The latest Ganzo Firebird D2 knives

[craytab]

Thanks for digging this up. Not that it will matter in the slightest to some of you, but there is a distinction to make. "Ganzo" copies designs but does not make counterfeits. The counterfeits specifically mentioned in the first paragraph of your quote from Sal are coming from a bunch of other companies.

Obviously, the disrespectful actions discussed in the second paragraph are unacceptable. This and the copying are unquestionably bad. However, I do still like some of the original designs Ganzo has brought to the market. Especially when they first launched the FH line, the value for the dollar was pretty good. Even now, so much of that part of the market involves lower quality and worse materials. I think Ganzo could be so much more if they would just cut out the (expletive deleted).

Yeah, I know some people here would never forgive them in a million years. That's another reason I spent all the time I did previously talking about unknowns and the fuzzy boundaries within Chinese manufacturing. We'll never know who all the bad actors are, where they are, who they are with, or how rapidly they cycle within a particular company. This is also why I put quotes around Ganzo in my first paragraph above. The name is what has mattered here in this thread. It's the thumb tack where we hang these associations. Just as I've said, "for all we know, some of the haters here have Ganzo-made knives and don't know it", we also don't know if they have a sideline in actual counterfeits without their name attached. I guess my skepticism and the acknowledgement of our epistemic limits here keep me adverse to strong, permanent, and uncompromising judgements.

Quiet , those aren't semantics. There is an actual difference between copies and counterfeits, both in general and in the quoted section from Sal. This is indisputable fact. I pointed it out because it is relevant. If anything, conflating the two seems "squirmy" to me. Of course, I wrote a whole bunch more than that. Maybe slapping your own face hard enough to hear from across the street affected your reading comprehension and made me look like a "drone". Seek medical attention.

@Hackenslash , while there are obviously more than two tiers, the difference between market tiers seems less "synthetic versus actual" and more a matter of budget. For instance, there are lots of people who only shop within certain budget boundaries. When that boundary is very low, such as $20 or $30, then they definitely won't have most of those originals in their selection pool. In that case, they were not a potential customer at the time of purchase and therefore could not constitute "lost business".

One pro-Ganzo argument I've seen (maybe from Frankie and Bird) involves that group of people. Having that low of a knife budget can be temporary. Sometimes, people start with a budget that low and it causes them to get into knives, acting as a "gateway". As their budget goes up and the originals enter their selection pool, and their knowledge of materials and workmanship expand, their experiences with the copy can influence them to buy the original. I know some people will jerk their knee against this possibility, but I've actually seen it happen twice IRL.

One guy started with a Ganzo copy of the Ontario Rat. It was probably his first online knife purchase. After losing it, he bought an actual Ontario Rat. The other case was more dramatic. The second guy made the jump from cheap gas-station and hardware-store knives to a sub-$20 Spyderco knock-off from Ganzo. He really liked it and to be fair, it probably was a step up in quality for him. That excitement led him to pony up for a Byrd model. The last time I saw him, he was carrying an actual Spyderco. Obviously, this only proves that it can happen, not how often it will happen or how it balances against other consumer decisions.

That's a lot of words. Now, who's on the crusade?

Remember when you argued we don't know if ganzo is an OEM for legitimate brands? The other shoe is....how much do you want to bet that who ever is OEM for ganzo also does counterfeiting?

Plus, the cloning might be as bad as the out right counterfeits since it gives people like you a foot in the door to legitimizing their brand's existence.

Next argument please.

 

[craytab]

I hate taking this back to the classroom but there is also a key difference between burglars and copycats.

The burglar takes a particular thing and the victim loses that thing, 1:1 for that thing plus any corollary damages.

The copycat copies a concept or design and may be committing theft depending on the legal definitions in their respective jurisdictions. They produce something based on it. They sell it on a market. Actual damage is very hard to accurately calculate.

But hey, why argue complicated stuff like that? Listening to you, copying, counterfeiting, and burglary are all the same thing. How about armed robbery? It's only semantics, right?

Lol.

 

[Danke42]

Can't figure out why White Collar Crime is so cool with some folks but Joe Six Pack Blue Collar criminals are frowned upon.

No doubt there is a Buzzfeed article in that.

 

[Chronovore]

That's a lot of words. Now, who's on the crusade?

Remember when you argued we don't know if ganzo is an OEM for legitimate brands? The other shoe is....how much do you want to bet that who ever is OEM for ganzo also does counterfeiting?

Plus, the cloning might be as bad as the out right counterfeits since it gives people like you a foot in the door to legitimizing their brand's existence.

Next argument please.

"Next argument please" implies that you refuted something. Did you?

First, you commented that my post contained a lot words. That's not an argument.

Second, you mentioned my comment that Ganzo has likely done OEM work for legitimate brands. However, that would imply that Ganzo is the actual manufacturer. So why would they use someone else as the OEM for their own product?

You suggest that "cloning might be as bad as the out right counterfeits since it gives people like you a foot in the door to legitimizing their brand's existence"... Please expand this logic for the rest of the class.

 

[craytab]

"Next argument please" implies that you refuted something. Did you?

First, you commented that my post contained a lot words. That's not an argument.

Second, you mentioned my comment that Ganzo has likely done OEM work for legitimate brands. However, that would imply that Ganzo is the actual manufacturer. So why would they use someone else as the OEM for their own product?

You suggest that "cloning might be as bad as the out right counterfeits since it gives people like you a foot in the door to legitimizing their brand's existence"... Please expand this logic for the rest of the class.

No need for me to expound, the rest of the class understands....

 

[danbot]

The bottom line, as far as our hobby is concerned, is that the pros and cons of supporting cloners has been weighed on the scales and the cloners have come up wanting.
Yes, it really can be that simple!

 

[Danke42]

The rest of the class got notes, wrote the test, passed the test with flying colours.

There is no need for a remedial lesson for the "rest of the class".

 

[jlauffer]

The rest of the class got notes, wrote the test, passed the test with flying colours.

There is no need for a remedial lesson for the "rest of the class".

No child left behind!

 

[Eli Chaps]

Why do I take flack for referencing a popular YouTube reviewer? Whether Kevin Cleary, Frankie and Bird, Outpost76, Super Steel Steve, or LTK; I bring something from their channels into the discussion here and someone blasts me for it.

Coincidentally, I don't usually recommend Ganzo to people. In the $20-30 range, I typically recommend Ruike or Kizer's Tangram line.

BTW, did you see where I mentioned Byrd?

Sigh... Because, at least for me, those people are not impressive. What are you hoping to achieve by sighting them? Like they are some kind of experts? BirdshotIV is a knife oriented entertainment channel that is annoying as Hell and I couldn't care less about their thoughts. Super Steel Steve has made it clear that he hates BF and the members and whatever legit info he may be able to provide is shrouded by his desire to be right. LTK, well, we know that one... Kevin Cleary, so what? I've liked the little of Outpost76 I've watched but again, these are just average folks. Just like you and me. I have zero time for Shabbaz and many others.

Having a YouTube channel and posting a bunch of videos about knives doesn't make an expert. So what is your point?

Also, Ganzo sucks. Just say no.

 

[Quiet]

I hate taking this back to the classroom but there is also a key difference between burglars and copycats.

The burglar takes a particular thing and the victim loses that thing, 1:1 for that thing plus any corollary damages.

The copycat copies a concept or design and may be committing theft depending on the legal definitions in their respective jurisdictions. They produce something based on it. They sell it on a market. Actual damage is very hard to accurately calculate.

But hey, why argue complicated stuff like that? Listening to you, copying, counterfeiting, and burglary are all the same thing. How about armed robbery? It's only semantics, right?

I see that you're personally a little stung, I wonder why that is? Is it because Ganzo is a trash company, and this forum knows that and you don't like the fact that threads like these will come up whenever someone searches them out?

It's been explained to you clearly, but you don't seem to care. All you seem to think is that we'd change our minds if only we "knew" what you infer that you "know" about Chinese manufacturing. That we should give Ganzo a chance because you personally want to see their new knives come to market. Hell if I know why, they're trash and no one who knows anything about quality would ever recommend them. Your brand is trash, man. Gotta suck it up. Also? Stop trying to defend them, it's a bad look for you. No, no, I know you don't care. That is apparent. The fact is, however, your boys over at Ganzo won't be getting any traction here. They stole designs, and profited from it and due to their country's garbage laws, they've gotten away with, and hurt one of OURS. Sal Glesser is worth a million Ganzos. You don't have to agree, that's a fact.

 

[Quiet]

Can't figure out why White Collar Crime is so cool with some folks but Joe Six Pack Blue Collar criminals are frowned upon.

No doubt there is a Buzzfeed article in that.

Somebody sure has a big case of the Selfish, whose whole point is "So what if they stole designs? I like a couple of their new garbage designs, and want them! You guys stop saying bad things or bringing up their bad history or they won't get made!"

This has been one of the most sad attempts at obfuscation I've seen in awhile.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

I hate taking this back to the classroom but there is also a key difference between burglars and copycats.

The burglar takes a particular thing and the victim loses that thing, 1:1 for that thing plus any corollary damages.

The copycat copies a concept or design and may be committing theft depending on the legal definitions in their respective jurisdictions. They produce something based on it. They sell it on a market. Actual damage is very hard to accurately calculate.

But hey, why argue complicated stuff like that? Listening to you, copying, counterfeiting, and burglary are all the same thing. How about armed robbery? It's only semantics, right?

Wrong. VERY wrong.
It's not semantics at all.
All those things have something very much in common.
They are all a form of theft aka stealing aka Taking someone else's property without permission.
Is there a chance companies like WE Reate & Kizer used to be just like Ganzo? Or even made/make Ganzo's products?
Absolutely.
That however, is in the realm of the unknown. Until there is evidence to support your presumptions, they are given a pass. Albeit a pass with a very leery eye towards them.
There is no doubt about what Ganzo is, and what they have done.
Therefore, no pass.

Reate, WE, Kizer, Riuke etc.?- Could've, would've, might've
Ganzo? DID!!!

And as to Ganzo "finding jesus" with this new line of in house designs. Doing what is considered the right thing now does not mean your past misdeeds are forgiven. It is a loooong and winding road back to redemption.

Now that I mention those past misdeeds. Have they actually stopped committing them? No.
So you can go ahead and buy that in house designed Firewhatsit and help fund their production of more Axis lock Paramilitary 2's. I'll pass and continue to condemn Ganzo for it.

 

[John_0917]

Ganzo are like the Invicta of knives...not technically fakes but very closely modeled on other brands that are much more expensive, questionable QC and materials...some examples are great, others are junk, very polarizing.

Probably one of the brands most likely to stir up negative reactions here after Strider for Mickey’s behavior and Cutco for generally just being a festering sore on the industry.

 

[Chronovore]

I see that you're personally a little stung, I wonder why that is? Is it because Ganzo is a trash company, and this forum knows that and you don't like the fact that threads like these will come up whenever someone searches them out?

It's been explained to you clearly, but you don't seem to care. All you seem to think is that we'd change our minds if only we "knew" what you infer that you "know" about Chinese manufacturing. That we should give Ganzo a chance because you personally want to see their new knives come to market. Hell if I know why, they're trash and no one who knows anything about quality would ever recommend them. Your brand is trash, man. Gotta suck it up. Also? Stop trying to defend them, it's a bad look for you. No, no, I know you don't care. That is apparent. The fact is, however, your boys over at Ganzo won't be getting any traction here. They stole designs, and profited from it and due to their country's garbage laws, they've gotten away with, and hurt one of OURS. Sal Glesser is worth a million Ganzos. You don't have to agree, that's a fact.

I am a little stung but mostly by the consistent mischaracterizations. Ganzo isn't "my brand". They're not "my boys". I generally don't recommend them to people either. Heck, I've explicitly condemned some of their activities here. I am guilty of advocating for moderation in positions, more considerate discussion, and keeping a path open for Ganzo moving forward.

But hey, Ganzo is Hitler, right? The executives are probably out robbing old ladies at knife point and clubbing baby seals as we speak. (Yeah, that's sarcasm.)

Some of this discussion has me flashing back to the Napster debates back when people used chat rooms. I made the classroom comment because this reminds me of intro philosophy and ethics classes. Intellectual property rights can be a strange topic, especially taken in context across different cultures and legal systems. I made a clear distinction between intellectual and actual property theft but that's not going to matter to some people either. Theft is theft, the thieves are scummy garbage, everything they make is necessarily bad until the end of time, and anyone who dares question that is a bleating drone. Does that sum it up?

 

[DangerZone98]

I am a little stung but mostly by the consistent mischaracterizations. Ganzo isn't "my brand". They're not "my boys". I generally don't recommend them to people either. Heck, I've explicitly condemned some of their activities here. I am guilty of advocating for moderation in positions, more considerate discussion, and keeping a path open for Ganzo moving forward.

But hey, Ganzo is Hitler, right? The executives are probably out robbing old ladies at knife point and clubbing baby seals as we speak. (Yeah, that's sarcasm.)

Some of this discussion has me flashing back to the Napster debates back when people used chat rooms. I made the classroom comment because this reminds me of intro philosophy and ethics classes. Intellectual property rights can be a strange topic, especially taken in context across different cultures and legal systems. I made a clear distinction between intellectual and actual property theft but that's not going to matter to some people either. Theft is theft, the thieves are scummy garbage, everything they make is necessarily bad until the end of time, and anyone who dares question that is a bleating drone. Does that sum it up?

Can’t speak for the others man, but my bottomline is I don’t support Ganzo at all and I don’t agree with their methods. And I hope everyone new who sees this thread thinks twice before supporting a shady company, especially since many inexpensive alternatives were also mentioned here. Simple as that.

No one is calling anyone a bleating drone.

 

[MolokaiRider]

*snip*keeping a path open for Ganzo moving forward.


Some of this discussion has me flashing back to the Napster debates back when people used chat rooms. *snip*

For me personally I would like to see unethical companies like Ganzo shut down...not moving forward.

Were you also in support of pirated music as well?

Here is thing that I experienced. I have a business associate that made a contract to grow sunflower pedigrees for a Chinese buyer. The agreement was that my friend would spend the time, energy, and his expertise in breeding to develop breeder stock. He would then provide parent seed for their production for the next four years.

After a few years of time and investment, he got the genetics dialed in and sent them their first batch of seed. Upon arrival... they paid for that single shipment, then kept his genetics as their own. Radio silence afterwards, even though the contract was for him to provide the parent seed, and the genetics were created by his breeding stock.

I find this practice shady and disingenuous. I would never want to do business with these people again, let alone hope they succeed off his efforts and “move forward”.

To each his own I suppose. Just not my cup of tea.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

I am a little stung but mostly by the consistent mischaracterizations. Ganzo isn't "my brand". They're not "my boys". I generally don't recommend them to people either. Heck, I've explicitly condemned some of their activities here. I am guilty of advocating for moderation in positions, more considerate discussion, and keeping a path open for Ganzo moving forward.

But hey, Ganzo is Hitler, right? The executives are probably out robbing old ladies at knife point and clubbing baby seals as we speak. (Yeah, that's sarcasm.)

Some of this discussion has me flashing back to the Napster debates back when people used chat rooms. I made the classroom comment because this reminds me of intro philosophy and ethics classes. Intellectual property rights can be a strange topic, especially taken in context across different cultures and legal systems. I made a clear distinction between intellectual and actual property theft but that's not going to matter to some people either. Theft is theft, the thieves are scummy garbage, everything they make is necessarily bad until the end of time, and anyone who dares question that is a bleating drone. Does that sum it up?

Alright I think I get you.
You see intellectual property as a very vague concept that's far too difficult to really prove due to nuances and minor design changes. Since it is so difficult to prove legally, considering overseas laws, You choose to not really hold it against a company for doing it, because it is legal where they operate. Also, you seem to be more ok with clones because they are not exact copies of the original product, but still don't necessarily condone it.
Essentially what you are trying to do is educate people about those said nuances and legal, cultural, and national points of view and how we should be taking that into account. Especially considering how much we, as consumers have no real idea how much of any product is made by companies that also partake in more nefarious activities.
Is that about the gist of it?

 

[Chronovore]

... No one is calling anyone a bleating drone.

... can't wait to see the usual bleating from the usual apologists.

... which the usual defender drones have ...

And then the burglar walks up to Chronovore like "Yo man, thank you so much! ...

LOL Sounds like a hell of a guy.

 

[Chronovore]

Alright I think I get you.
You see intellectual property as a very vague concept that's far too difficult to really prove due to nuances and minor design changes. Since it is so difficult to prove legally, considering overseas laws, You choose to not really hold it against a company for doing it, because it is legal where they operate. Also, you seem to be more ok with clones because they are not exact copies of the original product, but still don't necessarily condone it.
Essentially what you are trying to do is educate people about those said nuances and legal, cultural, and national points of view and how we should be taking that into account. Especially considering how much we, as consumers have no real idea how much of any product is made by companies that also partake in more nefarious activities.
Is that about the gist of it?

That's close.

Generally, IP rights aren't just vague. IP rights are more abstract and more complicated than ordinary property rights. They are culturally and geopolitically relative. Compared with other basic rights, the corresponding restrictions imposed upon people by IP rights are much greater. There are also legitimate questions about conflict between IP and other basic rights.

So while I don't approve of copying on a personal level, I see taking a vigorous stand on IP rights as problematic. I tend to bring up the legal side of that in response to people boldly but recklessly pronouncing things "criminal" or "illegal". I bring up the even murkier issues of exactly who is who and making what for whom according to whatever rules or relationships in response to hard, zealous, and proudly permanent stances on which Chinese company's product is acceptable to own, endorse, or even discuss. I imagine the theme is apparent.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

I fully understand your point. I also agree with quite a bit of the points you are making, but in this case it does not apply.

Wouldn't you think that thought process should work in reverse? Shouldn't, for instance, a Chinese company respect the laws of the land in which they sell their product and be respectful of the legal, political, and cultural situations of a country like the United States?
Companies like Reate & Kizer seem to get that. For Ganzo and companies like it, as long as they follow the rules that THEIR country has put forth, they can claim ignorance. When confronted about their tactics they will hide behind the geopolitical differences. Instead of understanding and respecting those differences, they ignore them and essentially spit in the faces of the companies that they are stealing from.

It works both ways. When an US athelete goes over to play in another county's league is it ok to play the game the american way, or does he conform to the rules and customs of where he is playing?

Ganzo is fully aware that what they are doing is wrong in the USA and it is quite obvious they just don't care.

In laymens terms this is how I look at Ganzo..
"This is my yard. You have to play by my parent's rules. It doesn't matter that your parents said it's ok."
"If you refuse to play by our rules, or what we are doing goes against your parent's rules, you can pick up your ball and go home."