The latest Ganzo Firebird D2 knives

Status
Not open for further replies.
Chronovore said:
I am a little stung but mostly by the consistent mischaracterizations. Ganzo isn't "my brand". They're not "my boys". I generally don't recommend them to people either. Heck, I've explicitly condemned some of their activities here. I am guilty of advocating for moderation in positions, more considerate discussion, and keeping a path open for Ganzo moving forward.

But hey, Ganzo is Hitler, right? The executives are probably out robbing old ladies at knife point and clubbing baby seals as we speak. (Yeah, that's sarcasm.)

Some of this discussion has me flashing back to the Napster debates back when people used chat rooms. I made the classroom comment because this reminds me of intro philosophy and ethics classes. Intellectual property rights can be a strange topic, especially taken in context across different cultures and legal systems. I made a clear distinction between intellectual and actual property theft but that's not going to matter to some people either. Theft is theft, the thieves are scummy garbage, everything they make is necessarily bad until the end of time, and anyone who dares question that is a bleating drone. Does that sum it up?
Click to expand...

Dude, you keep trying to backwalk, but the fact is, you are here defending them.

That gives lie to everything you say above. I mean, I really don't understand why this isn't clear.
 
Chronovore said:
That's close.

Generally, IP rights aren't just vague. IP rights are more abstract and more complicated than ordinary property rights. They are culturally and geopolitically relative. Compared with other basic rights, the corresponding restrictions imposed upon people by IP rights are much greater. There are also legitimate questions about conflict between IP and other basic rights.

So while I don't approve of copying on a personal level, I see taking a vigorous stand on IP rights as problematic. I tend to bring up the legal side of that in response to people boldly but recklessly pronouncing things "criminal" or "illegal". I bring up the even murkier issues of exactly who is who and making what for whom according to whatever rules or relationships in response to hard, zealous, and proudly permanent stances on which Chinese company's product is acceptable to own, endorse, or even discuss. I imagine the theme is apparent.
Click to expand...

God, why do we get these people who have never created anything of value in their lives, and thus have never felt the pain of its theft by unscrupulous scumbags always in here defending this trash company?

This sentence tells us all we need to know about you, and why you keep attempting to spin your defense of Ganzo as some sort of intellectual debate instead of what it actually is.
 
Another Ganzo "defense" / "advertise" thread that could be considered a theft of oxygen. But no, the internet is wide and it can stomach that kind of "play". Still, amazement is there : how can (supposed) knife lovers support what purposedly destroys the very industry ?
 
craytab craytab , good grief. Yeah, forget debate. Knock me for adding a single line of explicit sarcasm amidst all of the time I've spent trying to write reasonable responses amidst mischaracterizations and insults. I know drones aren't supposed to be human but I guess I did something really horrible here. I guess everything I've ever written is no longer valid. Congratulations for finally putting me in my place.

Quiet Quiet , yeah, now you know all there is to know about me and my horrible outlook on economic philosophy. You somehow figured out that I've never produced anything of value in my entire life. I've never suffered misfortune or been the victim of anything. I have shamelessly invested a whole bunch of effort into carefully disguising my love of Ganzo as "some sort of intellectual debate". BTW, are you just anti-Ganzo or are you opposed to all Chinese knives?
 
danbot said:
Regardless of murky associations or grey areas or vague unenforceable laws, They have done real financial harm to companies that we want to support.

The damages are real and they don't get some sort of cultural pass.
Click to expand...

Prove it.
 
danbot said:
I don't need to prove it. This is the court of internet forum opinion, not a criminal court of law. :thumbsup:
Besides, its self evident that financial harm is done when theft occurs.
Click to expand...

Is it? That's a question that still hasn't been fully resolved. Some of the intellectual property versus real property issues come into play regarding what you called "self evident". In this kind of case, you'd have to show how the cheap knockoff caused a loss of sales for the product or design feature being knocked off.
 
Chronovore said:
Is it? That's a question that still hasn't been fully resolved. Some of the intellectual property versus real property issues come into play regarding what you called "self evident". In this kind of case, you'd have to show how the cheap knockoff caused a loss of sales for the product or design feature being knocked off.
Click to expand...

So wait, is it now your position that Mr. Sal Glesser of Spyderco is a liar? He has flat out stated that these cloners have caused his business harm.

I just wanted to quote your stance for posterity.
 
Chronovore said:
Is it? That's a question that still hasn't been fully resolved. Some of the intellectual property versus real property issues come into play regarding what you called "self evident". In this kind of case, you'd have to show how the cheap knockoff caused a loss of sales for the product or design feature being knocked off.
Click to expand...
Hmmm...the knife I like is on sale for $89.99! But I just saw the "exact same knife" brand new on the Bay for $18...I'll take it!

You don't think this scenario has ever played out?
 
Chronovore said:
craytab craytab , good grief. Yeah, forget debate. Knock me for adding a single line of explicit sarcasm amidst all of the time I've spent trying to write reasonable responses amidst mischaracterizations and insults. I know drones aren't supposed to be human but I guess I did something really horrible here. I guess everything I've ever written is no longer valid. Congratulations for finally putting me in my place.
Click to expand...
This is where an apology should have been. Rather, you double down. You do know that the man you compared our little knife discussion to actually murdered members of people's family that post here right? If you can't see how you screwed up, no wonder you can't grasp the very simple conversation of not supporting cloners. Shameful.
 
Quiet said:
So wait, is it now your position that Mr. Sal Glesser of Spyderco is a liar? He has flat out stated that these cloners have caused his business harm.

I just wanted to quote your stance for posterity.
Click to expand...

Very clever. Someone made a strong claim that Ganzo has done "real financial harm" to some companies. A running theme in my posts here is that it's super easy to make bold claims. I asked him to back it up by concretely demonstrating the specific losses caused by Ganzo.

BTW, you never answered. Are you against all Chinese-made knives or just Ganzo?
 
Chronovore said:
Very clever. Someone made a strong claim that Ganzo has done "real financial harm" to some companies. A running theme in my posts here is that it's super easy to make bold claims. I asked him to back it up by concretely demonstrating the specific losses caused by Ganzo.

BTW, you never answered. Are you against all Chinese-made knives or just Ganzo?
Click to expand...

Wow, so I'm right. You have decided that Mr. Glesser must be making things up. Whelp, it's always nice when people reveal the real them.

Also, I am against ALL Chinese knives personally, but that's not the topic of this thread.
 
Chronovore said:
That's close.

Generally, IP rights aren't just vague. IP rights are more abstract and more complicated than ordinary property rights. They are culturally and geopolitically relative. Compared with other basic rights, the corresponding restrictions imposed upon people by IP rights are much greater. There are also legitimate questions about conflict between IP and other basic rights.

So while I don't approve of copying on a personal level, I see taking a vigorous stand on IP rights as problematic. I tend to bring up the legal side of that in response to people boldly but recklessly pronouncing things "criminal" or "illegal". I bring up the even murkier issues of exactly who is who and making what for whom according to whatever rules or relationships in response to hard, zealous, and proudly permanent stances on which Chinese company's product is acceptable to own, endorse, or even discuss. I imagine the theme is apparent.
Click to expand...

Ah...Okay...So you're an academic. Now it makes sense.

Well, out here in the hi-tech manufacturing real world, IP is a very big deal and the only vagary is trying to find ways to not violate someone's while still making a product. There's no incursion on basic human rights like has become so popular on campuses lately. It isn't difficult to understand. I deal with these things every day.

By the way, the Chinese fiercely defend their own IP while simultaneously stealing other's.

I don't need a lecture on being reasonable, or my concrete outlook, or subtleties or any of that. There's so many gray things in life that sometimes, when you walk up on a black and white issue, you choose a side and move on. This one was pretty darned easy for me and I see zero point in reversing course.

Ganzo sucks. Just say no.
 
craytab said:
This is where an apology should have been. Rather, you double down. You do know that the man you compared our little knife discussion to actually murdered members of people's family that post here right? If you can't see how you screwed up, no wonder you can't grasp the very simple conversation of not supporting cloners. Shameful.
Click to expand...

Friend, you don't know my ethnic or religious background, or where my family was early in the last century. For however grave you think my words, making the assumptions necessary to shame me or expect an apology to a group with which I might share kinship takes this to a new and highly inappropriate level.
 
NorthernSouthpaw said:
I fully understand your point. I also agree with quite a bit of the points you are making, but in this case it does not apply.

Wouldn't you think that thought process should work in reverse? Shouldn't, for instance, a Chinese company respect the laws of the land in which they sell their product and be respectful of the legal, political, and cultural situations of a country like the United States?
Companies like Reate & Kizer seem to get that. For Ganzo and companies like it, as long as they follow the rules that THEIR country has put forth, they can claim ignorance. When confronted about their tactics they will hide behind the geopolitical differences. Instead of understanding and respecting those differences, they ignore them and essentially spit in the faces of the companies that they are stealing from.

It works both ways. When an US athelete goes over to play in another county's league is it ok to play the game the american way, or does he conform to the rules and customs of where he is playing?

Ganzo is fully aware that what they are doing is wrong in the USA and it is quite obvious they just don't care.

In laymens terms this is how I look at Ganzo..
"This is my yard. You have to play by my parent's rules. It doesn't matter that your parents said it's ok."
"If you refuse to play by our rules, or what we are doing goes against your parent's rules, you can pick up your ball and go home."
Click to expand...

Yeah, and that's part of why I said early on that I think it's in poor taste on Ganzo's part. However, I don't know the exact difference between taste or expected norms and the legal particulars for all their models. You made an interesting distinction between making copycat knives in a foreign country and selling them in our country. I think there's something to that. I mentioned that they are consistently for sale on Amazon, not because I expect Amazon to be active IP police but because I'd expect there to be some method or recourse available if laws are actually being broken. (Perhaps someone with a better legal understanding could fill us in.)

I'm an avid fan of several Chinese companies making knives and gear under $100. I'm happy to recommend Kizer, Civivi, Bestech, etc. They make really nice knives for the price and don't have these more obvious moral complications hanging around their neck. Of course, that's still pretty recent. When Ganzo launched their original line in 2018, I tried their FH11. Versus the norm for $20-something Chinese-made knives of the time, I was impressed. Unfortunately, the issues under discussion here have kept me from actively recommending them.

One final issue for the crusaders here is a matter of scope. If it is good to make our purchasing decisions based on moral analyses of the companies, what is the appropriate scope for making those decisions. How do we weigh these moral issues? For instance, I demonstrated the difference between copycats and counterfeiters. I find the latter far more offensive. What other moral dimensions should be considered? For instance, if a knife company was on record donating money to a group that was actively campaigning to take away your liberty or violate a natural right that was arguably more fundamental than IP rights; how would that compare?
 
Chronovore said:
Yeah, and that's part of why I said early on that I think it's in poor taste on Ganzo's part. However, I don't know the exact difference between taste or expected norms and the legal particulars for all their models. You made an interesting distinction between making copycat knives in a foreign country and selling them in our country. I think there's something to that. I mentioned that they are consistently for sale on Amazon, not because I expect Amazon to be active IP police but because I'd expect there to be some method or recourse available if laws are actually being broken. (Perhaps someone with a better legal understanding could fill us in.)

I'm an avid fan of several Chinese companies making knives and gear under $100. I'm happy to recommend Kizer, Civivi, Bestech, etc. They make really nice knives for the price and don't have these more obvious moral complications hanging around their neck. Of course, that's still pretty recent. When Ganzo launched their original line in 2018, I tried their FH11. Versus the norm for $20-something Chinese-made knives of the time, I was impressed. Unfortunately, the issues under discussion here have kept me from actively recommending them.

One final issue for the crusaders here is a matter of scope. If it is good to make our purchasing decisions based on moral analyses of the companies, what is the appropriate scope for making those decisions. How do we weigh these moral issues? For instance, I demonstrated the difference between copycats and counterfeiters. I find the latter far more offensive. What other moral dimensions should be considered? For instance, if a knife company was on record donating money to a group that was actively campaigning to take away your liberty or violate a natural right that was arguably more fundamental than IP rights; how would that compare?
Click to expand...

I love how you keep asking all these irrelevant questions in an attempt at some sort of "gotcha" move. It's clear to me that you're ok with theft, in this case IP theft, and have stated unequicovally that you think Mr. Sal Glesser, the head of Spyderco, was lying about his statement that Ganzo's stealing their knife designs impacts them. It's as I've said. Your words and mindset are those of someone who's never produced anything of value in his life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top