The "Sebenza" effect

[Sonnydaze]

I wonder what the price range is of the rest of their knives. Of course some Sebenza owners have several expensive folders. And maybe for some of those people the Sebenza just happens to be their favorite. There is no ONE TYPE of Sebenza owner and I doubt that there is only one reason why people choose a Sebenza over other knives.

I have owned various custom folders in the $500 range. I've owned both a 3" slicer and a 3 1/2" spanto XM-18; sold those mid-$700 knives after two weeks.
I have owned many Sebenzas; both small and large. The small is too small for my hand, but sometimes the wood inlays are so beautiful, I can't hold back. But I turn them around rather quickly. I own three large Sebenzas and one Umnumzaan at the moment. I carry my Zaan every day; sometimes alternate with a large Sebbie. Quality counts.
I also love Spyderco and often buy the models that run on the EXCHANGE here for about $130-$230 ANIB. I keep them for a while and then they're gone. I never carry them, although I am a great believer in the PM2 and the compression lock. Just plain fun to close the blade on one of those. I once had a mini-collection of the PM2's in various super-steels: had three NIB s90v's for instance. But I sold all those quickly again. Spyderco has so MANY nice models...
sonnydaze

 

[Comeuppance]

I just got it today!

First impressions: S'alright.

The thumbstud is too smooth and too close to the handle to function particularly well as a thumbstud. The pivot action is smooth, but I have had smoother knives out of the box and there seems to be a lot of pressure on the blade that prevents that glassy-smooth gravity closing that I typically associate with perfect pivot action. The lockup is perfect, as is the centering. The blade is sharp and somehow makes 3.62" look a LOT larger than other knives I have and have had in the same size range. It's an interesting optical illusion.

The ergonomics are unremarkable. I have no concerns about slippage, but I will say that the handle shape is not impressively comfortable or form-fitting. The glass-breaker is too dull to function as such, and if it were not dull it would pose a thigh-poking hazard. The proprietary pivot looks fantastic but is unadjustable without the proprietary tool which makes disassembly not an option.

It's just kind of okay given the price. I can get a 0550 and have a smoother pivot, the same perfect lockup, the same steel (potentially with a better heat treatment; I really don't know how much credibility to lend either side), a similarly fantastic warranty, and all at 1/4 the price. Heck, my Kizer does all of that, for that matter, as did my Gayle Bradley, and my 0561BW, and my Hogues, and… I don't think this is the knife for me.

In summary:
The inherently practical person that I am is not sufficiently impressed by this knife to justify use or continued ownership. I'll have to try out a 25 someday, but it's at least good to have that gotta-try-an-umnumzaan monkey off my back after all these years.

It's a bit sad that my knife snobbery has gotten to the point where an Umnumzaan doesn't make me all aflutter.

 

[Kowan]

The Umnumzaan isn't on my list to own. Cool looking blade, but overall not one I feel I need to have. Your's must not be one of the new ones that needs an Allen wrench to remove/adjust the pivot.
The 25 is close enough like my Sebenza, I'd have to find a great deal on a left handed one to buy one.

 

[BellaBlades]

I was let down by the um as well. Very tough, just did not like the feel at all. Try a simple 21 or the 25 if you need the extra thrills.
Simpler is what I appreciate.
You sound like you are looking for a favorite knife, I do not like the term grail. Sorry to hear you are having trouble. Keep on trying them out.
Ive been around the block and have been lucky enough to know what my top few are.

 

[Barabus]

I'll chime in with a different perspective. I had a Sebenza for a while and never really warmed up to it, so I eventually sold it off. It was certainly excellent quality and I didn't have any complaints. It was pretty much as flawless as can be in terms of fit and finish. It just didn't really do much for me. I own and have owned many knives from high end customs to midtechs etc. and I suppose there is just too much out there for me to try out to.

+1. Same for me.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I just got it today!

First impressions: S'alright.
The blade is sharp and somehow makes 3.62" look a LOT larger than other knives I have and have had in the same size range. It's an interesting optical illusion.

I can get a 0550 and have a smoother pivot, the same perfect lockup, the same steel (potentially with a better heat treatment; I really don't know how much credibility to lend either side), a similarly fantastic warranty, and all at 1/4 the price. Heck, my Kizer does all of that, for that matter, as did my Gayle Bradley, and my 0561BW, and my Hogues, and… I don't think this is the knife for me.

I'll have to try out a 25 someday, but it's at least good to have that gotta-try-an-umnumzaan monkey off my back after all these years.
It's a bit sad that my knife snobbery has gotten to the point where an Umnumzaan doesn't make me all aflutter.

"Knife snobbery" is not so true...as is your experience with a multiplicity of blades. You KNOW what you like in a folder. That's a good thing, regardless of price. "Snobbery" would only exist, IMO, if you felt you could only carry the most expensive, regardless of whether you liked the knife. I love CRK's in general, and they are all expensive, but I'm also very fond of less expensive Spydercos and a few Benchmade models, like the BM 710/D2.

"I'll have to try out a 25 someday" The ONLY Sebbie I don't like. Had one; sold it quickly. The blade was rather intimidating, even though this newest Sebbie blade thickness is now the same thickness as my Zaan. I lost several micro-slices of my thumb when closing the blade...

I have a NIB 0550 gen 2, but will never carry it. I've had quite a few ZT's and they are great folders. In general, however, nearly any ZT seems much more bulky than my Zaan. I can only contrast, not compare, the 0550, whose handle thickness is 0.575" when my Zaan is 0.465".

Look at these two pics, and you'll see why I prefer the Zaan, even if it does cost two or three times as much...




I really am sorry that you don't like the Zaan. But that makes the world go 'round. Enjoying the thread.
sonny

 

[evilgreg]

What I noticed with CR's s35vn is that the extreme edge does wear quickly but will keep a working edge very long, where as my southard keeps it's extreme edge but the working edge diminishes a bit quicker.

I'm not sure how this would be happening if they're sharpened similarly; M390/CTS-204p is a solidly more wear resistant steel than CPM-S35VN. Are you sure you aren't running your Southard edge too thin? Do you run a wider micro-bevel? If your Sebenza is keeping it's edge longer than your Southard under similar use, something is wrong . . .

 

[JBoone]

My SnG has had this effect (although I own a small sebbie to).
I don't use it at work, a bit big for the office (seb is part of office rotation) but at home I don't want to carry anything else. Love my spydercos but for now they just sit.

 

[rexromic]

CRK, great company with a great knives,small Sebenza and Umnumzaan being my favourites.

 

[cchu518]

I don't own a Sebenza. But I played with a Wilson Combat and a small plain 21 for a week. I also did own two BM Pinnacle 750s. They were both users. I would arguably say the BM 750's might have been smoother than the Sebenzas, but they are not a replacement. You basically need to just handle CRK. It's not ergonomic like a Spyderco but ergonomic like your favorite steak that you've had forever. It's a slim design where you get a ton of knife relative to the handle and everything about it has some forethought put into it. Whereas the 750 felt like a Ti blank of the Sebenza. The Sebbie feels like a refined product. I don't think it's gentlemanly at all but it has just such nice fit and finish.

IN my head, I personally can't chalk up $400-$500 for a knife that I wouldn't EDC everyday. Otherwise I would have picked one up for giggles. I just can't rationalize it. I do think they are nice. But I have other hobbies. I just picked up a Yellow Amazon Parrot this weekend and a giant Caitec custom order cage. And I would like to pick up a nice trick CZ or Sig this year. If you have an Un coming in I really do think you will enjoy it. I've looked far and wide I don't believe there's an alternative, its' too iconic. That said there are also some pretty cool knives out there that can float other people's boat just as well like Striders, William Henry's etc...etc... I do have a Sage 2 coming in that I got for $125 in a few days. I think it's a fun knife and I'm interested in seeing if I can bond with it as much as I liked the Small 21. I think ultimately I might just have to get a small 21 even if I don't EDC it. It's just a very fun knife, I'm not too snobby about stuff though I EDC a $15 Colt Peanut made in China, lol.

 

[The Logical One]

After a few years of being into the knife thing I noticed there are three types of Sebenza people....

Type 1) The haters.... these are the ones who can't afford to spend $350-400 on a knife so they find every reason to justify the fact that they can get a knife that is "just as good" for $60.

Type 2) The honey-mooners.... these are the ones who newly ventured into the realm of more expensive mid-tech knives after having bought entry level $60-150 knives for a while. After reading about all the hype they finally get to experience what people have been raving about and are head over heels. They are 100% convinced that their new sebenza is going to be "THE" knife for eternity.

Type 3) The loyal cult collectors.... these are the people who have a massive collection of CR knives and are true lovers of these particular knives and have been for years.

I fell into the type 2 category for a while when I first got into knives. Don't get me wrong, they are really really nice knives, but after venturing into the realm of custom knives and owning a wide range of mid-tech knives I think there are much better stuff to be had out there.

 

[MEJ]

After a few years of being into the knife thing I noticed there are three types of Sebenza people....

Type 1) The haters.... these are the ones who can't afford to spend $350-400 on a knife so they find every reason to justify the fact that they can get a knife that is "just as good" for $60.

Type 2) The honey-mooners.... these are the ones who newly ventured into the realm of more expensive mid-tech knives after having bought entry level $60-150 knives for a while. After reading about all the hype they finally get to experience what people have been raving about and are head over heels. They are 100% convinced that their new sebenza is going to be "THE" knife for eternity.

Type 3) The loyal cult collectors.... these are the people who have a massive collection of CR knives and are true lovers of these particular knives and have been for years.

I fell into the type 2 category for a while when I first got into knives. Don't get me wrong, they are really really nice knives, but after venturing into the realm of custom knives and owning a wide range of mid-tech knives I think there are much better stuff to be had out there.

I was the kind of person that bought one, couldnt really get used to using a $400 knife, sold it and now i have 2 that are the only knives i carry.

 

[Cynic2701]

I did note, can't say it's either good or new.
I also noticed prices on those knives - ZT350 ~115$, Kershaw Leek ~35$, Buck Vantage 58$-80$... Sebenza 400$+.... Correct?

Now, honestly, comparing 400$ knife with 40$ knife, is that apples to apples to you? I don't see too many threads about "leek" effect, nor do I see leek to ZT350 being promoted as "the one knife" after which you stop buying other knives, blah blah...
Funny how Sebenza fans are happy to get down to 0.00001 precisions on some topics, but magnitude level of price differences are no issue.

Point is, I expect a lot more from 400$ knife than from 40$ knife, may be not 10 times edge holding, but tight tolerances just on the part dimensions are not enough, especially if as you say someone intends to use a knife, I assume for cutting something. Tight tolerances and "ease of field sharpening" are not enough for me for a 400$+ price tag...


Ironically, details like 0.005" precision are more likely to be measured and noticed on safe queens, or "carried with little use" category
Softer blade compared to other knives will be noticed in actual use, if the owner knows how to sharpen the knife and uses it properly...

Anyhow, to each his own, but bringing up 10 times cheaper knives as an excuse or justification for Sebenza's specs is dubious at best.

I think you misread me. I'm not trying to "justify" my purchase, nor excuse the $400 (nowadays isn't it a bit more I think?) which, as the result of CRK's pricing policies, doesn't reflect the typical discount from MSRP we see on most knives. There are many threads bemoaning this.

On the following page of the thread I linked, Ankerson chimes in with an HRC for his Umnumzaan at 59.5--though probably on a different HRC tester and therefore +/- 1 HRC.

If you have more HRC values for other S30V knives I would be very eager to have a look, as I'm not always convinced that manufacturer claims are accurate--which that thread seems to attest to. In my opinion it is unfair to make blanket statements about the "softness" of a particular manufacturer's heat treatment for a steel (any steel, not just S30V) without also making the same statements about other manufacturers.

Nor did I mention in the post you quoted anything about tolerances. The details I was - admittedly vaguely - alluding to were things like blade/handle ratio, size when closed, relative thinness, heat treating the lock bar face, excellent pocket clip, single screw size construction, and a variety of other things like crowning/chamfering and generally paying attention to small out of the way things in the design.

In any case, wouldn't it seem that the Buck Vantage Pro would be the better choice in cost/performance ratio if one was looking at S30V blades?

 

[HwangJino]

I'm not sure how this would be happening if they're sharpened similarly; M390/CTS-204p is a solidly more wear resistant steel than CPM-S35VN. Are you sure you aren't running your Southard edge too thin? Do you run a wider micro-bevel? If your Sebenza is keeping it's edge longer than your Southard under similar use, something is wrong . . .

I tend to sharpen very wide bevels... However they are both convex edges and modified my angles for the type of steel.

Maybe I could make thicker edge for southard.

 

[geohans]

Related: New to knives, having only owned one Emerson Commander from 2007--I bought a CR Pacific.

A couple months later I took a Strider in on a pistol trade-- DB-L. It was a more suitable size for my intended use.

I sold the Strider within a day.

The CR Pacific had shown me what fit an finish really looked like, and felt like. The Striders have their place; the CRK just spoiled me.

I've decided to incorporate the CR Pacific into my system/setup, despite the fact that I'd rather have something a little shorter OAL. It's just too perfect. I took the factory wire off the edge, and it's now razor sharp. I've accepted the CR philosophy: balance between holding an edge and ease of sharpening.

Balance, ergos-- all incredible. So yes, CRK spoiled me for other knives.

 

[Gator97]

I think you misread me.

Alright, my bad

In my opinion it is unfair to make blanket statements about the "softness" of a particular manufacturer's heat treatment for a steel (any steel, not just S30V) without also making the same statements about other manufacturers.

Well, like I said, it also depends on the price. As it is, taking premium steel like S30V and HTing to the optimum costs more. HT itself is more expensive, grinding and sharpening costs more, more wear on the tools, etc. So, I am not surprised to see 40$ S30V knife at 57HRC, to some degree that's an achievement and a bargain. At the same time, from 400$+ knife I think I can expect top notch HT, and not so happy to hear about performance compromises.

Besides, without blanket statements, CRK was criticized more than one for choosing lower RC specs for their products. It was the same for One piece range where A2 steel was 55-57HRC, even tough A2 would've been better performer at 60(including toughness), for S30V 57-59, and S35VN 58-59HRC. Official explanation was that it's for the ease of sharpening, while sacrificing edge holding.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I've seen this tolerance level of CRK's given as Sebenza fans are happy to get down to 0.00001 precision. If I am correct, the closest tolerance is 1/10,000" which is 0.0001".
A long time ago, I worked as a machinist where we were producing stainless parts for some early space vehicles. We worked at a tolerance of +/- 0.0002". This seemed to suffice quite well. I sincerely doubt that precision greater than this is easily available, much less necessary, for Chris Reeve to produce his superior examples of precision and craftsmanship.
Yes, I really like his folders. Never a problem, despite having owned a goodly number of CRK examples in various models.
There are many nice folders out there, folks. We all make our choices, given various individual parameters.
Sonnydaze

 

[Jeru]

Sorry, I carry strictly tip-down and I really don't like hollow grinds

 

[Officer's Match]

I've had and sold a 25 (not a fan of the fingergrooves, lack of bushing and resultant need for locktite, asymmetrical stop pin, and need for two different allen wrenches), Small Sebenza (too small for me), and Mnandi (too small but very nice). I still have a Large Starbenza and a couple of Umnumzaan's. I much prefer the Zaan's ergos and blade shape. I carry a Zaan much more than the Sebenza.

 

[darkangel55555]

I thought about buying a Sebenza, but instead I bought 20 Moras.

I thought about buying a Sebenza, but instead I bought 20 Spydercos.

Then I bought a Sebenza. Then I bought 20 customs instead.

Just another gateway drug.