The knife as an implement of death.......

[Whoever Wherever]

Thinking on this today I couldnt help but remember that Japans greatest duelist ever killed his opponents in his last 20 duels including the second best swordsman in Japan (a man so fast his strikes were/are legendary) with woden boken with no edge or point at all. As much as one might seek the greatest of hand to hand weapons, the mind and body remain the most important factor. But that aside I am still thinking. Mr Caswell what are your thoughts on the repier? Stabs well but not as thin as the epee.

 

[JCaswell]

.....the question was what KNIFE, not what sword and an epee is a sword. If you want to talk swords, how about a nicely tapered boarding cutlass with the top edge sharpened about 6 inches back? The eppe is very good in defense because it is so long and fast, you can keep people away,but in any attack other than a thrust, seems to me that the sharpened edges aren't all that good for much unless you are planning to give your opponent a nice dueling scar on his cheek.

That's why I showed a broken epee--only about 20 inches long.

Historically, a zip across the gut with an epee is not unlikely to result in guts hanging out. It's one of the reasons for the high belt/waisband seen in much of the dueling art and later, photos, plus once the point is in, moving the blade from a 6 to a 4 position, for instance, (for a right-hander, moving your hand about 12 inches to the left) will cut a large path across the innards as the blade pivots at the wound, but all you'll see is a little hole on the outside. Terrible!

 

[Kiwi303]

the rapier and the epee are the same weapon, in the same view as the Anschutz Olympic .22 is the same weapon as the SA-80/Steyr AUG/M14/M16. I presume you're talking about the historic rapier BJimS? immortalised by the three musketeers Thats a weapon designed to deal with the new muskets and aquebuses. Amour was too heavy to carry around if it didn't provide protection, and muskets made armour obsolete, so it was reduced to a light breastplate, since swords no longer needed to be big bludgeons to smash though armour, the rapier took over from the broadsword. But battles were still settled by edged weapons once the muskets had fired since they took too long to reload at that stage.

As to rapier vs Epee, ones a training arm the others a fighting arm. over time the training weapon become the basis for the non-mortal sporting instrument, and training bouts against oppodents become fun sporting events, and duels become competitions.

The cavalry saber became the saber, and the foil is a dumbed down training arm for the epee/rapier

on that note i'm sure theres somewhere a new orleans bowie fighting re-enactment society fighting with blunt blades with felt on the edges dipped in red ink.

 

[JCaswell]

Ideas I like so far:

Aspects of the epee grip ...

The grip on the broken epee picture is a "Belgian". It offers great power on different lines (you can resist opposition well from different directions) and it's good for accuracy.
The other great thing about most of these grips (otherwise known as 'Orthopedic' grips) is they're designed to offer tremendous control and power with a loose grip (you don't have to strangle the thing to have power). You can handle the weapon lightly, controlling it with your fingers, but you maintain power.
Anyway...
I've long thought some of these grips would be useful for knives. It usually takes a small amount of instruction to show someone how to hold a Belgian. This grip is much stronger and more agile than anything I've ever seen in knives including knuckle grips, sub hilts, etc.
It's a very highly evolved grip form.

Let me know if you ever want to look at one.

 

[JCaswell]

As to rapier vs Epee, ones a training arm the others a fighting arm.

Actually, the modern Olympic epee is substantially similar to the weapons used in the 19th and early 20th C for duels.

In fact many times these later duels were fought with sharpened competition weapons (The famous Aldo Nadi duel fought in the 1920s comes to mind).

The rapier evolved into the transitional (shorter rapier) which evolved into the small sword which evolved into the epee. The foil is the traditional training weapon. Modern epee is the sport designed to most closely emulate a duel with epee. The weapons are appreciably blunted real weapons.

As you point out, the rapier is part of the evolution of the sword owing to the lack of heavy armor, but it had its problems. The authentic rapier is usually quite heavy, often heavier than a medieval broadsword due to the extensive hiltwork. The blades are cumbersomely long too and kind of floppy.
As they evolved, folks chopped them down to about 31 or 32 inches. These are considered 'transitional'. They were still pretty heavy and often not terribly stiff.
The 'cut' was being recognized as inferior to the 'point' around this time.
The small sword began to dominate and was used in 18th C combat at sea and on land. Around this time the triangular blade cross section was developed which is seen on many authentic small swords--pretty much all the later ones. It is almost a defining characteristic of the next evolutionary step, the epee--which is a smallsword with real hand protection. This blade technology was really a revolution. It allowed blades to become much lighter and stiffer.

The epee is the last evolutionary step in the rapier/smallsword lineage. It was designed for killing and was used extensively for this purpose in duels throughout the 19th century.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

Thanks for the input, coming from an oriental point of view in study and sword practice a rapier always seemed to be more of a weapon but I figured you could shed some light on the subject. Having never fenced in the european style or studied the weapons it is easy to come to incorrect conclusions about such things.

Now would a well made epee stand up to a blow from a heavier sword in actual combat? I would imagine that in said duels both men were using simmilar weapons.

 

[Hengelo_77]

Is it not that the epee as a weapon got out of fashion when the sabre was used more and more?

 

[Kiwi303]

it got out of fashion because duelling become illegal, and cavalry swords were slash and hack weapons for use from on the back of a galloping horse. And the men had muskets wit bayonets at that point, not pikes and swords.

 

[ilbruche]

Thinking on this today I couldnt help but remember that Japans greatest duelist ever killed his opponents in his last 20 duels including the second best swordsman in Japan (a man so fast his strikes were/are legendary) with woden boken with no edge or point at all. As much as one might seek the greatest of hand to hand weapons, the mind and body remain the most important factor. But that aside I am still thinking. Mr Caswell what are your thoughts on the repier? Stabs well but not as thin as the epee.

That would be Miyamoto Musashi. One of my favorite points in the Book of Five Rings. Is that every action you make should be done with the intent of killing. I'm at work so I can't quote the book verbatim, but it is an excellent read on sword and military strategy.

 

[Greg Obach]

Hi
i like Joe's idea about a timeline.. .
you also have to think that lot of military blades have costs as a restricting factor in designs..... .. for example ... a Fisk bowie maybe a hell of alot better than a bayonet...but theres no way the military would pay that price..... and i'm sure they'll come up with some facts and figures to prove the cheeper knife is better...

another thing...... what about the " tussle "...? say you get jumped.. and you have to get to the knife while in a bad spot.... i think an "easy to grip" handle is way better.. (thats why i think sub hilts and weird guards are a problem..) ....... also blade length .... imagine trying to pull a 20 inch knife from the case in a struggle/tussle.... i can't see it.... or at least it isn't gonna happen in any timely fashion...


just some thoughts
Greg

maybe this is just like re-inventing the wheel... lol

 

[Kevin Davey]

One particular knife that springs to mind that has been used for several hundred years and yet is still renowned as a modern killing knife in the military ........is the Khukri...... as issued today to the Ghurka Regiment of the British Army.

This is a link to Himalayan Exports with a history of the knife
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/gurkha.html

 

[jdm61]

the rapier and the epee are the same weapon, in the same view as the Anschutz Olympic .22 is the same weapon as the SA-80/Steyr AUG/M14/M16. I presume you're talking about the historic rapier BJimS? immortalised by the three musketeers Thats a weapon designed to deal with the new muskets and aquebuses. Amour was too heavy to carry around if it didn't provide protection, and muskets made armour obsolete, so it was reduced to a light breastplate, since swords no longer needed to be big bludgeons to smash though armour, the rapier took over from the broadsword. But battles were still settled by edged weapons once the muskets had fired since they took too long to reload at that stage.

As to rapier vs Epee, ones a training arm the others a fighting arm. over time the training weapon become the basis for the non-mortal sporting instrument, and training bouts against oppodents become fun sporting events, and duels become competitions.

The cavalry saber became the saber, and the foil is a dumbed down training arm for the epee/rapier

on that note i'm sure theres somewhere a new orleans bowie fighting re-enactment society fighting with blunt blades with felt on the edges dipped in red ink.

The rapier was eventually replaced/supplemented by the small sword, at least in polite French circles Does the foil represent that design?

The comment on Musashi using a boken was an interesting one. There was one more part to the legend that hasn't been mentioned. Musashi supposedly won with a boken that was always just a bit LONGER than his opponents blade. I was talking with Steve Schwarzer, Wally H. and some others at Batsons and the subject came up about sword fighting and dueling. A comment was made to the effect that, contrary to theatrical representions, most fights or duels involving katanas, etc. were over VERY quickly, often with the first counterstrike. I asked Steve about European fencing and he said that he felt that a truly accomplished European style fencer would more likely than not defeat an equally well trained kendo practitioner because the European techniques are just so blindingly fast. Bill Bagewell wrote that the New Orleans Bowie fighting systems were drived form techniques taught by the French, Spanish and Italian fencing masters that were teaching in the city combined with Scottish saber fencing techniques and Creole cutlass fighting styles. I know that Bill Bagwell taught his style to some folks and I guess that James Keating and some others still teach bowie and big knife technique.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

This is a great thread you started here Mace. I love the broad input and opinion. Fred

 

[Dan Gray]

Cheese burger!!! LMAO!

Ideas I like so far:

Aspects of the epee grip.

Dans chainsaw spine(not for cutting wood)

ice pick/spike..........

Still thinking about this. More ideas welcome.:thumbup:
Mace

Dans chainsaw spine(not for cutting wood)

but maybe some bone
can you imagine cutting a spine off from the front side

NOW that's getting mastistic.. :barf:

 

[JCaswell]

it got out of fashion because duelling become illegal, and cavalry swords were slash and hack weapons for use from on the back of a galloping horse.

That's right on.
The saber follows a different developmental lineage than epee, though it's interesting that toward the very end of its development, European sabers became straight, lighter and more point oriented. The American "Patton Saber" was developed around a point-oriented fighting philosophy, and some of the European saber models of that time of that time were straight and lighter-weight still.

You could parry a saber with an epee, though it'll bash up the guard. The epee is very tough and there's plenty of leverage at the forte to take reasonably blows and retain composure (the thickness and weight of the blade is not as important to this as parrying with the forte and not the middle or foible.) It won't be comfortable, but you could do it.

Still, you probably wouldn't have to take many big parries because the savvy saber user facing an epee will use his point. He'd know the typical bent-arm saber attack would almost certainly result in a successful shot to his hand or torso before he could get the point back down.
The slashing motion is much, much slower than running the point right in and the saber edge is only effective at a certain distance (get too close and you can't hit with enough power cut badly).
Remember that all it takes for a successful epee attack is often just a slight deflection of your opponents point. You can have an attack, parry-riposte, counter-parry riposte (three actions) in about one second at epee, any one of these actions could result in severe wounding or death.
Still, if you're on a horse, the saber is the way to go.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

"The comment on Musashi using a boken was an interesting one. There was one more part to the legend that hasn't been mentioned. Musashi supposedly won with a boken that was always just a bit LONGER than his opponents blade. I was talking with Steve Schwarzer, Wally H. and some others at Batsons and the subject came up about sword fighting and dueling. A comment was made to the effect that, contrary to theatrical representions, most fights or duels involving katanas, etc. were over VERY quickly, often with the first counterstrike. I asked Steve about European fencing and he said that he felt that a truly accomplished European style fencer would more likely than not defeat an equally well trained kendo practitioner because the European techniques are just so blindingly fast."


Also, when Musashi made his strike he came close enough to allow his own headband to be sliced off but was uncut himself. When the two men came to rest the crowd thought Musashi had lost when his headband fell to the ground, until his opponent fell to the ground dead from a cruched skull. This was all witnesed by many in Japans highest social circles and recorded as it happened.

I might agree that a kendo fencer might lose to a european fencer, but kendo fencers do not practice actual sowrd fighting at all. Having done iado, kendo and batto-do I can say that niether iato or kendo can prepare you for actual sword on sword fencing. To block, deflect or parry with a katana you must have complete comtrol over the angle and position of the edge of your blade, something a representational string cannot teach you (or else you risk severe dammage to the blade). There are many subtle techniques in batto-do that are simmilar to the european fencings riposte and such. Slight deflects and stabs are used in tokogawa era sword fencing in japan. Dont forget that at this point armor was a non issue in Japan as well. This shifted the katanas of the time to be lighter and thinner of blade that the previous versions. Also is many Ryu's of tokogawa era sword fencing the hands always finish near body center so that even if you have missed your mark you are already positioned to block parry or strike without pause. Mushashi always stressed that the mind must not ever stop with any action in combat or you would shurely die. In his military career he was seen killing as many as 2o men in a row without pause using both of his Daisho. Still this whole discussion makes me want to take up fencing. Just what I need, another hobby lol.

It is true in seceral Japanese arts the results were often fast and the action didnt last long. This is why Shoto Khan makes for very boring movies. Often the best sparring I have seen involves both men sizing up eachothers weaknesses and then a blinding flash of action with one man bieng defeated narrowly. Most of karate is supposed to be leading towards powerfull and fast nerve strikes or cruching blows ment to end a confrontation with a single action.

 

[jdm61]

"The comment on Musashi using a boken was an interesting one. There was one more part to the legend that hasn't been mentioned. Musashi supposedly won with a boken that was always just a bit LONGER than his opponents blade. I was talking with Steve Schwarzer, Wally H. and some others at Batsons and the subject came up about sword fighting and dueling. A comment was made to the effect that, contrary to theatrical representions, most fights or duels involving katanas, etc. were over VERY quickly, often with the first counterstrike. I asked Steve about European fencing and he said that he felt that a truly accomplished European style fencer would more likely than not defeat an equally well trained kendo practitioner because the European techniques are just so blindingly fast."


Also, when Musashi made his strike he came close enough to allow his own headband to be sliced off but was uncut himself. When the two men came to rest the crowd thought Musashi had lost when his headband fell to the ground, until his opponent fell to the ground dead from a cruched skull. This was all witnesed by many in Japans highest social circles and recorded as it happened.

I might agree that a kendo fencer might lose to a european fencer, but kendo fencers do not practice actual sowrd fighting at all. Having done iado, kendo and batto-do I can say that niether iato or kendo can prepare you for actual sword on sword fencing. To block, deflect or parry with a katana you must have complete comtrol over the angle and position of the edge of your blade, something a representational string cannot teach you (or else you risk severe dammage to the blade). There are many subtle techniques in batto-do that are simmilar to the european fencings riposte and such. Slight deflects and stabs are used in tokogawa era sword fencing in japan. Dont forget that at this point armor was a non issue in Japan as well. This shifted the katanas of the time to be lighter and thinner of blade that the previous versions. Also is many Ryu's of tokogawa era sword fencing the hands always finish near body center so that even if you have missed your mark you are already positioned to block parry or strike without pause. Mushashi always stressed that the mind must not ever stop with any action in combat or you would shurely die. In his military career he was seen killing as many as 2o men in a row without pause using both of his Daisho. Still this whole discussion makes me want to take up fencing. Just what I need, another hobby lol.

It is true in seceral Japanese arts the results were often fast and the action didnt last long. This is why Shoto Khan makes for very boring movies. Often the best sparring I have seen involves both men sizing up eachothers weaknesses and then a blinding flash of action with one man bieng defeated narrowly. Most of karate is supposed to be leading towards powerfull and fast nerve strikes or cruching blows ment to end a confrontation with a single action.

I misapplied the term "kendo" I was referring to fighting with real swords and not ones made from reeds

 

[koyote]

it is interesting that we get so stuck on swords. Perfectly reasonable, but interesting. Given no artificial restrictions, it seems like towards an upper limit reach will be a deciding factor. so the needle pointed, guarded, 'cutlass' fighting knife gets a bit longer, and longer, and eventually becomes a rapier or backsword.

It's hard to keep on Mace's page

For what it's worth, I don't think a basic cutlass guard is a disadvantage in drawing a blade in a 'tussle'

 

[ilbruche]

"The comment on Musashi using a boken was an interesting one. There was one more part to the legend that hasn't been mentioned. Musashi supposedly won with a boken that was always just a bit LONGER than his opponents blade. .

I don't know where you heard Musashi used a longer sword but it is definately is "legend" and not fact.

from the Wind Scroll, Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi
On wielding extra-long swords in other schools
" There are some other schools that are fond of extra-long swords. From the point of view of my martial art, I see them as weak schools. The reason for this is that these schools do not know about prevailing over others by any means neccessary; considering the length of the sword its virtue, they must want their swords to be extra long so that they can beat opponents from a distance."

The use of shorter long swords in other schools
" Even if you think that what you gain from a shorter weapon is the ability to cut through a crowd, leap freely, and whirl around, in each case you are in a defensive mode of swordplay and are thus in a distracted state of mind. This is not a reliable way to go."

Musashi was of the "two sword" school. Using both long and short swords together.

Musashi was only "defeated" once by Muso Gonnosuke. Gonnosuke challenged Musashi to a duel, his sword was caught in Musashis "X" block and Musashi hit him on the head. Gonnusuke resigned and went into seclusion to ponder how to defeat Musashis style. He returned with a long staff that allowed him to defeat Musashi, but he let him live since Musashi didn't kill him in the first duel.

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[JCaswell]

For what it's worth, I don't think a basic cutlass guard is a disadvantage in drawing a blade in a 'tussle'

I'm not sure I know what you're saying. If it's about a saber vs. epee disadvantage, I think the saber guard would be a tremendous disadvantage against a trained epeeist.
"Stop hits" to the hand are among the most common actions in epee. The saber guard is not designed to protect against point attack, but the cut. There's typically a large part of the hand/wrist exposed.
This is called the "close" target for the epeeist--something he should be able to hit at a great distance which means lower risk. You get good at these if you want to be successful.
(I've trained hitting a golfball hanging on a string over and over as it swings around for 10 years. A decent epeeist can hit targets around the bell guard that aren't in plain sight, and do so without the opponent perceiving danger. When I switch to saber, the hand is "off target" but that hand is such an easy target for anyone with decent point control, it takes real effort not to intuitively pick it without even thinking. I would imagine when life was on the line, these guys got pretty good with their point control. Drop or lift the guard a tad an "bang!' you're hit.)