The virtues of informed criticism

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Bladeplay74 said:
I'm with Joe. I really don't want to see any blood spilt over this thread.

Karda, you are free to post what you will, both as a moderator and as a knife enthusiast. But it strikes me that you only post here to fan flames and rarely do so otherwise. People in law enforcement are trained first and foremost in de-escalation. I think your conscientiousness with regards to makers feelings is commendable. As a super mod, I think it's unseemly to juggle your roles across or within each post you've made here. This thread had a lot of potential. Lets not derail it with this blending of roles.

Many people outside the ABS post to this forum with great success, and many mastersmiths still learn something every day from them. The community makes the forum, not the other way around.

Seth
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I've posted here quite a few times without moderating or fanning anyones flames.
That being said, even though in my other capacity I'm affiliated with a maker of handmade and sometimes custom knives, it has been made abundantly clear to me that my input in any form in this forum is unwelcome. Therefore I only usually post when something needs moderating or I have something that is productive to a discussion.

I don't feel it's unseemly at all for me to post as a member and as a moderator. I usually make the distinction clear.
What would be unseemly is for me to ignore transgressions because I am participating as a member.
Those that do not wish me to have to moderate should really be looking to place blame with the transgressor, not the one tasked with upholding the rules. If one does not wish to be moderated, the best course of action is to read, understand and follow the rules. It's each members responsibility to read them and follow them.

How about we not make this about me and discuss the topic?
 
Karda I am sorry if you do not feel welcome here that I believe is no ones wish

At least not mine

Some one please post a link to Coops thread suggesting the option to choose comments

This I think will go along way in reaching an amicable resolution to this matter
 
betzner said:
Just to let you know, I value everyone's opinion. Your opinion is just that, yours. You can use it as you wish. It's not about what you say or think, it's about how you go about it. So go for it, but realize I'll always value my opinion on it more than yours.

Best,

Bob
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It's very pretty, Bob, no question the handle is a masterpiece but it doesn't take a genius to see the hamon is not real. Do you think the blade is hardened?
 
David Stifle said:
It's very pretty, Bob, no question the handle is a masterpiece but it doesn't take a genius to see the hamon is not real. Do you think the blade is hardened?
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You are way off topic, so take it to my thread or private (glad to discuss there), but suggest you do not clutter this thread with comments about something other than the topics they are currently dealing with.
 
I think everyone agrees that a lively debate or heated discussion about things is a far cry from beating some guy up about a knife he made. If someone said " If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" I missed it, that's not what we're talking about here. I think that all opinions are equally valuable. The point is, everyone should be treated respectfully. When name calling and harsh language come into it, I for one disregard everything else that that person has to say. We should all have the ability to share our thoughts about any given subject without treating a person poorly.
 
Karda said:
I myself prefer not to comment on someone elses hard work. I may comment sometimes if I like something, but if I don't, I prefer to keep my OPINION to myself. I think all here have graduated from high school at least, so the concept of education and study should not be foreign to them. Nor should the concept of manners, etiquette, politeness or grammar be foreign.
All should by now have a grasp of these things, and a moderator should not have to specifically spell out just exactly should be said or not said.

I think it was stated pretty well here anyways: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...of-informed-criticism?p=12938507#post12938507
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Oh Boy.....I'm not reading all the posts, maybe later, but it seems to me that when knifemakers post their work for sale, that is the ultimate criticism. I think and I know it's a rule, that you don't comment on the fact....that some knives are....how can I say it....not worth near what the knifemaker thinks...but then again that's his business and the market will either bear that out or not. In the knife makers "for sale" area I think, other than pretty mild "suggestions", that anything more than mild criticisms should be left to the market.

What ya'll want to do in the cutom knifemakers discussion forum....well that's between ya'll. I guess. He who is without sin, cast the first stone. So to speak....

Dang, I think I'm gonna get some popcorn and read the next few pages. This is getting good....
 
David Stifle said:
When it comes down to it, I will always place STeven's opinions as most honest.
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Thanks David, I'm glad that if nothing else, you have a strong opinion about what I say. That's cool.

LOTS of Forumites have very honest opinions. I am definitely NOT the "most honest".

Let's talk about this a little, and tie it into Peter's intention with this thread.

I grew up poor....food stamp poor, hand-me-down clothes poor. Education was a focus in my family and I have a decent education.....have not been poor since high school....I work really hard too, and have since I had a paper route when I was 11.

So a strong work ethic is something I value, as well as creativity and craftsmanship.

Objectivity is a requirement as a journalist or a true critic, but it is NOT required when you have stated numerous times your preferences and life experiences that inform your opinions, and you are doing the critique because you enjoy the subject matter and have some solid experience with it.

I want sweat equity. If I am working for $11.50 an hour doing hard manual labor, it seems fair that a knifemaker should put in a reasonable amount of time and effort making my knife to the best of their ability when it took a full week of work or more to pay for the piece.

This is considering the numerous variables....tooling, electricity, time away from family........I understand it.

My opinions on the forums are expressed from the perspective of a) would I buy it, b) how much would I pay for it, c) can I see the vision of the maker, did they achieve what they hoped to? Art and craft collide on the handmade knife. A lot of makers simply can not see that. It tooks months for me to explain to Jim Siska why his knifemaking was art. He is craft-focused.

My thoughts are very knifemaker friendly....I speak the language, and truly understand what it takes to make a knife for a living.....that said, it always comes back to a superior product and sweat equity.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
betzner said:
You are way off topic, so take it to my thread or private (glad to discuss there), but suggest you do not clutter this thread with comments about something other than the topics they are currently dealing with.
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With respect, is not the topic honest comments vs yes it's great, yadyadyad, etc, etc. the point of this post? It could be any thing you post which invites comments. You post, you get comments. Sorry you don't like mine, but as for educated input, the hamon is not true (educated), the blade may or may not be hardened(who knows)?. More than likely, it's a beautiful sculpture,and that's all.


Honest, true, comments? I would take Stuart's Dagger any day over this piece. He's cuts.

Note: This topic has come up repeatedly over the years, over and over, sometimes it's almost torn this forum apart. You think a guy offer's an "educated" comment, others think your'e a silly fellow. Ain't gonna change, and you guys know it.
 
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We can continue the off topic portion of this discussion.....and the thread can be closed.
Or we can stay on topic and have a discussion......
 
yay! The holiday season is already upon us!
An argument thread is just like putting up Xmas lights in this forum :)
 
well, this actually brings up a good point when it comes to critique. As a rule;

-if a collector posts up a knife they just got and are obviously proud of, keep your comments positive or none existent.

-if a knife maker posts a knife and asks for feedback, give it to him! Don't hold back. If you can't figure out how not to be a dick, there is a bigger problem, and it's yours.

-if a knife maker posts up a knife with no request for feedback, but you really want to give some, then ask if it's ok first.

Following these simple rules will keep things rolling smoothly for the most part.

Now, to the spirit of the thread, critique is good. And good critique can be life changing, so it's almost always important to seek it and for those who seek it, to get it. But it's not always desired, so if you don't know, ask. If you want to know how to give a good critique, do some research- which incidentally I think was the goal in starting this thread in the first place.

Now would be a good time to chillaxe. The atmosphere of this thread currently sucks. Not that anyone asked me :)
 
STeven - spot on.

This is a knife discussion forum. There is a gallery for posting and looking pics. At least I think there is. I never go there, because as much as I like looking at pics, I enjoy talking knives with an informed and highly experienced forum community of makers, collectors and general enthusiasts far more.

Posting a pic on a knife discussion forum by definition invites, well, discussion of the knife posted. Artificially limiting that discussion to only positive comments doesn't make much sense to me in this context. Of course one should offer any criticism in a polite, respectful and constructive manner - which I expect we can all recognize without outside help.
 
RogerP said:
STeven - spot on.

This is a knife discussion forum. There is a gallery for posting and looking pics. At least I think there is. I never go there, because as much as I like looking at pics, I enjoy talking knives with an informed and highly experienced forum community of makers, collectors and general enthusiasts far more.

Posting a pic on a knife discussion forum by definition invites, well, discussion of the knife posted. Artificially limiting that discussion to only positive comments doesn't make much sense to me in this context. Of course one should offer any criticism in a polite, respectful and constructive manner - which I expect we can all recognize without outside help.
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Very well put.
 
Lorien said:
well, this actually brings up a good point when it comes to critique. As a rule;

-if a collector posts up a knife they just got and are obviously proud of, keep your comments positive or none existent.

-if a knife maker posts a knife and asks for feedback, give it to him! Don't hold back. If you can't figure out how not to be a dick, there is a bigger problem, and it's yours.

-if a knife maker posts up a knife with no request for feedback, but you really want to give some, then ask if it's ok first.

Following these simple rules will keep things rolling smoothly for the most part.

Now, to the spirit of the thread, critique is good. And good critique can be life changing, so it's almost always important to seek it and for those who seek it, to get it. But it's not always desired, so if you don't know, ask. If you want to know how to give a good critique, do some research- which incidentally I think was the goal in starting this thread in the first place.

Now would be a good time to chillaxe. The atmosphere of this thread currently sucks. Not that anyone asked me :)
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I agree with all you say here, except the first point, I think that a collector that posts a knife should recognize that not every one is going to see that knife with the halo around it that he does. Polite, constructive discussion is not a bad thing.
 
RogerP said:
STeven - spot on.

This is a knife discussion forum. There is a gallery for posting and looking pics. At least I think there is. I never go there, because as much as I like looking at pics, I enjoy talking knives with an informed and highly experienced forum community of makers, collectors and general enthusiasts far more.

Posting a pic on a knife discussion forum by definition invites, well, discussion of the knife posted. Artificially limiting that discussion to only positive comments doesn't make much sense to me in this context. Of course one should offer any criticism in a polite, respectful and constructive manner - which I expect we can all recognize without outside help.
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I think this is what we are all saying. The forum is for nothing, if not for discussion. If you post here, it's for discussion. It's not easy to do it without personalities getting in the way, but that's the only way something meaningful can be done. There is nothing wrong with dissenting views, it's only a problem when they are given with blood thirsty jabs to the throat.

I personally, would like to see it go a little further, in a critique of ones work, if it was done with an emphasis toward helping the maker accomplish HIS goals a great amount of new, inspiring work can be seen. Think about what he was trying to do, and help him do it, as apposed to re-creating something similar to the critics favorite style or maker. This is not directed to you, Roger, personally, or anyone in particular. That's what critique is for, for each maker to become what he wants to be.
 
Mark Knapp said:
I agree with all you say here, except the first point, I think that a collector that posts a knife should recognize that not every one is going to see that knife with the halo around it that he does. Polite, constructive discussion is not a bad thing.
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I agree that 'discussion' in this case is what is required. 'Critique', not so much. Keeping in mind, of course, the context of this thread as it started out.
 
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