonomic. The basic performance problem is the blade is not broad enough for the blade thickness, and especially the height of its sabre grind, and this is more apparent on the longer knives, because of the chopping power the length gives...: If you make a deep V cut in wood, eventually the angled sides of the wood will hit the sides of the blade before the edge hits... At some point you have to widen the V cut because the edge is too close to the spine, and so the edge doesn't have the "reach" to hit wood before the sides do... If the blade was 1/4" broader vertically, or the sabre grind raised 1/4", which would have been quite possible, the problem would immediately go away: As it is, the knife will sometimes violently "bounce" sideways as you hit the wood with the sides, so you have to widen the hits before going any deeper...

The bouncing phenomenon looks and feels like the usual hollow handle rolling and bouncing sideways with the wood grain, but I realized later it is distinct from that, because in one case it is the wood grain that rolls the knife (which is preventable with care), where in the CR case it is the impact between the secondary grind line and the cut, and the knife feels more like it tries to pull from your hand instead of rolling. Also there is usually not much wood flying around when the CR does that... The CR does perform superbly on 2" branches or less, and will match knives that do much better on thicker stuff...

Gaston

 

[Gaston444]

I just got the Sly II in the mail yesterday.

In case you are interested in one, note it is a very, very different knife from what the Farid portrays the First Blood as being: Blade width at the base of the blade is is 1.55" on the Farid, and 1.45" on the Lile Sly II, so just under 1/8" narrower, which doesn't sound like much, but the First Blood is not a particularly wide-bladed knife to begin with (The Farid may have broadened the blade a tiny smidgen), so remove any significant amount from that and you end up with the SLy II, which really is starting to look like a stiletto masquerading as a survival knife...

The Lile's blade thickness is 0.24", which beats the Farid's 0.23", but the "Mission" is better still at the full 0.25".

The Lile's point grind symmetry is superior to the Farid on the position of the clip grind lines on the side of the blade (almost perfect on the Sly II, way off on the Farid), but the Farid is almost perfect in symmetry looking down from above: I prefer symmetry from above... The "Mission" was for all I could see perfect on both counts, and is thus my favorite knife of the 3...

Despite the Stilleto-like styling in profile, the Sly II's point is noticeably thicker than the Farid from above, the Farid being much thicker than at least one Neeley "Next Generation" First Blood I have seen in detailed photos, and much thicker as well than one Lile "Mission": I considered the Farid quite acceptable (equivalent to a Wood in point thickness), and the very slightly thinner point of my "Mission" is also acceptable, but closer to borderline: This means the Sly II's point is really very strong, something you would not expect...: This is in part related to the poor edge geometry, unfortunately...

Edge bevel thickness on the Sly II is what seems like an acceptable 0.040" at the blade's rear, worsening to 0.050" at the clip: This would not be that bad if the knife came with a "real" edge, but it doesn't: Again just a barely-applied 40° per side (80° inclusive) "micro-bevel", as on the "Mission" (but the "Mission" had a much superior 0.028" edge base, and needs absolutely no re-profile)...

Unlike on a hollow-ground blade, where the sides are paralell to each other going up from the edge for quite some distance, on a flat ground blade, going up the sides -while sharpening to reduce the edge bevel angle- means the edge base gets rapidly into thicker blade stock... The flat ground blade of the Sly II means that by the time you get an acute edge of around 15° per side, the edge base has "climbed" way into the 0.050s and even above that for the forward part of the edge... This effect is worsened by the blade's stilleto-like narrowness, because this means the overall blade profile's V shape thickens faster going up the blade...

The blade will have to be entirely re-profiled. That's OK I'm getting used to this...: I wonder why all these knives are kept in their extremely dull original condition after 30 years..: Surely an excellent sharpening job doesn't ruin the value? As delivered they would make a mess of spreading butter: What fun is there in owning that?

Good points on the Sly II: Sheath fits tightly and is just superb, no need to "tighten" the snap strap with a spacer at all: Flawless. Sly II balance point is a adequate 1/4" into the blade, the Farid 1/4" behind (steel buttcap), and the "Mission" 3/4" into the blade.

The Sly II's dry compass in the pommel has a fine transversal reference line engraved into the glass, and this feature alone makes it the best pommel compass I have seen so far: While not quite equalling the reference offered by a rotating dial, it does provide a steady reference to potentially hit some kind of way point... Even with real dial compasses I was terrible at hitting way points, so without any visual reference the precision is really dicey: While for emergency use it probably doesn't matter, the engraved line does offer something extra...

The best part? the Sly II's buttcap is nearly identical, and fully interchangeable with, both the "Mission" and the RJ Martin Blackbird, so now the Blackbird finally has a nice dry compass more in keeping with its stature... It'll help waiting for the inevitable refurbishing this thing needs... The Farid came out amazing from its own "spa treatment", so I'll post some pics of that later...

Gaston

 

[irbailey]

I think the reason these knives are kept in their original condition is because they're collectors items and as such are worth a lot of money in their original condition.
To some, 're-profiling' the edge and 'treating' the leather with varnish is a bit like buying a Monet and then 'improving' it by getting the crayon set out and brightening up the colours.
Each to their own I suppose...

Ian.

 

[Gaston444]

But they are entirely useless as delivered... If you look at Randalls, they don't seem to lose a lot of value for being correctly sharpened... I'd gladly pay more for a correctly sharpened Lile!

Anyway, another peculiarity of the Sly II I forgot to mention is that the sawteeth tops have almost no forward "dip" (on some teeths it seems none, but on all it is so slight anyway as to be insignificant), so unlike the Lile "Mission", whose saw worked perfectly and easily went 5/8" or more depending on diameter (more like an inch deep on 2" diameter or less), here the Sly II will only go 1/16", or barely bark-stripping territory... The Farid saw worked equally as well as the "Mission"...

There is not much to be done about this, because to have the forward teeth top "dip" executed after assembly on all the teeths, including the back ones closer to the guard, would require cutting the top guard quillion off... Unfortunately, the sheath snap strap uses the top of the guard, so to remove it would make the excellent sheath non-functional...

I don't know what it is about making non-fuctional saws, even though the basics of function should be well-known: This is a short list of expensive top-end sawbacks that I know first hand don't have the teeth top forward "dip", making the teeths purely decorative: Wall First Blood, Lile Sly II, Andrew Clifford Sly II, an early Steve Voorhis SV marked Rambo-style (a later full name marked one has the correct "dip").

I get the feeling a lot of makers don't really believe in the functionality of sawbacks, even as they make them... The case of the Lile Sly II is incomprehensible...

I don't get this, as we all know sawbacks are already starting from behind in functionality, why make things much worse? If you are going to do that, at least offer a no-saw option... Fortunately I now have two or three sawbacks that work, so I do not care too much about those that don't, but it is baffling...

Gaston

 

[caine]

screen capture windows 7

 

[Sam Wilson]

Love the Parrish. :thumbup:

 

[Ausseknifeknut]

So does that mean jimmy lile wasn't paid for his knives used in the film either ?

 

[Sam Wilson]

I think the reason these knives are kept in their original condition is because they're collectors items and as such are worth a lot of money in their original condition.
To some, 're-profiling' the edge and 'treating' the leather with varnish is a bit like buying a Monet and then 'improving' it by getting the crayon set out and brightening up the colours.
Each to their own I suppose...

Ian.

Very good points, Ian.

 

[Gaston444]

So does that mean jimmy lile wasn't paid for his knives used in the film either ?

I was actually wondering about that too...

I can't understand why a multi-millionaire would waste an entire day just because a few thousands had to be coughed up...: It seems almost like he was more interested in a kind of subservience to movie stardom than an actual product...

I also don't understand how Stallone could be the one making the decisions on the knife's design, when the knife's capabilities were an integral part of the entire story: He did not originate the script: It was two other people who had been at it for years trying to get it made from a novel... It's almost like, when he's in it, he takes over...

The entire story revolves around the specific capabilities of the knife: It had to look menacing enough to get him in trouble (that is the only contribution of the sawteeths, unfortunately, but a good one). There is no equivalent to this in movie history: The entire mine escape scene, a huge part of the film, would make little or no sense without the hollow handle and its matches... The prominent arm injury from the fall was sewn up by the handle's kit, making his survival from it somewhat credible... The entire cliff fall, another long protracted scene, leads to the movie's only death, so it is a fundamental turning point... The use of the hollow handle for spear hunting, the trap making, the compass bearings, all this takes a fair amount of screen time: How could the knife's features not be in the original script?

When Pacino was approached to play the role, he insisted the character should be "crazier", which, given how borderline his behaviour already was, sounds pretty stupid: They turned him and his ideas down... Yet when Stallone is in it, he gets free reign to design the knife, so how does it get integrated into the major turning points? It seems at some point the horses have to be in front of the cart for this to work...

Gaston