This Ain't a Box of Grandma's Cookies!

Should the shipper pay for lost uninsured Busse goodies?

  • Yes shipper is responsible and should pay

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No the receiver is $H!T OUTA LUCK

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
I really wished you had put more details in the original post that this was a trade etc. I am not sure that everyone that is replying is doing so based off of reading the entire thread.

See, the second he accepted your knives, and was satisfied in a trade.... that made his knives that he was to send you the equivalence of cash. THe fact that he cant prove that you ever received it means that he has too send your knives back. I dont think he owes you cash necessarily. Especially, considering he didnt even insure them, and depending on the trade you could still loose. Even, if they were insured would you want to wait 6 months to get your knives/$$$? He owes you the knives, but really he owe's you nothing more.

I also wish you had made this a public poll so everyone could see the votes.
 
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knife hunter said:
I really wished you had put more details in the original post that this was a trade etc. I am not sure that everyone that is replying is doing so based off of reading the entire thread.

See, the second he accepted your knives, and was satisfied in a trade.... that made his knives that he was to send you the equivalence of cash. THe fact that he cant prove that you ever received it means that he has too send your knives back. I dont think he owes you cash necessarily. Especially, considering he didnt even insure them, and depending on the trade you could still loose. Even, if they were insured would you want to wait 6 months to get your knives/$$$? He owes you the knives, but really he owe's you nothing more.

I also wish you had made this a public poll so everyone could see the votes.
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I agree!:thumbup:




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Raymond1000 said:
Once I was looking to mail order something. The store in question wanted me to pay extra for shipping insurance.

I called the Washington State Attorney General’s office for advice. They told me, “When an offer to sell something is accepted, it becomes a contract. The definition of a contract is, ‘A payment made for goods or services received.’ If you pay them money and the goods are not received, the contract is not fulfilled and the seller is liable.”
Click to expand...

We have a tradition here that no deal is final until both parties are satisfied. Not everyone understands or subscribes to it, but everyone understands a contract.

If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period.

---

This has nothing to do with insurance, delivery confirmation, or signature required -- those are just postal services to reassure the sender that his interests will be protected.

Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.

It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.

That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case.

---

Except one, of course. We recently even had a member overseas who said putting insurance on a package going to his country is the same as putting a "steal me" sign on it. If for whatever reason the buyer insists on the cheapest, least securely packaged, no extra services mailing method, then you can tell him it's his problem if nothing arrives.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
We have a tradition here that no deal is final until both parties are satisfied. Not everyone understands or subscribes to it, but everyone understands a contract.

If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period.

---

This has nothing to do with insurance, delivery confirmation, or signature required -- those are just postal services to reassure the sender that his interests will be protected.

Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.

It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.

That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case.
Click to expand...


Excellent Post! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Esav Benyamin said:
We have a tradition here that no deal is final until both parties are satisfied. Not everyone understands or subscribes to it, but everyone understands a contract.

If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period.

---

This has nothing to do with insurance, delivery confirmation, or signature required -- those are just postal services to reassure the sender that his interests will be protected.

Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.

It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.

That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case.

---

Except one, of course. We recently even had a member overseas who said putting insurance on a package going to his country is the same as putting a "steal me" sign on it. If for whatever reason the buyer insists on the cheapest, least securely packaged, no extra services mailing method, then you can tell him it's his problem if nothing arrives.
Click to expand...


+1 to that, as said, unless both parties are satisfied with the deal, the deal gets "undone", same as if he got the knives, and they were not as described, etc....
 
Esav Benyamin said:
We have a tradition here that no deal is final until both parties are satisfied. Not everyone understands or subscribes to it, but everyone understands a contract.

If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period.

---

This has nothing to do with insurance, delivery confirmation, or signature required -- those are just postal services to reassure the sender that his interests will be protected.

Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.

It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.

That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case.

---

Except one, of course. We recently even had a member overseas who said putting insurance on a package going to his country is the same as putting a "steal me" sign on it. If for whatever reason the buyer insists on the cheapest, least securely packaged, no extra services mailing method, then you can tell him it's his problem if nothing arrives.
Click to expand...


A big +3 ON THAT POST! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
Barbarossa said:
Most of you know of and responded to my last thread about my "so called lost" package by the USPS. Well I have done everything I could including filing a police report and visiting the pawn shops which I will continue to do but all to no avail in finding my knives. Like the title says these ain't grandma's cookies we're shipping so do think the shipper is responsible to pay if they do not ship properly(insured w/signature confirmation or registered)? The person who shipped them to me should be back from his vacation soon so we can discuss this and what he plans to do. I hope this thread may help in our settlement of what should be done.
Click to expand...

I missed your previous thread, but most likely this does not pertain to the purchase of a Busse on this forum, or this should not even be an issue.

Regardless, the seller should have insured his sale extended to final receipt and satisfaction of buyer. That's just good business.

On the otherhand, in today's world and outside of the Hog realm, it seems the buyer also has a responsibility to insure purchased goods are being shipped accordingly and should also understand their recourse prior to paying for an item, in the event goods are not delivered to their satisfaction.

Good Luck in your resolution of this matter.

On a side note: I'm surprised this hasn't been moved to Whine and Cheese
 
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I can't believe that even 23%+ of you tend to think that the receiver is SOL.. :grumpy:

A few things that I'd like to toss in here:

1.) if it were YOU on the receiving end, how would you expect items being shipped to you to be handled? IF you're perfectly satisfied to not have your items sent to you insured, and don't want a tracking number...and you will let the shipper off the hook with no more than a "Oh well, s**t happens, don't worry about it", Then PLEASE stand up and be recognized. I'd like to know who I don't need to waste insurance on! :p

2.) if you DO expect to have your items shipped to you with insurance and a tracking number, then that is how you should ship them, no questions asked.

The way I see it is this: I ship exactly how I expect to receive... Knives are packaged well, and the box is stuffed to keep the wrapped-up knife from flopping around inside the box. There is a second shipping label on the packaged knife INSIDE the box as well as outside to keep the knife from landing in the dead letter warehouse should it become separated from the shipping box. The address of the intended receiver is DOUBLE CHECKED. I also PHOTOGRAPH all items before I pack them up and then I photo the package before I ship it. ALL packages are INSURED to full value and there is a SIG confirmation tracking number as well.

Why all this trouble?? Because I don't give a rat's azz if I've been paid for what I'm shipping...that knife is still MY KNIFE until it reaches its new owner, and I don't want MY KNIFE getting lost or stolen...and if it does, then the USPS is on the hook for the declared value in insurance. THAT is why I include the shipping as part of the deal and I specify exactly how I intend to ship it.

A deal is NOT a deal until all parties are satisfied, and if one party does not insure the package and it goes missing, then that party should be expected to be on the hook for the value of the missing items, IMO.

Esav Benyamin said:
We have a tradition here that no deal is final until both parties are satisfied. Not everyone understands or subscribes to it, but everyone understands a contract.

If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period.

---

This has nothing to do with insurance, delivery confirmation, or signature required -- those are just postal services to reassure the sender that his interests will be protected.

Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.

It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.

That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case.

---

Except one, of course. We recently even had a member overseas who said putting insurance on a package going to his country is the same as putting a "steal me" sign on it. If for whatever reason the buyer insists on the cheapest, least securely packaged, no extra services mailing method, then you can tell him it's his problem if nothing arrives.
Click to expand...

I just noticed Esav's post, and heartily agree to all of it. :thumbup:
 
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I just read your other posts. You stated it was delivered, but to the wrong house ? If so who signed for it. Have you talked to the people that live there. Did the sender put the wrong address on the package if so he should be responsible, or did the mailman deliver it to the wrong house ( correct address but gave to wrong house), then I would hold the post office responsible.
 
You know, there should be a sticky on the 'Sale" forum with the info that Esav and Jaxx have just provided...

I understand it wouldn't necessarily constitute a legal contract, but would help to set a agreed upon 'code' and proper standards and procedures for trades and sales on Bladeforums. In fact, I'd suggest it is overdue. Lets clear the gray area from this matter.

We all enjoy this fantastic forum and community of knife nuts. I think it only makes sense to have an accepted set of conduct with regard to shipping in order to prevent misunderstandings, and bad feelings down the road.

I hereby nominate ESAV to do such! As he is certainly the resident expert on such matters.

What do you guys think?
 
kdstrick said:
You know, there should be a sticky on the 'Sale" forum with the info that Esav and Jaxx have just provided... [ ... ]

I hereby nominate ESAV to do such! As he is certainly the resident expert on such matters.
Click to expand...

I think Spark already did, and Cougar Allen also posted good information, in FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!

Sticky: Suggestions for having a good Buying / Selling / Trading experience
Spark
Sticky: How Should You Package Knives for Shipping? ( 1 2 3)
Cougar Allen
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I think Spark already did, and Cougar Allen also posted good information, in FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!

Sticky: Suggestions for having a good Buying / Selling / Trading experience
Spark
Sticky: How Should You Package Knives for Shipping? ( 1 2 3)
Cougar Allen
Click to expand...


OK.. so what you are saying is that YOU don't want to do it! :p :D

Seriously though, I've never seen those (my bad, I guess) but apparently neither have a LOT of folks on this thread. I wonder if we could make it more prominent somehow. ;)

Maybe it should be posted as a sticky on all the 'For Sale' subforums? Make it a rule, maybe??? I don't know. Just food for thought.

It would help clear the mud a bit, methinks.
 
We already have a rule about stickies: If you have information you don't want anyone to see, put it in a sticky at the top of every forum.

No problem taking that post and sticking it in FEEDBACK. But people get into habits, and habits take the place of thinking, and eventually take the place of doing things right.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
We have a tradition here that no deal is final until both parties are satisfied. Not everyone understands or subscribes to it, but everyone understands a contract.

If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period.

---

This has nothing to do with insurance, delivery confirmation, or signature required -- those are just postal services to reassure the sender that his interests will be protected.

Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.

It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.

That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case.

---

Except one, of course. We recently even had a member overseas who said putting insurance on a package going to his country is the same as putting a "steal me" sign on it. If for whatever reason the buyer insists on the cheapest, least securely packaged, no extra services mailing method, then you can tell him it's his problem if nothing arrives.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much. It is appreciated.
 
Jaxx said:
I can't believe that even 23%+ of you tend to think that the receiver is SOL.. :grumpy:

A few things that I'd like to toss in here:

1.) if it were YOU on the receiving end, how would you expect items being shipped to you to be handled? IF you're perfectly satisfied to not have your items sent to you insured, and don't want a tracking number...and you will let the shipper off the hook with no more than a "Oh well, s**t happens, don't worry about it", Then PLEASE stand up and be recognized. I'd like to know who I don't need to waste insurance on! :p

2.) if you DO expect to have your items shipped to you with insurance and a tracking number, then that is how you should ship them, no questions asked.

The way I see it is this: I ship exactly how I expect to receive... Knives are packaged well, and the box is stuffed to keep the wrapped-up knife from flopping around inside the box. There is a second shipping label on the packaged knife INSIDE the box as well as outside to keep the knife from landing in the dead letter warehouse should it become separated from the shipping box. The address of the intended receiver is DOUBLE CHECKED. I also PHOTOGRAPH all items before I pack them up and then I photo the package before I ship it. ALL packages are INSURED to full value and there is a SIG confirmation tracking number as well.

Why all this trouble?? Because I don't give a rat's azz if I've been paid for what I'm shipping...that knife is still MY KNIFE until it reaches its new owner, and I don't want MY KNIFE getting lost or stolen...and if it does, then the USPS is on the hook for the declared value in insurance. THAT is why I include the shipping as part of the deal and I specify exactly how I intend to ship it.

A deal is NOT a deal until all parties are satisfied, and if one party does not insure the package and it goes missing, then that party should be expected to be on the hook for the value of the missing items, IMO.



I just noticed Esav's post, and heartily agree to all of it. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Thanks too Alex. Much appreciated as well! I was shocked to see that many think the receiver was SOL too! :eek:
 
I posted a copy as a FEEDBACK sticky, highlighted with *** and I highlighted those two other advice threads the same.

All the stickies in the world come down to one last security measure: YOU have to be clear and complete in your written agreement with your partner in a deal.

Agree it needs to be packed right and sent with full services and until it's delivered, it isn't the recipient's problem. Write this up as a piece of boilerplate or send the link to that post, and ask they they agree in writing or the deal won't fly.
 
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