"The Top of The Pops" The Next Generation of Knife Steels

Windows 7 here myself, XP was kinda of like 98 (bullet proof) but back on topic. Jim, and others first let me thank you so much for what you continually bring to this forum especially on this topic and moreover the way in which you deliver. Courtesy and professional, kudos.

Although I think one poster commented on this I personally think the 800lb gorilla in the room is law of diminishing returns and to a lesser extent economies of scale as these economic principles hit both the consumer and the producer however diminishing return impacts consumer more and economies of scale plays more into the production side. These two economic principles combined with real world knife usage and the level of sophistication among knife enthusiast in general in my humble opinion are without question in the drivers seat when it comes to what we get, when we get it and in what quantity when it comes to these boutique steels.

Case in point I own both the Ontario Rat 1 and the Cold Steel American Lawman both constructed with AUS 8, however from what I understand CS does something different with their heat treat protocol which turns out a better grade of AUS 8. Through actually using these knives I have found this to be true, while I like both knives the Rat 1 simply will not stay razor sharp for very long, just after a little and I mean little work that razors edge has evaporated and your left with serviceable edge that will hang around for a couple 2 to 3 days of continued light use and then its time to resharpen. The Lawman will maintain that razor sharpness for a couple of days of light use and then for several more days like a week to perhaps 2 weeks of regular continued light use. Light use is defined by my standards as EDC, opening boxes, breaking down boxes, opening bags of grass seed, fertilizer, Ironite, cutting zip ties, etc. Both knives are AUS 8 but we have two different edge geometry's, two different grins FFG on rat 1 and what semi hollow on the lawman but we also have 2 different heat treat protocols. This would line up everything that Ank and others have been saying for quite sometime now.

These knives were bought because for their toughness as sometimes during use blades are torqued given my personally cutting requirements and ham handedness although not intentional, things like bumping the edge on something hard like metal grating does happen. I haven't tried some of these boutique steels due to concerns about brittleness, moreover due to location corrosion resistance trumps just about everything else.

Given that Ankerson could you please post a link to one of your recent threads about results of some of your testing I think many would find that helpful as you did a very thorough and fair job and really put it into layman's terms.

Also could you suggest for me your top 3 in relation to the best combinations of corrosion resistance, toughness and wear resistance and at what RC I should look for these steels?

Thank You
 
Sleipner is something I've heard of for a while now, and have yet to see any knives in the stuff. Who makes Sleipner blades, are any production, and what has real world testing proved to any of you who have tried it?

I still believe s90v or m390 would be hard to beat as far as a currently produced knife goes, though the only s90v blades I know of are either Limited sprints or otherwise well above my price range (That doesn't stop me from wanting them though!).
 
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cm_bushman said:
Sleipner is something I've heard of for a while now, and have yet to see any knives in the stuff. Who makes Sleipner blades, are any production, and what has real world testing proved to any of you who have tried it?
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http://www.bucanada.ca/sleipner_c.htm

Tests:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/826933-Legion-Reviews-amp-Testing-KnifeResearch
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/986699-Funny-tests-with-KR-Legion

The Lion Steel SR1 and the DPX fixed blades are made from sleipner to name a few
 
MikeC said:
Windows 7 here myself, XP was kinda of like 98 (bullet proof) but back on topic. Jim, and others first let me thank you so much for what you continually bring to this forum especially on this topic and moreover the way in which you deliver. Courtesy and professional, kudos.

Although I think one poster commented on this I personally think the 800lb gorilla in the room is law of diminishing returns and to a lesser extent economies of scale as these economic principles hit both the consumer and the producer however diminishing return impacts consumer more and economies of scale plays more into the production side. These two economic principles combined with real world knife usage and the level of sophistication among knife enthusiast in general in my humble opinion are without question in the drivers seat when it comes to what we get, when we get it and in what quantity when it comes to these boutique steels.

Case in point I own both the Ontario Rat 1 and the Cold Steel American Lawman both constructed with AUS 8, however from what I understand CS does something different with their heat treat protocol which turns out a better grade of AUS 8. Through actually using these knives I have found this to be true, while I like both knives the Rat 1 simply will not stay razor sharp for very long, just after a little and I mean little work that razors edge has evaporated and your left with serviceable edge that will hang around for a couple 2 to 3 days of continued light use and then its time to resharpen. The Lawman will maintain that razor sharpness for a couple of days of light use and then for several more days like a week to perhaps 2 weeks of regular continued light use. Light use is defined by my standards as EDC, opening boxes, breaking down boxes, opening bags of grass seed, fertilizer, Ironite, cutting zip ties, etc. Both knives are AUS 8 but we have two different edge geometry's, two different grins FFG on rat 1 and what semi hollow on the lawman but we also have 2 different heat treat protocols. This would line up everything that Ank and others have been saying for quite sometime now.

These knives were bought because for their toughness as sometimes during use blades are torqued given my personally cutting requirements and ham handedness although not intentional, things like bumping the edge on something hard like metal grating does happen. I haven't tried some of these boutique steels due to concerns about brittleness, moreover due to location corrosion resistance trumps just about everything else.

Given that Ankerson could you please post a link to one of your recent threads about results of some of your testing I think many would find that helpful as you did a very thorough and fair job and really put it into layman's terms.

Also could you suggest for me your top 3 in relation to the best combinations of corrosion resistance, toughness and wear resistance and at what RC I should look for these steels?

Thank You
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CPM S110V

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/864950-Phil-Wilson-Custom-in-CPM-S110V-full-test


K294 (A11)

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wilson-Bow-River-in-K294-Full-Review-and-test

CPM 154

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Phil-Wilson-Shelter-Cove-Custom-Fillet-knife


Also could you suggest for me your top 3 in relation to the best combinations of corrosion resistance, toughness and wear resistance and at what RC I should look for these steels?
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I would say CPM S110V 62-63 HRC

M390 at 61-62 HRC

CPM S90V at 60-61 HRC


Also ELMAX, CPM 154, and CTS-XHP.
 
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CPM D2 is alive and well at Niagara Specialty Metals. We sell it directly from our mill and we can get plenty more if needed from Crucible Industries. SB Specialty might still have some left as well.
 
Cardiackid said:
I wish I knew what all you "steel geeks" do with your knives that you need such high performance. I go camping about 6 weekends a year and sometimes spend 10 days in the summer camping in Colorado. I occasionally hunt deer or feral pigs and more frequently upland birds. Most of the rest of the time my knives are used for very mundane activities like cutting zip ties and opening letters. I have never found any of my knives with "mediocre" S30V and below steels lacking or the job. I do, occasionally like to order a knife with one of the newer super steels, just because, but I really can't say that I see any big advantage over my old trusty Uncle Henry, when performing day to day tasks. Then again, you never know when you might need to cut 50 feet of rope into 1 inch segments.
Of course this lack of understanding is probably due to my advanced age. One day, my son asked me how fast my car would go. When I told him I had no idea, he looked at me like I was from outer space. Just like I don't know how many one inch strips of cardboard my knives will cut before needing sharpening, I will never need to find out.
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While I completely share your point of view, I have also come to recognize that different people view knives and enjoy the knife "hobby" in different ways.

Some people just look at a knife as a simple tool and as long as it does what they require then they are happy.

While other people really get into the technical specifics of various steels, how they perform, carbide content, etc, etc.

It's like cars, some people just enjoy a nice looking car and going for a ride, while others want to know the exact horsepower, torque, piston size, etc, etc.

To each there own.

When I object is when people try to tell other people "Your knife really isn't a good one." or "Your knife doesn't really perform well." or "The steel your knife is made of is inferior to other steels". I say that these are all subjective issues and relateable only to ones own personal needs and experience.
 
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The Mastiff said:
Big Mike, ...You are a knifemaker . What's your feeling about that? I'm curious.
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It's a very hard call for me, I do like the toothyness of D2 when it comes to a hunting/skinning knife.

As I like a good toothy S30V blade.


The question is what does a finer grain structure in D2 bring to the table.

And, as suggested, does it negate the quality many of use love in D2.




Big Mike
 
Big Mike said:
The question is what does a finer grain structure in D2 bring to the table.
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I confess I haven't tested this exhaustively, but the whole point of powder metallurgy in general is an increase in toughness and general edge-holding. I can't tell that the few CPM-D2 blades I've ground are really any less "toothy" than regular D2 at the same level of edge finish; you still have the same types and amount of carbides, they're just distributed more evenly.

They can definitely look nicer... "plain" D2 looks simply awful with any sort of fine finish. Whether or not that matters is entirely up to the user.

Having said all that, I can't justify the extra expense of CPM-D2, and see no real reason to stock it or regular D2 in my shop. Is it junk? Of course not! One of my favorite factory knives is a Queen MM lockback in D2, and it's served me well for several years. But at those price points there are plenty of other choices with equal or better edge-holding, toughness, corrosion-resistance, machineability and polishability.
 
What about Talonite? How does it compare to s90v, K294, etc.? I know it commands a premium, and that it's corrosion resistance is above anything a stainless steel can offer (except maybe H1), but otherwise, such as in terms of wear resistance, edge-holding, and toughness, how does it stack up?
 
cm_bushman said:
What about Talonite? How does it compare to s90v, K294, etc.? I know it commands a premium, and that it's corrosion resistance is above anything a stainless steel can offer (except maybe H1), but otherwise, such as in terms of wear resistance, edge-holding, and toughness, how does it stack up?
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Talonite or Stellite is too soft to work well as a standard blade material. (High 40s to low 50s HRC.)
The edge will fold when cutting harder materials.
It is suppose to be a great slicer though because of high amount of carbides.
Stellite/Talonite doesn't compare with s90v, k294, etc.

If you want a blade material that is hard and very corrosion resistant you should look at SM-100. (Low 60s HRC.)
 
I can never really see myself needing more than cpm154 in my folders, or 52100 in smallish fixed blades
That does not mean i will stop looking for something more efficient though
I really want one of those m390 blades in something like a mini-grip
 
chiral.grolim said:
ELMAX impact toughness is certainly much better than 440C at the same hardness, but you are still looking at only ~30 J/cm^2 with an un-notched non-standard test sample. A2 pushes impact toughness above 50 J/cm^2, CPM-3V reaches ~100 J/cm^2, and A9, S7, and INFI reach ~150 J/cm^2!
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Some very interesting numbers indeed...
Please give a reference for the measurement of INFI.
 
Haffner said:
Some very interesting numbers indeed...
Please give a reference for the measurement of INFI.
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The INFI reference value comes from Moletta of Nexus Knives and www.kniferesearch.com, also discussed in this thread (pages 9-10), with another reference HERE.
It'd be nice if Busse would release an official Charpy value for each of their steels, but since what really matters is performance in use they may never bother, sticking to live & video demonstrations instead, which is what most sellers rely on anyway... at least until their reputation makes it unnecessary. :p *shrug*


On another note, what element would make a better matrix base for knife construction compared to iron? If Stellite & Talonite which use cobalt are too soft (similar to titanium), what might be better options? Anyone know of other elements being tested for this purpose now?
 
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chiral.grolim said:
On another note, what element would make a better matrix base for knife construction compared to iron? Stellite & Talonite use cobalt, but I've read that they are too soft for a thin edge, similar to titanium? Or is that incorrect?
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Interesting question. There's SM-100 which is 60% nickel and 40% titanium and able to reach hardnesses of 65HRC but I believe the manufacturer (Summit) advises ~62HRC.

I'm very interested to hear about more "unobtanium" blade materials. :D
 
I too have heard some smatterings of sm-100 and a couple other NiTiNOL60 variants, but since first reading up on the stuff in 2009 or so, I've only seen a few knives in the stuff, and nothing in the way of reviews and comparisons but marketing hype from distributors. I even read that Sal was considering it in a sprint, probably a mule, but that seems to have fizzled. From a few accounts I don't trust, I've heard it's got good toughness with edge holding around that of ELMAX, which would put it in great company. Rust would not be a concern of course, and toughness is purported to be good to great, even better than ELMAX. Of course, SM-100 is strictly a custom blade material, and since it'd be so hard to find and some would have to go into perfecting HT and grinding, it would be much more expensive than even s90v by my reckoning. I'd like for Ankerson to get his testing hands on one to really see how it stacks up edge retention wise, and a few examples get to some of the more respected members here for a good long-term assesment of the stuff for knives. Until then, I'm casting a doubtful but hopeful eye at the stuff to at least give some interesting results, even if it doesn't "revolutionize" the knife industry. It sure can't hurt, look at all the "supersteels" that have failed to make a big splash except with maybe a few thousand buyers put together but have pushed knives so far in the last decade, and even half that time.

I'm not sure if there is a widely available element around that can out-knife iron, I've seen a few now (Talonite, Titanium, Ceramic) that have come up, and while having their merits and "space-age, revolutionary technology" marketing appeal, nothing that I know of can beat a good quality current-gen steel (think ELMAX) as a complete package. Titanium alloys give a guarantee against rust, and good toughness (not better than some steels, mind), aren't giving you the superior working hardness, the stability at these levels of hardness nor the fine-grain carbides of current PM steels, and so can't match them in edge-holding. All this at a high price for a far more limited natural resource. This rust resistance and acceptable edge retention is a boon to divers and dock workers (who want to pay for a Ti knife instead of a far more easily had H1 knife, though I'll not get into that), but for this attribute, of interest to a small subset of a miniscule consumer base (users willing to pay for a $150+ knife), you trade edge-holding, which I believe is important to every knife, because after all, they're all made to cut things.

Talonite sounds better from what I could turn up, since it's not necessarily as expensive as Titanium as a raw material, and so it's cheaper while giving all of the benefits like being nigh-impervious to rust and being acceptably tough (and more), while giving edge retention up there with some very good steels (I've heard accounts of s30v levels of edge holding and up, though a peculiar form of it). Again, however, Talonite and Stellite fall short of steels in the hardness department. Though they are tough and can hold an edge against softer materials, edges will roll in abrasive media that a current-gen steel like a 3V or INFI would make short work of with equal or better impact toughness. Nickel is also poisonous, but I'm not sure if that's really a concern to the user, though it may possibly increase safety measures and therefor price in a production setting.

Lastly, ceramic (usually Zirconium Oxide) is at the other end of the spectrum. I've seen a Ceramic knife (a Boker, no less) cut onto stainless steel counters all day and come away smiling. (the counter was another matter) Due to their insane hardness, they have mondo edge retention and will of course never rust, not even being a metal. This is given away for toughness however, and like many examples of ceramic common to most of us, like dinner plates, they will chip and break more easily than a steel knife. This isn't to say they don't have a place, especially in a fast-paced, sometimes very demanding professional kitchen setting where the lack of sharpening or corrosion worries would be greatly appreciated. Today's ceramics have even improved the toughness of their blades, making them more viable than ever.

Those are the biggest players in the alternative knife-blade material market as I see them. I can think of a few alloying elements I would like to see or see more of in knives today, (like Nitrogen; it sure did great in INFI--allegedly of course--and in a completely separate way, H1) but that's on top of good ol' iron. This is all very interesting though, so I'll try and look into the metallurgical mire and see if anything looks promising. As of now, I can't think of anything that can outdo steel, especially when price becomes a concern. The availability of iron is unmatched, (the fourth most abundant element in Earth's crust, after all), and when you consider all of the research and development that has already went into understanding and working with it over the last thousand or so, it's easy to see why and how it has became the optimal material so far.

What do you guys think of these or any other promising alternate blade materials? I admit, I sort of dismiss them whenever I hear of them. I guess I've become disenchanted... either that or I'm just conservatively biased in that way.
 
Can't say much about the sm-100 but have been hearing about the NiTiNOL 60 off and on for several years now. Even had one person claim to have actually handled a prototype knife made out of it, supposedly the stuff was made back in the late 50's or 60's for the Navy looking into dive knife materials. I don't remember the whole story but for some reason they scraped it. Now I did have on very good authority from a very reliable source that about 4 years ago there was an ingot of a special batch of titanium floating around from the SR71 blackbird project back in the 60's. Allegedly this ingot had been heat treated to somewhere near the high 50's RC and was still not brittle as supposdedly when Ti is heat treated beyond a certain RC say somewhere around 47 to 50 it becomes brittle. I'm not a materials engineer I just play one on bladeforums and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night either so take this for what you will.

A knife company that most here know about attempted to acquire the special ingot of titanium but was apparently late to the party and now know one knows where it went or for what, so who knows maybe one day some blades of this stuff will pop up. I'd say this if you could get a titanium knife at 58-59RC, you would have something. Probably still not hold an edge quite like some of the other stuff already spoke about in this thread but the damn thing would just about be indestructible.
 
Neo said:
That's why I suggested Sleipner to rustyrazor.
D2 with two times the toughness.
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and I thank you both.. Great info Neo. that's the part i'm trying to figure out between the "best" steels for my applications. I knew M390 held a better edge and had better corrosion resistance than Elmax, but thought Elmax was tougher from my reading, that's why i chose to order Elmax to trial... Tell me i'm wrong, i'm glad to order whatever makes the best product for my customer. I had never heard of Selipner until this thread (great... something else to research, lol) My main priorities for my combat utility knives are toughness/strength, then corrosion resistance and ability to resharpen come ahead of edge holding, as all of these steels will hold all the edge anyone could "need" My opinion is every knife dulls when used for "rough" work, but if a soldier can't resharpen it in the field, i dont want to sell it to him. If you were to pick the one (of these 3) to make a knife, which would it be? 3V is going to be my non stainless steel of choice... i have decided that a long while ago because of it's properties, but i'm still on the fence and expiramenting with the stainless that is out there.
 
rustyrazor said:
and I thank you both.. Great info Neo. that's the part i'm trying to figure out between the "best" steels for my applications. I knew M390 held a better edge and had better corrosion resistance than Elmax, but thought Elmax was tougher from my reading, that's why i chose to order Elmax to trial... Tell me i'm wrong, i'm glad to order whatever makes the best product for my customer. I had never heard of Selipner until this thread (great... something else to research, lol) My main priorities for my combat utility knives are toughness/strength, then corrosion resistance and ability to resharpen come ahead of edge holding, as all of these steels will hold all the edge anyone could "need" My opinion is every knife dulls when used for "rough" work, but if a soldier can't resharpen it in the field, i dont want to sell it to him. If you were to pick the one (of these 3) to make a knife, which would it be? 3V is going to be my non stainless steel of choice... i have decided that a long while ago because of it's properties, but i'm still on the fence and expiramenting with the stainless that is out there.
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If you feel they can sharpen 3V in the field steels like ELMAX and M390 won't be an issue either.
 
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