The knife as an implement of death.......

[Mace]

Hey Guys,
I'm sorry...I didn't mean to neglect this thread. My computer has been down and I just got it back today.
I will need to re read the thread but, I have pulled some good ideas out of it so far.

I have one of those epee swords and would love to see a pic of how it is held.


I'll toss a monkey into the works too: ....
What are your thoughts on kriss blades?

Mace

 

[Jason B.]

my vote is on a cold steel black bear classic or a D2 K-bar

 

[JCaswell]

Hey Guys,
I have one of those epee swords and would love to see a pic of how it is held.
Mace

Here ya go ...

This is how you hold a Belgian grip. The other "pistol" or orthopedic grips (German, Visconti, Russian, etc) are more intuitive--more like a pistol.
I like Belgian because I find it gives superior power during diagonal actions. The other pistol grips are sort of weak that way. I also like it for point control, though guys manage good point control with all sorts of grips.

Notice how the thumb and pointer finger are positions top and bottom of the grip. It is important in fencing that you learn not to strangle your weapon, but hold it somewhat loosely so it can be manipulated largely by the pointer and thumb. The rest of the grip provides stability and power, but the control is from the fingers. This is true with all grip styles, including the classic French grip.
You should be able to pinch the weapon between pointer and thumb and open the rest of the hand and still feel like you have some possession of the weapon---maybe No power, but at least the basis of the proper grip.

On the Belgian, that projection between your middle and last two fingers is also very important for control and power. People with sensitive hands hate it, because they get blisters and tired fingers there. This is because it's a legitimate interface with the weapon and the use of that interface tires their hands. I have strong hands so it's nothing but benefit to me.
You can hold the Belgian grip pretty loosely and use it to it's fullest. You don't have to hold it really tight to exert control of the weapon, which is why I've long thought some aspect of why it works might be applicable to knives, especially fighters. It's a highly developed form.

 

[Mace]

Very interesting grip. I will have to dig mine out and look it over.
Thanks
Mace

 

[jdm61]

I understand that these modern grips give the fencer great feel, control and speed, but I wonder if they actually give a lot of "power" Has anyone ever tried one on a real live rapier? I can see how that might be okay for a pure stabbing weapon, but for anything that was used to slash or parry any blade other than a very thin, light one, i can't see how they would work all that well.

 

[JCaswell]

The rapier hilt is typified by an large ricasso in front of the crossguard. In front of the ricasso are rings, and sometimes a bell or other hilt projections designed primarily to protect the hand.

In the old days, there were various schools of how a rapier should be handled. Some taught "using the rings" others taught gripping the weapon in the middle of the grip, and others taught using the pommel (called "posting" in modern fencing).
I think it's clear that the form of most rapier hilts favors using the rings, and that's where it went. The Classic Italian grip (shown below on a foil), clearly shows the rapier heritage.
The Belgian also shows some of that heritage (more so than some of the other orthopedic fencing grips).
Rather than trying to explain it, I've rather quickly sketched over the pictures to show that heritage, if you squint a little. You can also see it in the shot of me holding the Italian grip.

The rapier was not to be swung like a saber, but you could slash with it. Using the rings gave a lot of control and power, as does using a grip like the Belgian--- which is the highly developed offspring of this approach.

There is nothing weak about these grip, though it is true they are less suited for hacking than a straight grip.

Regarding the parry: The strength of a parry is determined by position more than any thing else, including the relative weight of your blade. You could have a heavy saber and try to parry with the end of your blade (The foible) and you would be ineffective. You could parry with the middle, and might be marginally effective if you're strong. If you parry with the forte--the area just in front of your guard you will be effective even if you're a small woman with a thin little sword. There's no substitute for leverage.

You could parry a heavy saber with an epee fitted with a modern grip. It's not ideal, but neither is attacking an epee with a heavy saber swing. You'd be in real danger of getting transfixed while your arm in the air. The smart epeeist wouldn't even take the parry, but that's tactics and another discussion.
(Sorry for the long post )

 

[jdm61]

Myuncle has had a couple of old school foils (straight handle, "heavy" blade for decades. I read a little bit on modern fencing rules and I see why epee is the fave. I don't like the sound of "right of way" and the limited target areas of foil and sabre. Kind of remnds me of judo classes when i was but a wee lad. If your opponent threw you he scored, but if you escaped from a hold, you scored too.

 

[Blue Sky]

Interesting thread. Here's a little food for thought:

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php

Some historical discussion involving death by swordplay, so a little off topic but still germane to the concept of killing with a blade and the difficulties thereof.

 

[JCaswell]

"My uncle has had a couple of old school foils (straight handle, "heavy" blade for decades. I read a little bit on modern fencing rules and I see why epee is the fave. I don't like the sound of "right of way" and the limited target areas of foil and sabre. Kind of remnds me of judo classes when i was but a wee lad. If your opponent threw you he scored, but if you escaped from a hold, you scored too."



Yeah, epee is the prince of the fencing sports IMO. It's the truest to its martial heritage and isn't subject to a third party trying to interpret what just happened.

 

[Jared Stenoien]

That was a great read Blue Sky, thanks.