The virtues of informed criticism

[Mark Knapp]

When I went to art classes at the University in Fairbanks critique was/is a normal, necessary part of the program. It was formal, and structured - it has formal guidelines as to how it is done.

A critique is an opinion, but every opinion is not a critique. It is not commentary. It is not criticism.

Critique is to help the artists or craftsman accomplish his goals. The intent was to help the artist create the art that he wanted to create, not do it in the style that the viewer/critic would like to see. So when an artist introduced a new piece, part of his opening statement included what we was trying to accomplish in the piece. If the makers goal was to build a hunter in the style of Loveless it would not be helpful to him if a critic suggested flat grinds and hidden pins. If a person posted a knife and said his goal was to build a Bowie in the school of the ABS, then we should talk to him about the choil, differential heat treating and flow but if that was obviously not his objective, then it helps him little to opine about those things.

Too many times a critic who favors a particular maker or style will sway every maker to make knives in the style that critic prefers.

Critique should be always be polite, to the point and objective. I should not be able to tell how a critic feels about a maker personally or a particular style. It's like journalism, I should not be able to tell how a journalist feels about an issue or person he or she is reporting on. I just want to know the facts.

If someone asked, "What can I do to make this knife more appealing" Then by all means all suggestions are fair game, but please do it politely. We can all learn from that.

Too many times critiques are given with an objective other than to help the maker. Ether it's to demonstrate the knowledge of the critic, or advance one school of thought over another but it does little to help the maker. Rude comments never serve to help the maker or advance discussion in a positive way.

These, of course, are just my opinions.

The best to all of you, Merry Christmas or whatever Holiday is yours.

 

[Karda]

Very well stated, Mark.

On the same note, too often and not only on this forum are knifemakers pictures posted with little other than specifications.
No real insight as to what the makers goals were for the piece or how/why he chose this material, technique or design element.
It would help most posters understand the lineage of the piece, so that perhaps a critique would be a moot point.

Part of the problem on this forum as I see it can be best summed up by your third to last sentence.
There seems to be only one, maybe two people here willing to critique at all and then it seems that they mostly rely on their preferences to form their critiques which really doesn't make for objectivity. Added to the problem is one of tactfulness, or lack threof, which doesn't provide for meaningful or productive discussion. Then theres the problem of the critics being critiqued themselves. If one it willing to critique, they should be humble enough to have their critique critiqued....

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

I think it is fine if no comments were welcomed on knives posted up here.

I think it is fine if all politely worded and offered comments were welcomed.

I do NOT think it is fine to welcome/encourage positive gushing comments while discouraging or disinviting any politely-offerred critical comments or feedback unless they are specifically asked for (which is pretty rare). It masks truth and it does not take long for anyone with a three digit IQ to figure things out and attach little if any real meaning or value to the positive gushing comments, which are then reduced to little more than verbal masturbation.

This is a variant of a business maxim that I used in one of my many former lives: In a world without "no" then "yes" doesn't mean very much. However, the world is still full of "Yes-Men" and the world of custom knives is apparently no different.

But again . . . not my forum.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I think it is fine if no comments were welcomed on knives posted up here.

I think it is fine if all politely worded and offered comments were welcomed.

I do NOT think it is fine to welcome/encourage positive gushing comments while discouraging or disinviting any politely-offerred critical comments or feedback unless they are specifically asked for (which is pretty rare). It masks truth and it does not take long for anyone with a three digit IQ to figure things out and attach little if any real meaning or value to the positive gushing comments, which are then reduced to little more than verbal masturbation.

This is a variant of a business maxim that I used in one of my many former lives: In a world without "no" then "yes" doesn't mean very much. However, the world is still full of "Yes-Men" and the world of custom knives is apparently no different.

But again . . . not my forum.

I agree.

 

[sheathmaker]

I grew up in Corpus Christi, Texas, on Corpus Christi Bay and the Gulf of Mexico. There was almost always a stiff breeze coming on shore. One of the first things I learned playing and scouting along the beach was to NOT urinate into the wind.

As I read this thread along with an abundance of moderation, I am reminded again it's not a good idea to urinate into the wind.

Thank you your time and Best Regards,

Paul

 

[RogerP]

Peter - excellent thread and commentary throughout.

Joe P, STeven, Coop, Virginian - props to you all.

Karda - I'll await your list of approved adjectives for polite criticism and then apply them as needed to your posts in this thread.

 

[Karda]

That's the thing. There hasn't been an "abundance of moderation' in this thread or in the forum in general.
Any moderation has been in direct relation to offenses. If one does not want to be moderated the best course of action is to follow the rules.

Karda - I'll await your list of approved adjectives for polite criticism and then apply them as needed to your posts in this thread.

Perhaps you should read back a bit further. You're liable to be waiting a very long time.

 

[Lorien]

part of the issue here might be that not every knife maker is looking for, or at, the same thing.
Some are making tools, some are making Art, some are making a hybrid of the two.

Critiquing Art is not easy, but if the understanding of the object at hand is that it's intention is to be an Art piece, that's a common ground from which to start.
The craft element throws a wrinkle into things, since perceived utility enters the equation.

The thing that makes all the rest so very difficult is the inability of physically experiencing something that, by its very existence, demands something of a physical connection in order to understand it more perfectly.

It's never a bad thing to discuss what critique means to the population of this forum since, hopefully, it keeps drawing new members who might not be aware of the tension involved in the process. I think Coop's suggestion to apply a label could be very helpful, and in not in too intrusive a way. It's subtle, and I like that.

Likewise, the premise of this thread is solid. It suggests a generalized approach to providing feedback, and therefore reinforces that quality of this forum that sets it apart from others which focus on the same subject matter.

 

[kamagong]

Karda,

Why are you so reluctant to offer suggestions, despite the numerous requests to do so? You refer to Webster's and talk about depriving others the chance to educate themselves, but this is a community. At its best this forum is a place where we can learn, including how to interact with one another. Even when I was in school I did not learn on my own. I read books (including various thesauri), but I also gained knowledge from my teachers and fellow students. I welcomed knowledge regardless of the source. I even shared some on occasion. Please do so here.

 

[JParanee]

Karda

I'm not going to post on this thread anymore because your right people should be polite especially on the Internet where rudeness comes way to easy behind a key board

If people are rude in their comments moderators should take appropriate actions

As you know I do not comment negatively on very many posts at all especially when it comes to someone's work.

If I don't like the piece I move on.

Being that this is the best time of year on the forum IMHO because of the holidays and Rogers Best Bowie thread, which I always anxiously wait for

I believe you all should be careful and move on on this. We do not need anyone missing

The wonderful things about this forum greatly out weight the bad

But Karda

Just like people should learn to critique or comment politely, I believe you should learn to politely moderate

The following examples I find a tad bit rude

So, basically go back to everyone doing as they pleased without regard to manners, courtesy..... or rules.
Wise not to hold your breath. It's not going to happen.

Perhaps you should read back a bit further. You're liable to be waiting a very long time.

Grown men are not used to being spoken to this way

I would be offended if that was directed to me

Just a suggestion ..... I hope you and everyone on here have a wonderful holiday season

 

[Karda]

If people are rude in their comments moderators should take appropriate actions

Moderators have taken action. It has been met with argumentativeness Etc... and threads posted in W&C and Tech Support.
Instead of learning from mistakes it seems the martyr syndrome rears it's ugly head.

But Karda

Just like people should learn to critique or comment politely I believe you should learn to politely moderate

The following examples I find a tad bit rude






Grown men are not used to being spoken to this way

I would be offended if that was directed to me

Just a suggestion ..... I hope you and everyone on here have a wonderful holiday season

Would it be preferable that I moderate the posts those responses were related to?
Or would it be preferable for me to respond as a poster.
Some here possibly should learn to recognize the difference.

 

[Karda]

Karda,

Why are you so reluctant to offer suggestions, despite the numerous requests to do so? You refer to Webster's and talk about depriving others the chance to educate themselves, but this is a community. At its best this forum is a place where we can learn, including how to interact with one another. Even when I was in school I did not learn on my own. I read books (including various thesauri), but I also gained knowledge from my teachers and fellow students. I welcomed knowledge regardless of the source. I even shared some on occasion. Please do so here.

As I stated previously....
It is not my inclination to educate posters on matters of manners, etiquette, politeness or grammar.
I don't ask anyone to teach me what my parents and educators have already gone over. My continuing education is my own cross to bear, just as is it anyone elses. It is not my job as a poster or as a moderator to provide for anyone elses continuing education. A moderator should not have to specifically spell out what should or should not be said. All here are adult enough to make their own decisions and to educate themselves.

Now, if anyone really wants to discuss paid tutelage, perhaps we can work something out.

 

[sheathmaker]

Karda, there are times when I personally have a bit of difficulty figuring out if you are a poster or a moderator (in the same post). I could easily take the quotes from your posts that Paranee quoted in his post either way. One way from a participating poster and the other way as a subtle nudge from a Moderator.

I will say this in all honesty. Until I can figure out whether you are a poster or a patrolling moderator, I hesitate to get very deeply involved in a thread. I have a long standing perfect record here on BF and I'm sure not going to sacrifice that for the sake of a give and take with a mod. I also rarely take a knife to a gun fight.

Paul

 

[braillediver]

Personally I've learned more from a few of the heated, passionate threads than all the other group hug threads combined. I stopped reading most of the postings because they're boring and don't offer any real insight- yeah nice knife.

But I'm a guest and live by the House rules.

 

[Karda]

Karda, there are times when I personally have a bit of difficulty figuring out if you are a poster or a moderator (in the same post). I could easily take the quotes from your posts that Paranee quoted in his post either way. One way from a participating poster and the other way as a subtle nudge from a Moderator.

I will say this in all honesty. Until I can figure out whether you are a poster or a patrolling moderator, I hesitate to get very deeply involved in a thread. I have a long standing perfect record here on BF and I'm sure not going to sacrifice that for the sake of a give and take with a mod. I also rarely take a knife to a gun fight.

Paul

Generally my subtle nudges come with either a red or yellow Chiclet attached to them. When they don't my responses as a mod are usually bold and red. When they aren't, it's usually just making suggestions as another poster. Am I perfect? I never claimed to be. Could I forget to bold and red...sure. Do I sometimes forego chiclets for a stern reminder? Yes I do .

 

[David Stifle]

Commentary? possibly. Being criticized in public. No not really.
Even then, any commentary should be well thought and presented in a polite manner.
Also would be a good idea to ask if the knifemaker wishes the criticism or not.
Politeness is a wonderful thing sometimes.

I've offered my thoughts, but I may be too blunt. I wanted to post my thought on the Ron Best Wakisaki, but the owner was so proud I let it go. My thoughts, the fake hamon ruined it, completely and utterly.

This forum has slide from being a mean assed place only the bravest makers would post in, to a forum even the rawest of makekers feel free in to post in thinking they are as good as Master Bladesmiths. Why is that important to this conversation? Think about it.

 

[Karda]

This forum has slide from being a mean assed place only the bravest makers would post in, to a forum even the rawest of makekers feel free in to post in thinking they are as good as Master Bladesmiths. Why is that important to this conversation? Think about it.

Is there somewhere that says one has to be a "Master Blademith" to post in this forum?
This place should be welcoming to all to post their knives, not just a select few deemed appropriate by a select few.
If a maker wants more exclusivity, perhaps posting in the knifemakers gallery work be more appropriate.

In fact, while we're on the subject of that forum, perhaps any critiques should happen there, in front of more experienced peers and more out of the public eye than this main forum. Perhaps this will mitigate some of the problems and lead to a bit more productiveness in discussion.

 

[betzner]

I've offered my thoughts, but I may be too blunt. I wanted to post my thought on the Ron Best Wakisaki, but the owner was so proud I let it go. My thoughts, the fake hamon ruined it, completely and utterly.

This forum has slide from being a mean assed place only the bravest makers would post in, to a forum even the rawest of makekers feel free in to post in thinking they are as good as Master Bladesmiths. Why is that important to this conversation? Think about it.

Just to let you know, I value everyone's opinion. Your opinion is just that, yours. You can use it as you wish. It's not about what you say or think, it's about how you go about it. So go for it, but realize I'll always value my opinion on it more than yours.

Best,

Bob

 

[Ebbtide]

When I went to art classes at the University in Fairbanks critique was/is a normal, necessary part of the program. It was formal, and structured - it has formal guidelines as to how it is done.

A critique is an opinion, but every opinion is not a critique. It is not commentary. It is not criticism.

Critique is to help the artists or craftsman accomplish his goals. The intent was to help the artist create the art that he wanted to create, not do it in the style that the viewer/critic would like to see. So when an artist introduced a new piece, part of his opening statement included what we was trying to accomplish in the piece. If the makers goal was to build a hunter in the style of Loveless it would not be helpful to him if a critic suggested flat grinds and hidden pins. If a person posted a knife and said his goal was to build a Bowie in the school of the ABS, then we should talk to him about the choil, differential heat treating and flow but if that was obviously not his objective, then it helps him little to opine about those things.

Too many times a critic who favors a particular maker or style will sway every maker to make knives in the style that critic prefers.

Critique should be always be polite, to the point and objective. I should not be able to tell how a critic feels about a maker personally or a particular style. It's like journalism, I should not be able to tell how a journalist feels about an issue or person he or she is reporting on. I just want to know the facts.

If someone asked, "What can I do to make this knife more appealing" Then by all means all suggestions are fair game, but please do it politely. We can all learn from that.

Too many times critiques are given with an objective other than to help the maker. Ether it's to demonstrate the knowledge of the critic, or advance one school of thought over another but it does little to help the maker. Rude comments never serve to help the maker or advance discussion in a positive way.

These, of course, are just my opinions.

The best to all of you, Merry Christmas or whatever Holiday is yours.

That was extremely well said.

 

[Bladeplay74]

I'm with Joe. I really don't want to see any blood spilt over this thread.

Karda, you are free to post what you will, both as a moderator and as a knife enthusiast. But it strikes me that you only post here to fan flames and rarely do so otherwise. People in law enforcement are trained first and foremost in de-escalation. I think your conscientiousness with regards to makers feelings is commendable. As a super mod, I think it's unseemly to juggle your roles across or within each post you've made here. This thread had a lot of potential. Lets not derail it with this blending of roles.

Many people outside the ABS post to this forum with great success, and many mastersmiths still learn something every day from them. The community makes the forum, not the other way around.

Seth