THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

Sam Wilson said:
Gaston,

I don't know what else to tell you. I agreed to take the knife to help you out. From the very beginning you have argued with everything I have told you, and to my knowledge your whole knowledge base and conclusions are built on sharpening and chopping with a few knives in the woods. That is almost the exact opposite of scientific method. As I mentioned, you should check your premises.

I don't know what "true colors" have to do with anything, but I have done my best to help you, and certainly haven't done it for personal gain. And still you argue. I don't know what else can be done for you.

Sam :thumbup:
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And my advice to you is that Vaughn Neeley is not someone you owe a defense to... If I was attacking your own knives, I would understand perfectly well what you are doing. Since he has presumably no relations to you, I don't.

He has also taken the knife and done nothing with it, which speaks for itself.

You point out that the bevels I put in are too tall, but not that there is basically no difference in sharpness between the edge and the spine on that knife... If you yourself you tried to put a sharp bevel on a spine, it would end up a pretty tall bevel too...

You also said the edge I put on it was too thin, but you provided no angle figure. Yet you carefully showed measurements of the width of the bevel: You pick and choose your data, which is not only not "scientific", but completely biased.... You know perfectly well the edge you saw crumbled with a wide open 30 inclusive angle on it, and yet you choose to side with a maker who sits on the knife and does nothing...

I don't know why you choose to lay your allegiance with Neeley, and instead preferred to insult me in public, but I suspect deep down inside you know perfectly well that this knife is not something you would want to depend on... But you won't say it.

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
And my advice to you is that Vaughn Neeley is not someone you owe a defense to... If I was attacking your own knives, I would understand perfectly well what you are doing. Since he has presumably no relations to you, I don't.

He has also taken the knife and done nothing with it, which speaks for itself.

You point out that the bevels I put in are too tall, but not that there is basically no difference in sharpness between the edge and the spine on that knife... If you yourself you tried to put a sharp bevel on a spine, it would end up a pretty tall bevel too...

You also said the edge I put on it was too thin, but you provided no angle figure. Yet you carefully showed measurements of the width of the bevel: You pick and choose your data, which is not only not "scientific", but completely biased.... You know perfectly well the edge you saw crumbled with a wide open 30 inclusive angle on it, and yet you choose to side with a maker who sits on the knife and does nothing...

I don't know why you choose to lay your allegiance with Neeley, and instead preferred to insult me in public, but I suspect deep down inside you know perfectly well that this knife is not something you would want to depend on... But you won't say it.

Gaston
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Gaston I got nothing else for you. If you cant see that that edge is hideously disfigured and inappropriate for the knife, nothing I say (or anyone else) is going to change that. I don't entirely understand your point here, but no, I have never put an edge like that on a knife in my adult life, nor would I for any reason I can currently think of.

As far as Neeley, why don't you do what you should have done in the first place and contact him. I only spoke up because someone (you) who was obviously operating with very poor information and ideas of how a knife should work chose to talk ill of him in public before addressing it with him directly. Unless I am mistaken. Did you speak to him at all about any of this? Maybe I missed that part.
 
Also, and this is nothing personal here, but after examining the edge bevel you applied I simply cannot take anything you say about knives or sharpening seriously. I just don't see that changing anytime soon. As far as depending on the knife, I have full faith in Vaughn Neeley's work and nothing you have posted here has changed any of that.

The way you grotesquely butchered that edge simply means you have no credibility with me. In other words, if you think that's a "good job," I think your sense of reality in this case is distorted. I can't think of any other way to explain my thought process here without you getting your feelings even more hurt.

Sam :thumbup:
 
Sam Wilson said:
Also, and this is nothing personal here, but after examining the edge bevel you applied I simply cannot take anything you say about knives or sharpening seriously.
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Amen.
I stopped doing that long ago.

Read for laughs, but don't expect factual, useful information.
 
Gaston444 said:
He (Vaughn Neeley) has also taken the knife and done nothing with it, which speaks for itself.

...yet you choose to side with a maker who sits on the knife and does nothing...
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Gaston,

If you want to add something positive to this discussion, it's time for you to take charge, be proactive, contact Neeley, and report your findings. Vaughn is a highly respected, award winning knifemaker with over 40 years of experience. He trained with the late, great Jim Hardenbrook. I think Vaughn will give you a fair and accurate evaluation of your knife and sharpening skills.
 
stabman said:
Amen.
I stopped doing that long ago.

Read for laughs, but don't expect factual, useful information.
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TAH said:
Gaston,

If you want to add something positive to this discussion, it's time for you to take charge, be proactive, contact Neeley, and report your findings. Vaughn is a highly respected, award winning knifemaker with over 40 years of experience. He trained with the late, great Jim Hardenbrook. I think Vaughn will give you a fair and accurate evaluation of your knife and sharpening skills.
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Agreed. Also, thank you bowie69 for the compliment a page back. I look forward to working with you when the time is right.

Sam :thumbup:
 
Sam Wilson said:
Also, and this is nothing personal here, but after examining the edge bevel you applied I simply cannot take anything you say about knives or sharpening seriously. I just don't see that changing anytime soon. As far as depending on the knife, I have full faith in Vaughn Neeley's work and nothing you have posted here has changed any of that.

The way you grotesquely butchered that edge simply means you have no credibility with me. In other words, if you think that's a "good job," I think your sense of reality in this case is distorted. I can't think of any other way to explain my thought process here without you getting your feelings even more hurt.

Sam :thumbup:
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Sam, I have a completely innocent interest in your comments about Gaston's sharpening. By my calculations from your bevel height measure and Gaston's claim of .060" at the shoulder, the bevel is around 20° inclusive. That's thin, but no thinner than many Scandi blades, which is pretty much the kind of edge Gaston put on it. With a 50° microbevel you would think it wouldn't be that fragile.

So what is the problem with the sharpening? In the pictures the bevel and microbevel lines look straight and tidy. Is your issue the bevel shape itself, or was the surface quality of the edge uneven?



Gaston,

It strikes me that the only knife you've said holds up to chopping is a carbon steel blade Randall. Is it really surprising that brittle 440C stainless chips while tough carbon steel does fine?

I'm assuming you don't still subscribe to that Jay Fisher stuff about stainless.
 
If you don't see any problem with that edge aesthetically, then I certainly won't try to convince you otherwise. Apply it to your knives and if it works for you, then I'm happy for you.

As far as how it works, a lot of things "seem" to work on paper, but the reality of it is real world testing and use are necessary to find out what actually happens. Just like when it comes to different heat treating recipes. Actual tests are key. The "edge" Gaston applied to this knife performed pretty much exactly the way I would have imagined.

But who knows, I may be way off and more makers/manufacturers should use this type of edge due to its' effectiveness. Again, apply that type of edge to your knives and if it gets you what you're after, I'm happy for you. Strangely enough it didn't work for Gaston.

Sam :thumbup:
 
Sam Wilson said:
If you don't see any problem with that edge aesthetically, then I certainly won't try to convince you otherwise. Apply it to your knives and if it works for you, then I'm happy for you.

As far as how it works, a lot of things "seem" to work on paper, but the reality of it is real world testing and use are necessary to find out what actually happens. Just like when it comes to different heat treating recipes. Actual tests are key. The "edge" Gaston applied to this knife performed pretty much exactly the way I would have imagined.

But who knows, I may be way off and more makers/manufacturers should use this type of edge due to its' effectiveness. Again, apply that type of edge to your knives and if it gets you what you're after, I'm happy for you. Strangely enough it didn't work for Gaston.

Sam :thumbup:
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As I said, I have no dog in this game. I was just asking if it was the aesthetics or the execution. It sounds like you're saying that it looks terrible, which I don't disagree with. I have also thought that Gaston chose rather fine edges for a chopper. If you want to put a fine edge on a thick blade, this is how it is going to come out.

I have certainly ended up with some pretty high edge grinds on thick knives that I've tried to make cut better, but nothing that high, and not for chopping.
 
I don't know how else to put it, it's been explained several times in this thread by more than one person.

I recently acquired an old Kershaw HH knife. I will put pics of it up soon. I am pretty impressed with the knife. Sheath is like a sleeping bag, so I will probably need to make one for it. I have a little catching up to do, then I can decide what to make for it.
 
Sam Wilson said:
I don't know how else to put it, it's been explained several times in this thread by more than one person.

I recently acquired an old Kershaw HH knife. I will put pics of it up soon. I am pretty impressed with the knife. Sheath is like a sleeping bag, so I will probably need to make one for it. I have a little catching up to do, then I can decide what to make for it.
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I'm certainly sorry to have bothered you.
 
No bother, and you certainly don't owe me an apology. It just feels like this has been beaten into the ground for a year and a half now in this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking it's been done to death.

I much prefer to talk about the knives and kits themselves in a HH thread, and leave the edges, angles and regrinds in the Maintenance, Tinkering section. That's just me though.

Sam :thumbup:
 
Sam Wilson said:
No bother, and you certainly don't owe me an apology. It just feels like this has been beaten into the ground for a year and a half now in this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking it's been done to death.

I much prefer to talk about the knives and kits themselves in a HH thread, and leave the edges, angles and regrinds in the Maintenance, Tinkering section. That's just me though.

Sam :thumbup:
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I had been following this thread, but I didn't see all the previous discussion - I just went back a few pages. I'll try searching for it. Thanks.
 
RX-79G said:
the bevel is around 20° inclusive. That's thin, but no thinner than many Scandi blades,
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That's thinner than any of my Scandi blades, and they are optimized for carving, not chopping.

While I personally prefer an axe for chopping, there are edges that I think chop well. Here are a couple:



This TOPS knife isn't bad, either, though the advertising that goes with it is a little embarrassing:



I guess the bigger hollow handled knives are OK at chopping, but it doesn't seem to be what the designers and makers focused on.

If you look back far enough in the thread, you'll find the "discussion" on edge profile. This particular topic has been lingering for a while. The point seems to be whether it seems rational to take a knife from a well-respected knife maker who had a certain functional specification in mind, alter it radically to a profile that no one else in the world thinks is an appropriate design for chopping, test it in a manner that few would call controlled or scientific, and then complain about the knife maker and his design.

Personally, I really like the Neeley design. It works for what I want to do with it... but I've never tried chopping with it, and would not anticipate doing so. When I practice survival skills (or the few times that it wasn't practice), chopping is not something I do.

 
The other factor is that Neeley knives have a hollow grind, which is not ideal for chopping, and in my opinion, is not a grind that should be thinned out too much.
 
TAH said:
The other factor is that Neeley knives have a hollow grind, which is not ideal for chopping, and in my opinion, is not a grind that should be thinned out too much.
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There are hollow grinds, and then there are "large hollow" grinds that are more like a FFG in the 1/2" or so from the blade edge. That Neeley picture certainly looks like it wasn't done on a small diameter wheel.
 
RX-79G said:
There are hollow grinds, and then there are "large hollow" grinds that are more like a FFG in the 1/2" or so from the blade edge. That Neeley picture certainly looks like it wasn't done on a small diameter wheel.
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Not sure what size wheel Neeley uses, but the blades have a distinctive hollow grind - not even close to a flat grind.
 
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