the most mind boggling question ever

Halcon said:
subaru, IMHO, you're whacked, inexperienced and freakin clueless

I have been tracking this thread and your responses are unbelievable.

How can you sit there and spew "crap" like "your more likely to be attacked by sharks in Kansas than be in a survival situation in the woods"? I suppose it means we don't need search and rescue teams then... right?

how about all the news reports of lost hikers... don't know of any? okay here's one for your edification

http://www.pe.com/localnews/hemet/stories/PE_News_Local_B_hiker09.3dfb909.html

still not satisfied? okay then here's another

http://www.gatago.com/alt/true-crime/16359912.html

ohh and by the way in case you didn't understand, they survived by finding another lost hikers pack. A hiker who never made it out because he didn't know how to handle himself in a survival situation.

these are just two stories of thousands.

ohhh! and lets not forget to make note of those in Katrina. seems to me there were thousands of people in a survival situation.

Ohhh! I'm sorry not wilderness enough for you.

well let me say this, if they had any training many of them could have handled the water situation differently as far as procuring, filtering and purifying, using the same techniques you would in a "wilderness" survival situation.

Alan Halcon
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One of the things that makes this forum fun (for me) is the many differing opinions/perspectives. No need for name calling. The good folks on here should be able to discuss topics without it getting personal. BTW, Alan, I completely agree that survival situations can and do happen in the woods all the time, and being prepared should be all of our goals. Ya'll have a good one.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Building a fire inside a small brush shelter seems ill-advised. Did Stroud actually do that?
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That surprises you? He has also slept inside caves which are known to be insanely unstable and dangerous due to possibly getting crushed with falling rock/ice. If you have to have a fire inside your shelter for warmth it is much safer to use a fire bed than an actual open fire.

-Cliff
 
Halcon said:
subaru, IMHO, you're whacked, inexperienced and freakin clueless

I have been tracking this thread and your responses are unbelievable.

How can you sit there and spew "crap" like "your more likely to be attacked by sharks in Kansas than be in a survival situation in the woods"? I suppose it means we don't need search and rescue teams then... right?

how about all the news reports of lost hikers... don't know of any? okay here's one for your edification

http://www.pe.com/localnews/hemet/stories/PE_News_Local_B_hiker09.3dfb909.html

still not satisfied? okay then here's another

http://www.gatago.com/alt/true-crime/16359912.html

ohh and by the way in case you didn't understand, they survived by finding another lost hikers pack. A hiker who never made it out because he didn't know how to handle himself in a survival situation.

these are just two stories of thousands.

ohhh! and lets not forget to make note of those in Katrina. seems to me there were thousands of people in a survival situation.

Ohhh! I'm sorry not wilderness enough for you.

well let me say this, if they had any training many of them could have handled the water situation differently as far as procuring, filtering and purifying, using the same techniques you would in a "wilderness" survival situation.

Alan Halcon
Click to expand...


Inexperienced in what? I meen most americans are more likly to be attacked by sharks not hikers or someone in a special situation. Being in a survival situation in the woods with NOTHING is pretty rare. If your going hiking you should have a compass and some tools to make fire and whatnot. If they dont then whoopdedo, I dont care about those people. You would have to be pretty dumb to be in a forest big enough to get lost in with nothing. Most parks have trails and are not very big. Have you ever been in a survival situation? because you call me inexperienced...
 
as a matter of fact, yes I have been in a survival situation... twice. also, I happen to teach and write for a national outdoor magazine. if that isn't enough for you, I currently hold the record for getting a coal with the handdrill... 4 seconds.

one was hurricane Jose, I happened to be on St. Marteen Island. the other was more urban survival the Rodney King Riots. that is not to mention the numerous small emergencies I've had to handle while teaching people who think they know what they're doing.

by the way where are you getting your Stats from? How many shark attacks were there last year... a couple hundred, if that? now how many people were affected by Katrina... a few thousand? which one produced more deaths? how about the year before that, wasn't there a tsunami in indonesia that killed thousands.

do you have any idea how many calls mountain search and rescue teams have gone on this past year. guess what I have friends that are SAR and one said that last season (summer) they went on 113. oh by the way that was only one unit. we're not even talking about the nation as a whole.

and No, being in a survival situation in the woods with nothing is not pretty rare... not even close. I go into the woods just about every weekend and see day walkers and hikers go in with nothing more than a bottle of water in there hand... sometimes not even that. the it won't happen to me mentality is what makes these people do that.

last year I was in the Sierra mountains on Memorial weekend guess what? four separate incidents resulted in four separate deaths in that one weekend alone. these incidents could have been avoided had it not been for sheer stupidity.

having gear does not mean you won't be put into a survival situation it just means you're prepared. however, if you don't know how to use it, what's the point.

Do you wish to further engage me on my experience and credentials?

Alan Halcon
 
they werent lost in the woods. Katrina was the fault of the government being ill prepared and spending the money on a worthless war insted of making our country better.

I go walking in small parks with nothing all the time, I even got lost once and found my way out just before dark. It might have been bad a little bit later though. All I had was a emerson folder and I was still smoking at the time so I had a zippo but I would have gotten a fine for starting a fire so I couldnt have done that. A survival situation is possible but you need to be in a big forest with nothing.
 
Halcon said:
Do you wish to further engage me on my experience and credentials?
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Yes, but not along previous lines. I would be curious as to when you are teaching survival methods/preperation what do you have as a core fundamental. If you consider that most of your students are likely to take that class and only that class how to you focus the information so as to give them maximal chance for survival. Lets say for example you have a short period of time, say a few days, with a small group of individuals, what would be your general material outline and manner of presentation.

-Cliff
 
Thomas Linton said:
Field-expedient/emergency shelters in cold weather seem to mainly fail into two general types:

1) the shelter with a space just large enough for your body - to retain body heat - sorta a tarp and sleeping bag replacement.

2) the shelter built with an open side to receive radient heating from a fire.

Building a fire inside a small brush shelter seems ill-advised. Did Stroud actually do that?
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Yes he actually did that. He caught part of the upturned tree roots (he used as partial shelter with fallen limbs etc) on fire (smoldering) and then went "oh that isnt such a good idea" or somesuch.



Edit : Enter Cliff with the Azz busting. lol!
 
Cliff I will give you your answer in a bit

getting lost is not the only way to end up in a survival situation. what about someone who accidently falls over the side of an embankment breaks a leg and can't get out. it's getting late and cold? that to me sounds like a survival situation. how about the guy who is ice fishing and falls through the ice and needs to warm up? that certainly sounds like a survival situation. what if you get abducted and dumped in a remote area? what of hunters who get lost because they are so tunnel visioned tracking their prey?

do you have any idea what the word "survival" means? did you not read the links I posted? the one couple survived because they found a lost hikers pack. the lost hiker had died way before this couple stumbled upon his gear. and guess what the dead hiker had gear, that's how the couple was found, they used his gear.

what kind of F*****g crap are you talking about, the governments fault? it is not the responsibility of the government to make sure you survive. it is your own damn responsibility. Are they supposed to set up your BOB, make sure you have your cache set up, and have an evacuation plan in place? NO

by the way, residents were given fair warning to evac. but they took your mentality "it won't happen to me"

what about the looting and crimes are you supposed to wait for the authorities to come defend you? hell by the time they get there it's over?

my brother damn near died in my arms from multiple gun shot wounds. the ambulance didn't show up for 20 minutes. was I there, in the hail of gun fire? yes I was.

just because you go walking in small parks all the time doesn't mean everyone does the same.... I DON'T,

A survival situation is possible but you need to be in a big forest with nothing.
Click to expand...

you have to seriously be kidding me. no one can possibly be that ignorant

Alan
 
Halcon said:
getting lost is not the only way to end up in a survival situation.
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This is absolutely true. In fact, I'm guessing that the majority of survival situations in the United States are a bad combination of car trouble and extreme weather conditions. Growing up in Minnesota, we learned early to always pack seriously warm clothing and food and water if we were traveling outside the Minneapolis/St. Paul metropolitan area during the winter time. One thing you don't want to do is have car trouble on a cold February night in upstate Minnesota without the right clothing/supplies.

I've seen and heard of survival situations occuring because a small plane crashed into remote forests and mountain areas. They say it'll take an average of 48 hours for SAR to get to a downed pilot if they come down outside a population center.

People on snowmobiles have a good way of getting stuck out in the woods after dark.

The list goes on.

The fact of the matter is, we've become used to our mechanized culture. So much so that we often aren't prepared to deal with the situation when the mechanical doo-dads break down on us.

A few years ago, out of political and environmental concerns, I decided to start walking or biking as much as possible, instead of jumping in my car. Even though I've done a lot of hiking in my life, I was still surprised at how far away that corner store is, when you walk instead of drive. Now imagine the surprise when you drive "only an hour" up that dirt road and the tire goes flat with no spare.

The answer to all of this is simple: if you're traveling out of town, carry a PSK (and know what to do with it). Unfortunately, most people don't even know what a PSK is, hence the need for SAR units in almost every county in the country.
 
cliff, in answer to your question.

I really believe in Cody Lundins approach. you maintain your core body temperature at 98.6 degrees. Because classes are year round each one can be different, based on the season. however, the core is maintaining that body temperature. you are well aware of the basic principles no doubt, but realize those principles can change in order of importance. For instance, shelter has always been at the very top of the list, but in some situations it may be at the bottom. as an example, I was in Palm Springs for a few days over the summer during the day it was 115 and I sought refuge under trees. at night it was a balmy 98 degrees. there is not enough money in the world that would have made me build a shelter in the heat let alone sleep in one at night thus blocking any potential crosswinds. at that point a sudden down pour would have been a welcome treat. however, put me and my students in a cold winter environment and shelter goes to the very top of the list. if snow is abundant, water may drop a peg, as far as the need to go searching for it.

I try to instill the core principle of maintaining your body temp and that means being able to adapt differently in different environments at different times of the year.

I have a motto "Adapt, Overcome and Survive"

if that didn't answer your question, I'll try to clarify

Alan
 
I agree you dont have to be lost to be in a survival situation. The fact is your pissed off about what you read that I posted on a forum. You dont know me for shit and I the same about you. Those levys were way out of date and old and fucked up. If they would have put in new ones that would not have happened. Those people had nothing to begin with they didnt say "it wont happen to us" they had no car. no magazine writer job, no money! This is the wilderness survival forum not the every survival situation forum. The words "a survival situation" grasp alot of topics, and im talking about one topic.

Their was a guy who became paralized somehow on a bridge. His car was on the road area and he was over the rail beside the edge laying their for like 3 days. People came within inches of him and did not know he was simply over the little devider thing. He almost died.

On september 11th when the planes hit those people were in a survival situation. you can say that about almost anything you see on the news.


The kind of survival situation im talking about is being lost in the woods thats it, no injurys nothing that is going to kill you instantly just being lost and having no food shelter or water.
 
those people shouldn't have been living there anyway. New Orleans is below sea level. it was up to them to not do it based on the risk factor. If I tell you hey Subaru I have this mansion on an island and I'll let you live there for a 100 bucks a month, however, the surrounding water is filled with crocs and very dangerous are you going to do it? if so, I'm going to say he knew the risk. it's not my fault he got ambushed by the crocs.

however Subaru, I will concede to your stipulations. why don't you address the other points I wrote about; the articles, Search and Rescue, getting injured. seems to me bulgron gave you some very good examples as well.

Alan
 
Halcon said:
those people shouldn't have been living there anyway. New Orleans is below sea level. it was up to them to not do it based on the risk factor. If I tell you hey Subaru I have this mansion on an island and I'll let you live there for a 100 bucks a month, however, the surrounding water is filled with crocs and very dangerous are you going to do it? if so, I'm going to say he knew the risk. it's not my fault he got ambushed by the crocs.

however Subaru, I will concede to your stipulations. why don't you address the other points I wrote about; the articles, Search and Rescue, getting injured. seems to me bulgron gave you some very good examples as well.

Alan
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Well they were not concerned with the risks. They were cought up in their poverty and trying to make a buck. Your right about the other situations its a dangerous world out their and alot of things can kill you.

Im not into crocs:eek:
 
the city i live in is 4 feet below sea level. i guess the only good side of that is that there are many beautiful dike trails to run/ride/walk across.

cheers ^^
 
Alan, thanks for the detail, that is a very solid strategy. If you are so inclined I would be interested in any details you would care to provide on a typical day, or even module or lessen you are trying to teach.

-Cliff
 
yeah me too!

show us ur secrets!!!

it'd be awesome to have a section of the forums strictly dedicated to survival techniques and strategies from real survival instructors...

although i know there are many people on the forums who know lots of survival skills and arent survival instructors =)
 
Thomas Linton said:
Building a fire inside a small brush shelter seems ill-advised.
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On the surface, I would agree with you, but that would depend on the shelter. A shelter can be built against a stone face to reflect a small fire at its base. John McPherson builds a shelter like that in one of his videos. Also, in Woodsmoke, Richard & Linda Jamison, Menasha Ridge Press, 1994, ISBN# 0-89732-151-0, page 242, "A quickie shelter can also be built against a rock for added protection from wind and rain and the rock base holds heat from your reflected fire."

Larry Dean Olsen mentions the use of a very small fire in a snow cave (since I know people are going to call me on this - Outdoor Survival Skills, Larry Dean Olsen, Chicago Review Press 1990, ISBN# 1-55652-084-0, page 24 -and I quote, "It is not necessary to build a large fire inside for light and warmth. If a candle is available, that's all you need. Lacking candles or lamps, a fire can be built and kept very small. Make it on top of a tin can, in a tin cup, or on a small flat rock, and feed it with shavings and small twigs.")

A wickiup, depending on its size, is a natural for a small, central fire pit, or maybe even a Dakota fire pit. Jim Riggs in The Best of Woodsmoke, Richard L. Jamison, Horizon Publishers, 1982, ISBN# 0-88290-203-2 page 32 "For cooking and warmth, we built a large fire in front of our wickiup. At the time I was leary of kindling a fire inside because of our low "ceiling," but in the numerous enclosed wickiups I've built since then, I've come to prefer an inside fire."

Doc
 
I think there comes a time when, whoever is a true outdoorsman/survivalist, they are living in the outdoors. I believe the time frame I have heard is 40 days. If you can survive in the wild for 40 days, any day after that you are no longer "surviving" but "living" in the wild.

I guess in regards to Stroud or Mears, its a matter of who is the better teacher to us lesser mortals. . . . For my money, Stroud mostly because I have steady access to his program.

Mike
 
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