The knife as an implement of death.......

Mace said:
Lets loosen the term knife up a bit too. This is for killing and maximum damage...so it does not have to cut tent stakes or act like a conventional knife. Dig?;) ....it can cut...poke...chop...or break your face(there is no imoticon for that!).

Mace
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Ok, getting away from the definition of knife and into the definition of "knife-sized killing object" I'd have to go with the 10"-14" scottish Dirk, or same size Saxon Scramseax, the weapon that gave anglo saxons their name. Any longer than 16" and you're talking swords not knives, which becomes a whole different ballgame.
I still reckon the P.1907 is one of the best modern as opposed to historic knives to kill people with that dont want to be killed. :)

Dirk:
nateb_dagg_casi_dirk.html

dirk02.jpg




Seax:
Seaxes.gif

pic_seax05_s.gif
 
Peter, you got a good point. In proof - I went on a call one Thanksgiving where a guy had stabbed his brother to death, one shot deep in the back, with a BBQ fork for taking the last pork chop. Not exactly a knife, but in concurrence with Peter, whatever's handiest works best.
 
If you are talking ambushing somebody I'd go for a pushdagger. Sneak up to him, give him one good blow to knock him of his feet and continue slashing.
If somehow you are faced with somebody fightng back, it is very unlikely they can take the knife from your hand.

If the situation would be more like a duel in a unrestricted enviroment I'd go for something long and fast and try to use my fencing skills.

I have a 1907 bayonet. It would be good in the open, but soldiers fighting in the trenches found then to be to long to be able to move them around good in the narrow trenches.
These nasty killers got in to fashion for raiding enemy trenches and silent nightly ambushes:
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co032.jpg
 
For me, the knife I have on me is what I'll use (I always carry a fixed blade for work, and keep it sharp enough to handle all the pruning and and cutting I do all day) ..But now that I'm 21, I'm gonna work on getting a revolver and concealed carry permit.. because from what I've heard, it looks better to have simply shot a guy, than to leave him so cut up...

I envision a scenario where a guy attempts to get the jump on me (or has threatened my wife, etc...), I pull a knife, cut him good one time to deter him, but he comes back, and so I cut to finish.. and when the police come, they're looking at me suspiciously. I'd rather just be able to say "He threatened me/mine, so I shot him."


..but I'm young and stupid, so what do I know :D
 
Mace said:
OK Fred.....


Kayote, You make some good points...I like the idea of hammer fisting(sounds like a good name for a band!) What do you mean about cutlass style? Blade shape? And are you talking 12" OAL or 12" blade?

Mace
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12 inch blade :) No reason a 12 inch blade can't be fast. and if you want quick quietude, you need to not have a knife that "just barely" reaches fast kill zones. What if he got stuff in his pockets? Or gets a last second intuition and tries to block?

I like cutlass guards. I've broken fingers a few times practicing with sticks and aluminum trainers, and a simple, inelegant, steel bell guard would have prevented all three. one marine sgt. seemed to glory in that. There's a lot of different ways to do the guard, and a lot of reasons for them.

I still won't argue with a kabar, though.

I will say that for sentries I'd probably personally go for hawks.

Though this is all a moot point because it's been decided that the best *knife* is a *gun*?!?!?
 
The problem I have with modern "killing" weapon designs is that few if any ever kill anyone let alone kill enough people to make a informed opinion on there effectiveness. So for true kill data I turn to boar hunters and there exploits. I think these guys are the only ones still using knives to dispatch large mammals on a regular basis. Seems to me that the double edge bowie with a full guard is there most preffered knife with double edge daggers coming in second. To me this reinforces the idea that these are both effective offensive designs. Cant realy argue against a kabar either however.
 
I'm not sure if I'm comming across the right way...some of you guys seem to get it but some dont.....this might be because I havent made my thoughts clear.
Not manny makers who make knives for doing such dirty work...actualy do said dirty work. How do we know what realy is going to work.
This is not about kitchen knives....BB-Q forks(but I like the idea);) ...or k-bars.
This is a knife that has not been made yet.....the knife of the future!:D
I WANT you guys to think outside of the box a bit.
Trench knives and knuckle dusters are a good start...12" bladed cutlass is too.:thumbup:

Lets get an even deeper scenario:
It's the year 7777....there are NO guns...you can carry only 2 blades and one is a standard camp knife for doing all your chores........you are alone in this world....you are well trained.......and it's your job to kill every one you come into contact with...your 2nd knife is what you will do this with. You want to do the job and be done....remember the human fear factor and something to make the user feel confident. (The WWII smatchet for example)..... You dont want it taken away from you either...This is IT....IT's all you have between you and the world...Kill or br killed....what's it gonna be......

Are we on the same page? What would you really want on your belt?
Remember....it hasnt been made yet.

Oh..and Kiwi...there are NO 1907 bayonet either!:D But we know how much you like them.;)

Here is a pic of my latest fighter...will it do the job?
Mace
orig.jpg
 
Mace said:
Here is a pic of my latest fighter...will it do the job?
Click to expand...

A sharp stick will do the job...;)

In the scenario you mentioned, It would have to be a sword for me. The type would depend entirely upon the type of armor and weapons commonly in use by my opponents.
(If you don't know how to use your sword well, a big machete is probably best.)

The Byzantines made good use of the light lance.

Sorry, I know that's not what you're looking for ...
 
I guess the real question is what circumstance will these fights happen and what will you have to overcome. In the days of bladed combat many designs came about to adress specific circumstances. Long swords, short swords, dirks, polearms ect. Trench knives are great in one area, long bowies in others. I think the knife you posted is a good canisate for a "fighter". However if it was all I had to carry in a post apocolyptic world I would opt for a handle mat that was more durable and never got slipery in any condition and prehaps more gaurd, especially if my opponents had a long knife as well. I would want a quick knife but from what I have read about your work you already knoiw that to be key. :D Deeper finger choils may help but then you get into the fit on each individual. I will have to think on this more. Thanks for pressenting am interesting question in a usually dull discusion topic. I think that makers tend to start to incorperate things we see as adding to a well made knife that may be useless on a true tool of survival. I will try and come up with something interesting to say. =P
 
Why not check "Steel Dawn" out of the video shop? post acyolpse word, swords and knives in use as homesteaders and nomads battle for water in a post nuclear devastaion. Much as in Mad Max they battled with guns for petrol.
 
I thought we already has the discussion about the 'post-apocalyptic future, living in a cave' thing, and I remember responding with something like wanting this in my cave:
28674~Raquel-Welch-Posters.jpg



Back on topic!

Most knife fighters I've heard from or spoken to all tend to buffer what they say according to a million variables including circumstance, training, availability and individual. Almost all of them agree that reach is in many ways of paramount importance, so a longer blade is advantageous. They're also quick to point out that a long heavy blade is likely more dangerous to use, as it reduces speed and reaction.
I think your knife in the above post is almost the 'ideal', as it's long, light, fast, slightly curved to aid in the slashing cut, and pointy enough to stab with.

HOWEVER, I think it needs a sharpened clip, because the concept of a cutlass and it's 'backhand slash' with the clip seems viable to me. It should have a much larger guard, as well.
Here's a point the two of us have discussed before, too - with you and I being the perfect people for contrasting examples. What's light and fast for you (being the bull of a man you are) may likely be cumbersome and awkward for me (being in the NoAssBladesmithingSociety at 6'2" and 153lbs!).
Regarding full knuckle guards and finger grooves and skull crushers... I guess. For me, if the long blade and my 'finger of God' reach advantage didn't get me where I needed, it's likely too late!


Many pointed to Bill Bagwell's bowies as examples, Larry Harley's Battle Bowies also... these seem like good answers to me, with lots of historical as well as contemporary anecdotes to reinforce them.
I also think that Larry's design is the natural progression of Loveless's Big Bear, with the added advantages of reach and better chopping ability. It might be a personal thing (I'm sure of it, in fact), but I've never felt a sub-hilt that felt good to me... the sub-hilt portion always managed to make it uncomfortable for me. Maybe I need a custom?:D
I think the idea of deep hollow grinds is a great one, especially for flyweights such as myself. However, if I weighed 240lbs, I might be in preference of the additional strength that flatgrinding or convexing offers.
The '07 bayonet certainly could qualify, however at that point I'm holding the weight equivalent of a sword -- and I'll take the sword at that point, thank you. No arguing that it's certainly an effective weapon, though!

Great topic, I'd like to see this keep going!
 
As an exMarine I have to get my plug in for the kabar style knive, but your whole scenerio has me thinking of making a knife a bit like a small cutlass. with small bell guard and ring around the handle. I can't discribe it well enough so now I will just have to make the thing:D
 
What you've got pictured is pretty good. I'd personally opt for a bit more blade weight (I'm that previuously mentioned guy. Well, not quite 240, but 220 with a 45 inch chest and I swing hammers and mattocks all day and all that), spear point, definitely sharp on the clip at least 4 inches back. full, roomy guard and a hammer pommel- I do NOT want a pointy skull crusher. I had one of those on a cheap fantasy knife I played with as a younger fool and it kept getting got on my parka cuffs.
 
There is this Indonesian saying on knifefighting that goes like:
'Taking the snakes fangs'
It means that the best way to win the knifefight is cutting the hand that holds you opponants knife.
Him standing there bleeding with no knife and me standing there with a bluddy knife. Now that's an advantage!

So a major point for me would be how hard it would be for the other guy to take my knife from me.
I think something like a trenchknife but with a longer blade.
 
Mace said:
I'm not sure if I'm comming across the right way...some of you guys seem to get it but some dont.....this might be because I havent made my thoughts clear.
Not manny makers who make knives for doing such dirty work...actualy do said dirty work. How do we know what realy is going to work.
This is not about kitchen knives....BB-Q forks(but I like the idea);) ...or k-bars.
This is a knife that has not been made yet.....the knife of the future!:D
I WANT you guys to think outside of the box a bit.
Trench knives and knuckle dusters are a good start...12" bladed cutlass is too.:thumbup:

Lets get an even deeper scenario:
It's the year 7777....there are NO guns...you can carry only 2 blades and one is a standard camp knife for doing all your chores........you are alone in this world....you are well trained.......and it's your job to kill every one you come into contact with...your 2nd knife is what you will do this with. You want to do the job and be done....remember the human fear factor and something to make the user feel confident. (The WWII smatchet for example)..... You dont want it taken away from you either...This is IT....IT's all you have between you and the world...Kill or br killed....what's it gonna be......

Are we on the same page? What would you really want on your belt?
Remember....it hasnt been made yet.

Oh..and Kiwi...there are NO 1907 bayonet either!:D But we know how much you like them.;)

Here is a pic of my latest fighter...will it do the job?
Mace
orig.jpg
Click to expand...

I think Who your target audience for this ideal knife is the key. If you seek to make it useful to military people, then you need to receive further input from there, if you seek to create a "First Blood" type of knife that will be good for
collectors and the film audience, that is an entirely different matter.
Most of the popular knives are useless in military or survival applications, but they appeal to the public because they are stylish.

Your fighter seems to have real promise and I for one would like to feel how it balances in hand.
 
Mace is asking for individual answers- I mean, I realize that for some people, a pair of kerambits, for another it's a kukri, for another it may be a langseax. For me, it's something in the general north/west european tradition of dirk, dagger, sax, spanish dirk, etc. (With the benefits of a cutlass at the hand end and a sharp spine edge at least part way back)

I'm fascinated that the answers haven't shown more variation, though. No one has actually mentioned preferring a kerambit or a tactical folder or even a kukri.
 
This has been an interesting thread. Some very good ideas....:thumbup:

So we are looking at a fast blade somplace between a push dagger and 12" w/ a larg guard to protect the hand(and maybe cause some pain). A Durable handle w/ a blunt hammer type end and good grip. and a sharp clip.

Matt, I agree w/ you. I don't like sub-hilts...they just don't feel right to me.
Maybe I need to make one.;)

As far as target audience....no one....and every one. Would love to hear from guys who could use such an item. Special forces?

I'm trying to conjur up an idea......remember this knife does not exist...so please leave k-bars out of it....that goes for kramits and kukris too.
All fine knives.:yawn: :D
I'm not trying to come up with some fantasy knife either.

You know I'm kinda just playing this thread by ear as we go so...

Lets try to think a bit more outside the box.

The reason I gave you 2 knives is so you had ONE to do your cutting chores.

Lets define your impliment not so much a knife..but.maybe knife like.

Remember...tool of death....

.....really put your mind there.


Mace
 
take the 12 inch bladed tapering double edged cutless with a hammer pommel, what would I add? or do differently?

One handed batliff? too fantasy, too heavy, too dangerous to the user, I think.

I like bearded spiked hawks, *sigh*

okay, add a reverse curve out of the back of the guard, down near the pommel? sort of a spike that would be in line with your wrist, a couple inches long. not really sharp, but pointy and strong enough for use catching a weapon. maybe a few blade catchers on the guard, but I'm not seeing a lot of joy in that. the reverse hook... I'd have to draw it out. maybe a bit of a saber curve instead of straight needle. the reverse curve for draw cuts is interesting, but I've never trained with anything that uses it.
 
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