I have seen this trend on several forums I frequent. They way I feel, is that negative harsh criticism may discourage, constructive criticism helps us to improve, and false compliments and back patting simply breed complacency and the attitude that it's good enough. We see the prison shank style knife and rather than offer positive criticism to make it better we always just see " looks good, way to go". Nobody ends up with hurt feelings, but nobody gets that push or advice to make the next one better. There are also the ones who do not want any advice, or won't even listen if they did ask for it, much like the infamous 2x4 knife fiasco. Personally I think the best way to avoid this is to simply encourage posters to state what they are looking for when they post. If you want opinions, state that feedback and opinions are welcome. If it's good you will get atta boys, and if it's not, you will get advice on what to do better. If you are only interested in possibly unearned high fives just let us know.
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The virtues of informed criticism
- Thread starter ptgdvc
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- Oct 29, 2013
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- 763
Informed criticism should be welcomed and praised. If the community doesn't appreciate the knowledge and experience that it takes to critique the products we're all interested in, the value of the community drops tremendously. I always try and do a checklist.
1- Is this criticism truly informed. Would I/Someone else be a good source of information for this? Are there better candidates available?
2- Is the criticism so controversial that worthwhile discussion cannot be made?
3- Is the audience appropriate?
4- Is there value in the findings?
5- Is the information already widespread or is the findings redundant?
6- Considering everything else, is it a worthy expenditure of time
I do think that anonymity hinders valuable discussion on many topics, hobbies being one of them (some topics like religion and politics are very rarely discussed in a productive manner even when all parties disclose their identities). Competing interests hurts informed discussion. Bias and subjective reasoning that the biased party doesn't identify will stop informed discussion in its tracks. Unreasonable expectations can hinder informed discussion.
Environment and the attitude of parties involved is still the most important part of having a valuable discussion. Not all comments have to be positive. There are no perfect products, and if you have not found something you dislike or think could be improved about a specific product, you probably do not have enough experience with that particular product, do not have a deep frame of reference when it comes to competing products, or are affected by bias. However, I don't know if this is a good place to offer criticism to custom makers after they reach a certain point in their careers. I have found that most very successful business people though (custom or production business alike) are more likely to be able to accept criticism for what it is - an isolated viewpoint that is usually based on a dramatically small sample size, is independent of the design's intent or other manufacturing considerations, and even for the most objective observers is almost always going to include some sort of bias (could be your hands are small and you prefer a product that caters to that, or it could be an affinity for a competing product). That doesn't mean there isn't any value to it - it's just not realistically a primary concern for someone that satisfies hundreds or thousands of customers every year and has a complete understanding of the design's intent and the processes included in taking that product from concept to retail (unless your criticism suggests a problem with a larger cross section of their customer base). They also can identify the 'uninformed' type of criticism, and have enough experience to know how to handle those kind of remarks. For example, if I told Sharp by Coop that his pictures were not good because the lighting, he would know pretty quick that I am ignorant about lighting, but would probably either disregard the ignorant comment or reply in a friendly manner. However if I had a valid criticism with a specific example, it usually benefits someone like Coop that is successful enough to be confident and experienced enough to understand criticism for what it is in each particular instance.
There really isn't a reason why we all couldn't evaluate a custom maker's knife objectively in a public forum like this - it could be a very valuable source of input for a knife maker. However, there is a lot of stock put into cultivated reputations, and a lot of people would identify a round robin critique as proof of weakness (which is a shame because the resultant products would a the very least be interesting, and could very well be some of the best knives ever developed). I also find it more distasteful given the relationship of custom makers that run their own sub forums here to critique the knife that a small time custom maker creates. The percentage of users that will buy a fully custom knife is lower than those that will buy production knives, the small time custom maker will have more to lose from a bad PR, and the custom maker likely gives a lot back to the community - and deserves our support more unconditionally than a production company. With the production company, more value can be gained from informed critique because more people are looking at purchasing those knives, can expand the sample size more readily, and the large company has a good perspective about the insignificance of a critical statement.
I do know many users here that I feel like I can have productive discussions with. I do feel like criticism of any kind is discouraged here, is often taken too personally by parties with no identifiable vested interest in the subject of said criticism, and it degrades the value in the long run. I also think that much of the discouragement probably stems from the kind of criticism that is uninformed (people get used to striking down baseless complaints, and soon can't discern legitimate and objective criticism from rambling or trolling). A good first step would be to encourage the kind of criticism that is informed though - by everyone involved. You're not going to like everything you read and sometimes your mileage will vary, but I think you'll find that you will get an understanding of other people's perceptions (something we as humans are incapable of doing alone) and you'll improve your personal ability to understand the craft and the way products interact and are received by the public.
I hope there is more informed discussion and critiques in the future here, and I personally support anybody that has the ability to remain objective, the knowledge to be considered informed, and the dedication to put in the time it takes to offer a viable and complete critique on anything I'm interested in.
1- Is this criticism truly informed. Would I/Someone else be a good source of information for this? Are there better candidates available?
2- Is the criticism so controversial that worthwhile discussion cannot be made?
3- Is the audience appropriate?
4- Is there value in the findings?
5- Is the information already widespread or is the findings redundant?
6- Considering everything else, is it a worthy expenditure of time
I do think that anonymity hinders valuable discussion on many topics, hobbies being one of them (some topics like religion and politics are very rarely discussed in a productive manner even when all parties disclose their identities). Competing interests hurts informed discussion. Bias and subjective reasoning that the biased party doesn't identify will stop informed discussion in its tracks. Unreasonable expectations can hinder informed discussion.
Environment and the attitude of parties involved is still the most important part of having a valuable discussion. Not all comments have to be positive. There are no perfect products, and if you have not found something you dislike or think could be improved about a specific product, you probably do not have enough experience with that particular product, do not have a deep frame of reference when it comes to competing products, or are affected by bias. However, I don't know if this is a good place to offer criticism to custom makers after they reach a certain point in their careers. I have found that most very successful business people though (custom or production business alike) are more likely to be able to accept criticism for what it is - an isolated viewpoint that is usually based on a dramatically small sample size, is independent of the design's intent or other manufacturing considerations, and even for the most objective observers is almost always going to include some sort of bias (could be your hands are small and you prefer a product that caters to that, or it could be an affinity for a competing product). That doesn't mean there isn't any value to it - it's just not realistically a primary concern for someone that satisfies hundreds or thousands of customers every year and has a complete understanding of the design's intent and the processes included in taking that product from concept to retail (unless your criticism suggests a problem with a larger cross section of their customer base). They also can identify the 'uninformed' type of criticism, and have enough experience to know how to handle those kind of remarks. For example, if I told Sharp by Coop that his pictures were not good because the lighting, he would know pretty quick that I am ignorant about lighting, but would probably either disregard the ignorant comment or reply in a friendly manner. However if I had a valid criticism with a specific example, it usually benefits someone like Coop that is successful enough to be confident and experienced enough to understand criticism for what it is in each particular instance.
There really isn't a reason why we all couldn't evaluate a custom maker's knife objectively in a public forum like this - it could be a very valuable source of input for a knife maker. However, there is a lot of stock put into cultivated reputations, and a lot of people would identify a round robin critique as proof of weakness (which is a shame because the resultant products would a the very least be interesting, and could very well be some of the best knives ever developed). I also find it more distasteful given the relationship of custom makers that run their own sub forums here to critique the knife that a small time custom maker creates. The percentage of users that will buy a fully custom knife is lower than those that will buy production knives, the small time custom maker will have more to lose from a bad PR, and the custom maker likely gives a lot back to the community - and deserves our support more unconditionally than a production company. With the production company, more value can be gained from informed critique because more people are looking at purchasing those knives, can expand the sample size more readily, and the large company has a good perspective about the insignificance of a critical statement.
I do know many users here that I feel like I can have productive discussions with. I do feel like criticism of any kind is discouraged here, is often taken too personally by parties with no identifiable vested interest in the subject of said criticism, and it degrades the value in the long run. I also think that much of the discouragement probably stems from the kind of criticism that is uninformed (people get used to striking down baseless complaints, and soon can't discern legitimate and objective criticism from rambling or trolling). A good first step would be to encourage the kind of criticism that is informed though - by everyone involved. You're not going to like everything you read and sometimes your mileage will vary, but I think you'll find that you will get an understanding of other people's perceptions (something we as humans are incapable of doing alone) and you'll improve your personal ability to understand the craft and the way products interact and are received by the public.
I hope there is more informed discussion and critiques in the future here, and I personally support anybody that has the ability to remain objective, the knowledge to be considered informed, and the dedication to put in the time it takes to offer a viable and complete critique on anything I'm interested in.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
Wow to infinity squared.
Through very no-hold-barred discussion with Jim Cooper, Matt Diskin, Peter Gill, Roger Pinnock, Joe Paranee and many others, several salient points come to the fore:
1. You should talk on the web like you do in person, I think I do in general, Joseph and Coop have disagreed, so there has been an attempt to change that.
2. If you are just doing it to amuse yourself, don't. If you have something of value to add, do it. Sometimes offline is the better choice.
3, I believe as a collector that helping a maker to improve is a duty, and it does come with responsiblity. That responsibility is to be fair, honest and to-the-point.
4. Makers and collectors tend to get all butthurt when the e-opinions get laid out. I have a lot of thoughts on this, but will break it down into four camps(with a champion) of thought from my perspective:
a. You have collectors like Joseph Paranee who have an agenda, stick to it and say "I like it" if they say anything at all. These are men of action and few words. Joseph and I have discussed this over many years, face to face.
b. you have collectors like Peter Gill who exert extremely high influence to makers, but behind the scenes. There are many makers who have benfitted from Peter Gill's observations and opinions.
c. You have collectors like Roger Pinnock who not only write about knives, collect knives, but actually make knives. IMO, these are the guys to listen to, IF you can get them to open up.
d. You have collectors like me. I write, collect, eat, sleep and poop(OUCH!) knives. I currently work in the industry, and I never stop learning. My bedside manner is brusque and unapologetically abrasive. It isn't because I like being a big meannie just don't register it. It's an opinion, it carries(unfortunately) some weight and I continue to work on it. Post less due to time, rather than anything else.
ABOVE ALL....take a moment, breathe, and post with a clear head!!!!!
Happy Holidays....love to the lovers, hate to the haters, yo!
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Through very no-hold-barred discussion with Jim Cooper, Matt Diskin, Peter Gill, Roger Pinnock, Joe Paranee and many others, several salient points come to the fore:
1. You should talk on the web like you do in person, I think I do in general, Joseph and Coop have disagreed, so there has been an attempt to change that.
2. If you are just doing it to amuse yourself, don't. If you have something of value to add, do it. Sometimes offline is the better choice.
3, I believe as a collector that helping a maker to improve is a duty, and it does come with responsiblity. That responsibility is to be fair, honest and to-the-point.
4. Makers and collectors tend to get all butthurt when the e-opinions get laid out. I have a lot of thoughts on this, but will break it down into four camps(with a champion) of thought from my perspective:
a. You have collectors like Joseph Paranee who have an agenda, stick to it and say "I like it" if they say anything at all. These are men of action and few words. Joseph and I have discussed this over many years, face to face.
b. you have collectors like Peter Gill who exert extremely high influence to makers, but behind the scenes. There are many makers who have benfitted from Peter Gill's observations and opinions.
c. You have collectors like Roger Pinnock who not only write about knives, collect knives, but actually make knives. IMO, these are the guys to listen to, IF you can get them to open up.
d. You have collectors like me. I write, collect, eat, sleep and poop(OUCH!) knives. I currently work in the industry, and I never stop learning. My bedside manner is brusque and unapologetically abrasive. It isn't because I like being a big meannie just don't register it. It's an opinion, it carries(unfortunately) some weight and I continue to work on it. Post less due to time, rather than anything else.
ABOVE ALL....take a moment, breathe, and post with a clear head!!!!!
Happy Holidays....love to the lovers, hate to the haters, yo!
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2001
- Messages
- 12,336
And so I have. New prefix wished in Custom and Handmade forum.
I think this might be a small but surprisingly effective step towards education. However, I am one member, one voice. If you agree with me, you ought to post in THAT forum and say so.
#######
^^^^ Very well thought out responses from others. This topic draws out the passion in a good way. :thumbup:
Coop
Ebbtide
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 1999
- Messages
- 7,948
Just some thoughts…
I participate at another forum that has a photography sub forum.
If the person wants CC (constructive criticism) they put "CC" or "CC Welcome" in their sig line.
I don't know if that would work here, but figured I'd throw it out there.
There, the intent of CC isn't personal, it is about the piece.
Not the maker, not the genre, not the equipment used to make it.
The words "you" as well as the word "I" tend to make the CC personal.
CC should come from the view of help and betterment.
It is easy to wave your opinion around (whether it applies, is wanted/warranted or not)
It is easy to tear down.
It is easy to argue.
Let's not take the easy way out.
Like STeven said:
I participate at another forum that has a photography sub forum.
If the person wants CC (constructive criticism) they put "CC" or "CC Welcome" in their sig line.
I don't know if that would work here, but figured I'd throw it out there.
There, the intent of CC isn't personal, it is about the piece.
Not the maker, not the genre, not the equipment used to make it.
The words "you" as well as the word "I" tend to make the CC personal.
CC should come from the view of help and betterment.
It is easy to wave your opinion around (whether it applies, is wanted/warranted or not)
It is easy to tear down.
It is easy to argue.
Let's not take the easy way out.
Like STeven said:
While I feel that the changing of thread prefixes is a good idea and would likely serve the purpose well, I honestly don't see why this couldn't be handled by proper manners. If a maker welcomes commentary and critique, it's simple to post a sentence stating such. Otherwise posters should practice what their parents should've taught them. Show respect and refrain from critiquing unless it is welcomed. No one is entitled to speak their opinion just because something is posted on the internet.
The_Iron_Joe
Knifemaker, Jeweller. Custom Books Open!
- Joined
- May 3, 2012
- Messages
- 1,091
In my experiences, one major thing I've learned is that, in any online community, there are some people who will require constant reminders in order to be polite, even though it is possible to be constructive without being negative, while being considerate. People can and do interact with others in a very self-important way; whether this is due to a lack of consideration or care is a toss-up.
Basically, I don't think relying on people's probable proper manners is a viable option on the internet. On the other hand, if one is polite about it, one can get away with saying just about anything.
Willie71
Warren J. Krywko
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2013
- Messages
- 12,214
As a newer member, I have seen this forum as a bit elitist. That is not a criticism. I think this is where the best is shown, and I have no delusions that my work is ready to post here. Each knife I make, I ask myself, is this the one I can post in the customs forum? I know where each one needs to improve and don't want to waste anyone's time here. I would expect a critique here, and when I think I have a cleanly made knife, I will post it for feedback to learn about what I don't know I don't know.
Kohai999 said:
It is also against the rules. Rules I'm sure that you've been here long enough to understand.
If one blatantly breaks said rules, they have no reason to complain when they reap the rewards of their actions.
Regarding your quoted material above: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/faq.php?faq=faq_infractions_lists#faq_faq_infractions_sassin
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
Bunch of hogwash, that.
You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is....another opinion.....and you are entitled to speak it....lucky for you.
If we were not able to speak our opinions in forums on the internet, forums would be relatively pointless.
You are entitled to your opinion about this, but your opinion is not law, and it is not even particularly germane to this s/f.
You don't collect custom knives, you don't make them, and afaik, you don't even have much knowledge about them.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
Peter-
So what needs to be done around here, in your opinion, to wake the forum from its "banal coma"???
I'm not criticizing your post, I am genuinely asking.
IMHO, the key here is constructive criticism. It can help a maker to understand/see/be aware of, things he or she may not have otherwise considered.
Some makers, myself included, are interested in that. Some just want a pat on the back.
However, there are always guys who don't seem to understand the difference between constructive criticism and just being rude.
As a maker myself, I'm pretty much removed from this type of thing, because openly criticizing another maker's work is almost always considered taboo.
What Lorien posted hit home for me, as I'm guilty of bringing up "the good 'ol days" in ShopTalk, which never gets anywhere and never changes anything. So rather than reminisce about what was, I have been trying to do what I can to stay involved in what's happening now.
So what needs to be done around here, in your opinion, to wake the forum from its "banal coma"???
I'm not criticizing your post, I am genuinely asking.
IMHO, the key here is constructive criticism. It can help a maker to understand/see/be aware of, things he or she may not have otherwise considered.
Some makers, myself included, are interested in that. Some just want a pat on the back.
However, there are always guys who don't seem to understand the difference between constructive criticism and just being rude.
As a maker myself, I'm pretty much removed from this type of thing, because openly criticizing another maker's work is almost always considered taboo.
What Lorien posted hit home for me, as I'm guilty of bringing up "the good 'ol days" in ShopTalk, which never gets anywhere and never changes anything. So rather than reminisce about what was, I have been trying to do what I can to stay involved in what's happening now.
The Amazing Virginian
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2010
- Messages
- 9,881
Of course I could not agree more.
Then why don't they just post the pictures and then immediately close the thread for comments? Problem solved!!!
See, maybe I am just a cynical jerk (who am I kidding - of COURSE I am), but I think there are some folks who are looking for comments. So long as they are all "atta boys" as you call them. But maybe they are not all that eager to receive any other less than gushing comments.
If that is the way folks want to run things here . . . not my forum. But let's call it as it is. If someone just wants to show a knife, and nothing more than that, then it is very easy to do. And almost NEVER actually done.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Messages
- 2,369
We need a new unmoderated forum that everyone enters at their own risk. I am not holding my breath.
Some of you seem to be missing the point a little.
It all boils down to "courtesy".....
Something now so rare in this day and age that like common sense, it ought to be classified as a "superpower".
Just because picture of a knife are posted does not automatically invite critique by any critic, self appointed or otherwise.
Common Sense and Courtesy would dictate that the critic first be informed enough to speak. They then should consider how to respectfully and courteously get their points across without being demeaning, abrasive or otherwise harmful to the knifemakers efforts or business. (something which has been severely lacking in past efforts). They should be succinct and to the point, yes.....but should also be choosing their words carefully, so as to mitigate any hard feelings on the part of the one being critiqued. Any commentary should also follow the same guidelines, possibly with an "opinion" classifier added.
It all boils down to "courtesy".....
Something now so rare in this day and age that like common sense, it ought to be classified as a "superpower".
Just because picture of a knife are posted does not automatically invite critique by any critic, self appointed or otherwise.
Common Sense and Courtesy would dictate that the critic first be informed enough to speak. They then should consider how to respectfully and courteously get their points across without being demeaning, abrasive or otherwise harmful to the knifemakers efforts or business. (something which has been severely lacking in past efforts). They should be succinct and to the point, yes.....but should also be choosing their words carefully, so as to mitigate any hard feelings on the part of the one being critiqued. Any commentary should also follow the same guidelines, possibly with an "opinion" classifier added.
So, basically go back to everyone doing as they pleased without regard to manners, courtesy..... or rules.
Wise not to hold your breath. It's not going to happen.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Messages
- 2,369
Maybe my Platinum membership renewal isn't going to happen either.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Messages
- 2,369
That is your prerogative.
Thank you so kindly, for pointing out the obvious.
Anyone still interested in discussing the original topic?
- Status