The Problem with Buck Liner Locks

[Makael]

I just stopped by my local Wally World and saw they had their version of the 293 in stock. Cool looking knife, but it had the thinnest liner lock I have seen outside of a gas station or flea market. Not too impressive looking at all. It may hold up fine, but couple that with a nonadjustable pivot and I had to walk away.

I think the pivot is adjustable but with a special tool.

 

[Makael]

I have a 293. And yes when I bend the blade and handle the lock bar moves. Im not going to call this a flaw. I'm going to call it a plastic knife in the budget category.

I went waaay out there punishing a poor Buck Marksman with absolutely no failure. I still have the knife. I took lots of pictures and told the story. One tough knife.

The op is just enjoying his thread here.

 

[Roguer]

Interesting on that version of a fail.

I use linger locks and frame locks always assuming they are going to fail, had to many try and eat me so to speak with normal use. They are useful though and light for carry. I myself went back to lock backs and more sturdier locking mechanisms. The old stand by 110 once again became my main carry in the form if the 110 lite.

 

[cbrstar]

I watched the vids, but I didn't read all 5 pages on here so forgive me if I'm repeating someone.

OP your first vid to me isn't a liner lock issue, it's your pivots are way too loose! If you can't tighten it then IMHO yes that's a design flaw, but I get the impression from how easily it opened that you have loosened up the screws as much as possible.

2nd vid isn't a issue for me. I could be wrong but from my understanding as liner locks wear out they naturally go to the right a little bit. And I haven't watched too many stress tests but the ones I've seen the lock bends to the right. So to me IMHO I want the lock to be more so on the left a little bit.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

I watched the vids, but I didn't read all 5 pages on here so forgive me if I'm repeating someone.

OP your first vid to me isn't a liner lock issue, it's your pivots are way too loose! If you can't tighten it then IMHO yes that's a design flaw, but I get the impression from how easily it opened that you have loosened up the screws as much as possible.

2nd vid isn't a issue for me. I could be wrong but from my understanding as liner locks wear out they naturally go to the right a little bit. And I haven't watched too many stress tests but the ones I've seen the lock bends to the right. So to me IMHO I want the lock to be more so on the left a little bit.

I'm not convinced the pivot fastener is loose and regardless, the flexing of the handle is what causes the liner lock to disengage. Thus, design flaw. That much flex REGARDLESS on a liner lock knife is wrong.

Do you really think that failure to lock up on a new knife is ok because the lock will wear in? How will it wear in if it isn't used? And REGARDLESS of your argument, a liner lock knife won't even stay open if the lock doesn't engage. It's not a slip joint. This, however, is a precision requirement for manufacturing, not really a design flaw.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

Interesting on that version of a fail.

I use linger locks and frame locks always assuming they are going to fail, had to many try and eat me so to speak with normal use. They are useful though and light for carry. I myself went back to lock backs and more sturdier locking mechanisms. The old stand by 110 once again became my main carry in the form if the 110 lite.

The two Vantage knives I own have handles that are quite stiff. Only way, I believe, to disengage their locks would be to inadvertantly do so with a finger.

You and I both need a 110 slim.

I must defer to your experience with liner locks although I would recommend you try a Vantage if you haven't already.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

I have a 293. And yes when I bend the blade and handle the lock bar moves. Im not going to call this a flaw. I'm going to call it a plastic knife in the budget category.

I went waaay out there punishing a poor Buck Marksman with absolutely no failure. I still have the knife. I took lots of pictures and told the story. One tough knife.

The op is just enjoying his thread here.

So then, an affordable knife, the Buck 293 Inertia, is unsafe by design and that's ok? I like the knife and use it but really, this can be fixed.

My Marksman failed, no question, after one use during an encounter with an aggressive male dog. I see this as a failure of the knife, you see it as an opportunity to destroy your Marksman and declare there is no problem. This thread is not about that.

 

[STEELHEADBULLY]

So then, an affordable knife, the Buck 293 Inertia, is unsafe by design and that's ok? I like the knife and use it but really, this can be fixed.

My Marksman failed, no question, after one use during an encounter with an aggressive male dog. I see this as a failure of the knife, you see it as an opportunity to destroy your Marksman and declare there is no problem. This thread is not about that.

Male dogs are all bark and little bite. Your lucky it wasn't a female

 

[BuckShack]

Stephen, you have invested time in this and it appears you genuinely care about the safety of these knives. Have you taken the next step to inform Buck directly? Someone from Buck may be reading here, but it's no guarantee and if they are, whether or not they would respond. I'm sure they would be interested in seeing your knives to fix them and fix their process if needed.

 

[Makael]

So then, an affordable knife, the Buck 293 Inertia, is unsafe by design and that's ok? I like the knife and use it but really, this can be fixed.

My Marksman failed, no question, after one use during an encounter with an aggressive male dog. I see this as a failure of the knife, you see it as an opportunity to destroy your Marksman and declare there is no problem. This thread is not about that.

You blame the Marksman for failing. Yours failed? Mine didnt. I beat then tell out of it. The knifes lock is known to be tough.

What do you want with this thread? .

Have you even let Buck know yet? Or would you rather bash them first then get a hold of them about the issue.

If you haven't got a hold of Buck yet..... What do you want then?

You won't be happy with the 293. Get a Micarta 110 or a different model.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

Stephen, you have invested time in this and it appears you genuinely care about the safety of these knives. Have you taken the next step to inform Buck directly? Someone from Buck may be reading here, but it's no guarantee and if they are, whether or not they would respond. I'm sure they would be interested in seeing your knives to fix them and fix their process if needed.

I'm sure Buck Knives is aware of the handle flex in the 293 and they haven't seen it as a problem so why would my little remarks make a difference? My knife, while I see this as a design defect, is probably not the norm for their production. And besides, I just wanted a little discussion on it to see what others thought, I didn't want all the back and forth with the Buck Defenders crew. There is maybe one page of useful discussion in this thread.

I will probably send it in for adjustment after awhile and we shall see how that changes the flex effect on the liner lock angle.

I do appreciate your genuine response.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

You blame the Marksman for failing. Yours failed? Mine didnt. I beat then tell out of it. The knifes lock is known to be tough.

What do you want with this thread? .

Have you even let Buck know yet? Or would you rather bash them first then get a hold of them about the issue.

If you haven't got a hold of Buck yet..... What do you want then?

You won't be happy with the 293. Get a Micarta 110 or a different model.

I don't know that your Marksman didn't fail. Post a video of the back and forth blade play showing whether or not the lockup is loose. And even if it is not loose, and my guess is that it is loose, even then what has that to do with the failure on my knife?

You let Buck know, you are Captain Save-a-buck. I wanted useful, intelligent discussion on what I see as not just an issue with my Buck 293 Inertia but as a design issue with liner locks:

1. A liner lock knife must not have flexible handles as this alters the angle of the liner lock with it's striking surface on the blade tang which can remove the over center state of the lock thereby allowing the lock to disengage.

2. The blade pivot on a liner lock knife cannot allow the blade to have side play as this alters the angle of the liner lock/striking surface on the blade tang, see (1.)

3. The precision required by (1) and (2) above must be met by the manufacturing process and if that is not possible or feasible by way of either economic reasons or workforce management or quality control then because of (1) and (2) the liner lock itself is a design defect.

Since we know already that the Vantage knives, at least I believe we know, do exhibit a good liner lock, I believe (3) is not an issue with Buck Knives.

And I am already happy with my 293, I just think it can be better and yes, I am concerned with it's safety for those who aren't careful or don't know better.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

Male dogs are all bark and little bite. Your lucky it wasn't a female

He was a male german shepherd, very nice looking dog, and he did bite my hand but, and this is funny, I was wearing cut proof gloves level 5 so there was no broken skin. Blood was spilt but it wasn't mine.

Don't let your aggressive dogs run loose, some humans aren't safe. And that's God's Truth right there.

 

[Makael]

Edited. Stephen going back on ignore.


The intelligent conversation stopped when the obvious was ignored.

This knife has flexible handle. The early lock up is just that. Early, beats the hell out of late lock up. Puts your big boy pants on and get with Buck engineers and tell them how it is.

I don't know that your Marksman didn't fail. Post a video of the back and forth blade play showing whether or not the lockup is loose. And even if it is not loose, and my guess is that it is loose, even then what has that to do with the failure on my knife?

You let Buck know, you are Captain Save-a-buck. I wanted useful, intelligent discussion on what I see as not just an issue with my Buck 293 Inertia but as a design issue with liner locks:

1. A liner lock knife must not have flexible handles as this alters the angle of the liner lock with it's striking surface on the blade tang which can remove the over center state of the lock thereby allowing the lock to disengage.

2. The blade pivot on a liner lock knife cannot allow the blade to have side play as this alters the angle of the liner lock/striking surface on the blade tang, see (1.)

3. The precision required by (1) and (2) above must be met by the manufacturing process and if that is not possible or feasible by way of either economic reasons or workforce management or quality control then because of (1) and (2) the liner lock itself is a design defect.

Since we know already that the Vantage knives, at least I believe we know, do exhibit a good liner lock, I believe (3) is not an issue with Buck Knives.

And I am already happy with my 293, I just think it can be better and yes, I am concerned with it's safety for those who aren't careful or don't know better.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

Edited. Stephen going back on ignore.


The intelligent conversation stopped when the obvious was ignored.

This knife has flexible handle. The early lock up is just that. Early, beats the hell out of late lock up. Puts your big boy pants on and get with Buck engineers and tell them how it is.

The problem my second video shows is not an early lockup of my Buck 290 Rush, it is a non lockup. I see now what you did there. When the knife was entirely new some weeks ago, a normal assisted open would not lock the blade. Now it seems to but just barely. It is not a lockup to be trusted.

Early lockup is not the same as no lockup.

 

[cbrstar]

I'm not convinced the pivot fastener is loose and regardless, the flexing of the handle is what causes the liner lock to disengage. Thus, design flaw. That much flex REGARDLESS on a liner lock knife is wrong.

There's two things wrong with this 1) You haven't even bothered to rule out loose pivots by seeing if you can tighten them. 2) 99% of folding knives were never designed to be a prybar in the first place. So if you're using it like this and the lock disengaged well it's your fault as you're using the knife incorrectly. Obviously this knife isn't for you, and maybe you should be looking at brands like Cold Steel, who actually has model they say can be used to pry stuff with.

Do you really think that failure to lock up on a new knife is ok because the lock will wear in? How will it wear in if it isn't used? And REGARDLESS of your argument, a liner lock knife won't even stay open if the lock doesn't engage. It's not a slip joint. This, however, is a precision requirement for manufacturing, not really a design flaw.

Did you give your knife a spine wack test? If it holds up to a spine test guess what it's locked. But if you still think the liner should be more over in the right I think I gave you the solution in my first post. Take it apart and gently file the liner.

 

[DeSotoSky]

Can't believe this thread is headed for 100 posts.
A lot of passion here.... and no winners.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

There's two things wrong with this 1) You haven't even bothered to rule out loose pivots by seeing if you can tighten them. 2) 99% of folding knives were never designed to be a prybar in the first place. So if you're using it like this and the lock disengaged well it's your fault as you're using the knife incorrectly. Obviously this knife isn't for you, and maybe you should be looking at brands like Cold Steel, who actually has model they say can be used to pry stuff with.

Did you give your knife a spine wack test? If it holds up to a spine test guess what it's locked. But if you still think the liner should be more over in the right I think I gave you the solution in my first post. Take it apart and gently file the liner.

Tightening the pivot would alter the configuration of the knife and essentially invalidate my posting. I wouldn't do that. The flex in the knife the first video shows comes from the handles. The blade does have some side play, but I don't see it as the reason the liner lock is pushed over to disengage. The occurrance of a side force on the blade does not mean it is being used as a pry bar. I would not expect the lock to hold for this. You have only to use some imagination to see that cutting can involve a side force on the blade. It may not be intentional, but does a slip with the knife mean it should close on the fingers?

I know the knife in the second video does not lock up because I can disengage the lock by pushing on the back of the blade while holding the handle with the other hand. No, I'm not going to whack the spine. And I'm not fixing it either. Buck can do that when I'm done using it as exhibit B.

But thanks for the advice. If I decide to fix my knives, I shall take this into consideration.

 

[Stephen W Huyssoon]

Can't believe this thread is headed for 100 posts.
A lot of passion here.... and no winners.

This is not a post about winning or losing. It's about some problems with the Buck liner locks as shown in my two videos.

 

[BuckShack]

Well, the family members I was going to gift a 290 Rush knife are winners now. I am putting some mileage on the liner locks as we speak. Mine is on the far right with probably 1000+ flicks open. To it's left maybe 200 now (since this thread started) and to it's left brand new, which is how they arrived. Yes, they locked open. But really, look at them.

And that's a CRKT Squid on the far left so it's not just a Buck knife problem. And the AG Russell not pictured that almost took my finger off a few years ago, I did have to file it down to make it safe.