The knife as an implement of death.......

Mace

Mace

Joined
Apr 8, 2003
Messages
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I have been looking at a few books as of late... of old battle implements/torture devices and the like.
I know there are a lot of ideas on "the ultimate fighting knife" out there.
What I want to know is what do you all think of as a fighting or killing type knife. I think this also covers "self defense" .;) ....What would YOU like to have in such an item?. Lets keep it to knives...not axes, swords and such.
Blades,and shapes, handles/grips,...cary options...would be good.
I would love to hear from some of the boys who might need such an item...if ya know what I mean...:cool:

Mace

Oh, and please don't say a serated edge tanto....PLASE!:D
 
Mace said:
I have been looking at a few books as of late... of old battle implements/torture devices and the like.
I know there are a lot of ideas on "the ultimate fighting knife" out there.
What I want to know is what do you all think of as a fighting or killing type knife. I think this also covers "self defense" .;) ....What would YOU like to have in such an item?. Lets keep it to knives...not axes, swords and such.
Blades,and shapes, handles/grips,...cary options...would be good.
I would love to hear from some of the boys who might need such an item...if ya know what I mean...:cool:

Mace

Oh, and please don't say a serated edge tanto....PLASE!:D
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If their are no size restrictions, then I am going to have to agree with Bill Bagwell and vote for a BFB.............that's Big, Fast Bowie for all of you potty mouths out there......this is a family oriented subforum, after all;) or more generally, a bowie type knife.....an 10"+ Moran ST 24 would do the job just as effectively as a big Fisk Southwestern Bowie or a Bagwell Hell's Belle I would think. As far as carry goes, on the belt either strong side straight up and down or close to it or crossdraw at an forward angle
 
Pattern 1907 bayonet for the Lee Enfield. long enough to reach someones innards through a greatcoat and jacket, and have a heft and swing to it when chopping, short enough not to to overswing with as with a sword, good grip, and could be attached to a rifle for a little more reach and leverage during those desperate charges.
 
That's funny, I just had a conversation today with an old friend, Donnie Shearer about this very thing.
Donnie is a sword maker who happens to own one of the largest authentic Scottish basket hilt sword collections in the world. He's also a well-known combat photographer from VN and a participant in numerous bloody actions, including an all-night, desperate close-quarters fight (only he and one other survived) for which he received a silver star, if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, I figured he'd be a good guy to ask about such things considering he, unlike most of us, actually has fought with a knife in combat.

Donnie wrote, " ... The Marine Corps K-Bar is one of the most famous and desirable knife ever made for the Military, it has a 7” long Bowie type blade, leather grip and metal cross guard.
The important characteristics for the knife are the cross guard, fixed blade and a 'sharp' false edge at the point. The cross guard will keep your hand from sliding down the blade and cutting your fingers if you hit a bone or other hard object like a vest or magazine. The point with two sharp edges will allow you to cut either or both ways in a fight. The big Rambo knives are for show, they just look bad, you can take a K-Bar and do anything with it from clean your fingernails to cut down a tree, not to mention combat."

'If you're fighting with knives, you're going to be cut ... probably quite a bit.'

The way Donnie and the boys used to train for knife fighting (unofficially) was to tape a big felt marker (like a magic marker) to a stick to use as a "knife". They would fight without shirts on--and it would be full-contact knock-down, drag-out sessions. Sometimes with bloody this or broken that.
You see pretty quick how easy it is to be severely injured/killed in a knife fight, and can learn a lot from the marks/bruises. It's also rather useful because its very difficult to actually kill an opponent with a knife faster than he can return the favor. You may hit him first, but doing so with impunity is another matter ...

My sport is Epee. It's the closest of the Olympic fencing sports to an authentic duel. The weapons are, for the most part almost identical to those used in the 19th c. and there is no artificial convention governing actions like other fencing disciplines. Epee is NOT knife fighting, but easily as fast or faster at decent levels of proficiency. What rings so true with what Donnie says (and what a lot of folks seem to overlook) is that it's of utmost importance that you are able to change direction and hit your target fast. Big, heavy knives are not an advantage to this. Length gives reach, but it's no good unless it's also very light and handles well.
 
If it's for pure fighting then I would say a double edged blade with a skull crusher pommel. And a leather sheath in a jackass setup (kydex makes to much noise) ;)


My vote would be for the V-42 stilleto. All business and designed with one goal in mind. The Fairbairn (sp) would be another good one IMO.
 
The Fairbairn is sometimes called a "light duty " combat knife !!! It had the habit of breaking off the tip !! ....It's interesting to read comments of those who hunt pigs with knives.They want an 8-12" blade with strong point , single edged, with good guard. The Cold Steel Recon Scout is recommended and I'm sure the K-bar has done the job well many times....BTW there was a thread on this forum with interesting comments by AGRussell .The Bowie knife was originally a large heavy duty HUNTING knife not a fighting knife !! It had no clip point.He presented documentation for this !
 
mete said:
....It's interesting to read comments of those who hunt pigs with knives.They want an 8-12" blade with strong point , single edged, with good guard. !
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Here in NZ, the most popular hunting knife for pigs for a long time post war (both wars I & II) was the P.1907 bayonet, for the simple reason there were a LOT of them released on the market as the army liquidated stocks and they were just as good sticking pigs as they were at sticking soldiers. :D
 
mete said:
It's interesting to read comments of those who hunt pigs with knives.They want an 8-12" blade with strong point , single edged, with good guard.
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Larry Harley, who has seen thousands of hogs killed with a blade, once said (to paraphrase) "Two edges kill not twice as good, but ten times better."
 
8-12 inches will make a good killing knife for beasts like hogs. In combat 6 inches will do quite well when it comes down to human anatomy. 5 to 6 inches is long enough to cut into the internal organs, yet easy to carry, and much faster in the hand than a longer blade. Yes they work better with double edges, and honed sharp so as to cut and slice open veins and arteries, and not just hack and make holes causing more buising and less cutting.
 
My choice would be a push dagger. If you are talking about inflicting a lethal cut to a human body. One with a five inch blade and a substantial handle. The benefits to using a push dagger; a double edged blade, that is an extension of your arm and can be driven into the body and twisted. A lot of damage with one strike.
If it comes to a fight, I'll choose a hand gun.

Fred
 
Bufford said:
8-12 inches will make a good killing knife for beasts like hogs. In combat 6 inches will do quite well when it comes down to human anatomy. 5 to 6 inches is long enough to cut into the internal organs, yet easy to carry, and much faster in the hand than a longer blade. Yes they work better with double edges, and honed sharp so as to cut and slice open veins and arteries, and not just hack and make holes causing more buising and less cutting.
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Yes, but they don;t work so well if your equally matched opponent has a knife that is light out front and fast that happens to have a 10 or 11 inch blade:D My oinion is that small fighting knives were designed with the compromise of being easily carried and or concealed. If yo look at most of the knives, as opposed to swords, that were intended strictly for martial purposes where stealth or convenience is not an issue, they tend to be fairly large. Think Scottish Dirk, Jambiya, New Orleans Bowie, Baselard, quillion dagger.
 
There's a lot to this, and sometimes people get focused on one type of knife work- like knife versus knife. or solid blow killing (push dagger, for example), and etc.

I can't tell what I'm going to be doing in a situation but I'm unlikely, unless knife duelling becomes a fashion, to be in a large knife versus large knife situation. same with swords, and I hope I don't have to face down a gun with a knife, but I've got kids and that hurts the "run away" strategy. Knife vs. Sticks, on the other hand.....

I think we've all cut ourselves with extremely sharp knives, to varying degrees, and we all know that while a half inch deep cut hurts, it's not going to stop you- or me, at least, from finishing a manuever. I've always been a little less than enthusiastic about 'tactical' folding knives due to that. (I'm also, in a real confrontation, going to do more damage and have less legal liability using other training rather than 3 inch folders.) Don't flame, I'm not discounting them for others, and I carry a small one for unmentioned situations. I'd happily use a 3 inch tactical blade on a dog if I needed to, for example.

I can't argue with a smaller blade being faster, but I still might tend towards a 12 inch light bladed bowie with a sharpened "false" edge, classic american fighter. If I was carrying it as an open daily item, I'd want a tempered steel full or half guard- cutlass style. But where and when am I going to carry one of those in the civilian world?

I carried a SOG government for mayhem once upon a time in uniform, and the government agent isn't a bad one, once you ditch the sheath and get something you can draw out of. I preferred a left hand kidney (I'm left handed) carry, almost horizontal. Only thing I would have really liked different is a bigger pommel for hammerfisting.

I'm not specifically trained in knife fighting, except where it is included in other training, nor vastly experienced, but I'm in the kabar-type camp for most stuff, I guess. The American fighter type is pretty tempting, too.
 
My good friend Joe, can do things with a sarong, that will have you dead in seconds. I think the outcome of most conflicts has more to do with the skill involved in the use of a particular "weapon" than it does the actual object being used.
We each have preferences; most of the time you will, have to use, whatever is handy. I have trained in the lethal use of a full unopened can of beer. You can use it to celibate if you win.
Sorry if this was an OT rant. Its late. I'm headed home for the weekend, Fred:jerkit:
 
All interesting comments! I did not expect the 1907 bayonet.:D

I think what I need to do is give a more clear idea of the type of knife I'm talking about. This is not a knife for killing hogs, or dogs. The size of the knife is not an issue....and you can carry it in the open. Stealth is an issue...so no guns allowed...Fred!;) . More of a hand to hand combat type thing. The knife does not have to double as a camp tool.....it has one purpose.:thumbdn: Mort

Mace


Oh...er...sorry Dan.;)
 
Mace,

All sittuations are different. Give us a short scenario.

Fred
 
Where do you guys hang out that you need knives for this use? I use my knives for camping, whittling, and opening boxes. If someone came after me, I would have to shoot them with my glock. I suppose I could use a knife, but I live by the motto, "he who turns and runs away will live to run another day!" :) I have a wife and kid (soon to be kids). I cant afford to be involved in knife fights. I dont spend my time in places where they are likely.
 
brit1907.jpg


there you go, lets see pics of others fighting knife ideas?
 
OK Fred.....

Matt, I'm talking about the intended use of the knife...not for camping or whittling. I've hung out in some BAD places....but no place this knife would be best in...;)

OK...here is the scenario that I see.

You are tracking a man or small patrol and need to set an ambush. Firearms are not an option(they will give you away). Or you need to silence a guard or sentry.... Or someones comming into your trench with that freakin 1907!:eek: :D

Lets loosen the term knife up a bit too. This is for killing and maximum damage...so it does not have to cut tent stakes or act like a conventional knife. Dig?;) ....it can cut...poke...chop...or break your face(there is no imoticon for that!).

Kayote, You make some good points...I like the idea of hammer fisting(sounds like a good name for a band!) What do you mean about cutlass style? Blade shape? And are you talking 12" OAL or 12" blade?

Fred, Can ya show me the beer can thing sometime?:D
Mace
 
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