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Three Weapons and You're On Your Own
- Thread starter munk
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I used to be so much more concerned about having the ne plus ultra in weaponry. Then, one night (after telling Bud Malstrom about my latest or planned purchase), my sensei told me, "I can stop a tank with a stick."
Well, of course, I started thinking about jamming the stick in the road wheels or something, but he said:
"With a stick, I can get a pistol (from someone else). With that pistol, I can get a rifle. With that rifle, I can get an anti-tank weapon..."
So, I realized it was always about the skill of the user, not the inherent superiority of the weapon. Good gear don't hurt, though.
Personally, I am now likely to be perfectly satisfied with whatever expanding ammunition functions well and accurately enough in my weapons. Since I've happened onto Gold Dots at a great price, I'm content.
John, "nine is enough" and easier to find in a pinch.
Well, of course, I started thinking about jamming the stick in the road wheels or something, but he said:
"With a stick, I can get a pistol (from someone else). With that pistol, I can get a rifle. With that rifle, I can get an anti-tank weapon..."
So, I realized it was always about the skill of the user, not the inherent superiority of the weapon. Good gear don't hurt, though.
Personally, I am now likely to be perfectly satisfied with whatever expanding ammunition functions well and accurately enough in my weapons. Since I've happened onto Gold Dots at a great price, I'm content.
John, "nine is enough" and easier to find in a pinch.
The gunsmith at Bob's Cop shop was putting the finishing touches on the FNFAL he'd just tricked out for someone. "Go ahead, pick it up." He told me. Only I didn't want to. It was obviously someone's baby, and the idea of me handling it....
I asked him, "Do you have one of these weapons?"
"No", he said.
"Why not? I asked him, "Aren't you worried about then the sh-t hits the fan?"
"If that ever happens, I'll take one of these away from some clown with this."
And he picked up his 1911.
>>>>>>>>>>
Anyway- I see the limits on the super duper ammo are coming out now in this thread- close range only. What happens if there are many layers of clothing to go through? What happens if the bad guy is 40 yards away and shooting at you?
Most of my life my defense ammo has been solid lead at moderate velocities of around 1000 fps.
munk
I asked him, "Do you have one of these weapons?"
"No", he said.
"Why not? I asked him, "Aren't you worried about then the sh-t hits the fan?"
"If that ever happens, I'll take one of these away from some clown with this."
And he picked up his 1911.
>>>>>>>>>>
Anyway- I see the limits on the super duper ammo are coming out now in this thread- close range only. What happens if there are many layers of clothing to go through? What happens if the bad guy is 40 yards away and shooting at you?
Most of my life my defense ammo has been solid lead at moderate velocities of around 1000 fps.
munk
Nasty
Chief Cook & Bottle Wash
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Spectre said:"With a stick, I can get a pistol (from someone else). With that pistol, I can get a rifle. With that rifle, I can get an anti-tank weapon..."
So, I realized it was always about the skill of the user, not the inherent superiority of the weapon. Good gear don't hurt, though.
"With my ID card I can...."
Finally...someone understands what I was saying...
More chicklets coming if it will let me....
Nasty
Chief Cook & Bottle Wash
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munk said:
munk...Markmanship rules all, especially in trained agressive hands.
CAUTION: Funny or Boring story follows...
I once, during "Peacekeeper Challenge" (an international competition between military teams), was the lone survior against the aggressors. I had an M60 (Miles gear) and was wedged into a crack in a cliff face covering a field of fire across the flag they had to capture. I was in an unreachable position...I had total control of the field of fire...the only way for one of the three remaining members of their team to take me out was to fly!
All was well and I was able to pick off two of the enemy...wondered where the third had got to.
Suddenly, in a blast of Miles gear, he went falling past me.
The Korean grunt had jumped off the top of the small (50 foot or so) cliff and was firing at me as he dropped.
My sensors tripped...his didn't...and the victor was immediately taken to the hospital to set his broken leg and ankle.
Determination...you've got to respect it.
ps: Since I was an instructor, my team had three members...they were a full squad.
.
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Spectre, your story from your sensei is great, and eloquently put. In my redneck lingo the best I could put it was "I'm sneaky and a good shot" 
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A 50 cal ammo can will hold 6,000 rounds of 22LR. The first ten bricks are easy, the other two have to be packed box by box around the other bricks.
Of course I know this from watching a friend pack up his 50 cal ammo can with 12x500 round bricks of 22. ( We won't mention who showed him how to do this, understand? )
Of course I know this from watching a friend pack up his 50 cal ammo can with 12x500 round bricks of 22. ( We won't mention who showed him how to do this, understand? )
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munk said:
I disagree that it is close range only. I never said that. Jeff did, and unless Newton's law of inertia has been repealed that makes zero sense. The prefragmented loads weigh less overall, go faster overall, and transfer ALL of their energy. Also, in today's litigous society, I would rather tell the prosecutor that I had shot the bad guy with "safety" ammo, than with "+P cop killer ammo", which you know is how the prosecutor would characterize it.
I did say that most gun fights happen at ranges of 7 yards or less. The FBI has confirmed this. Also, most folks live in urban areas. In those areas a .40 caliber 180 gr. +P FMJ round will go through several walls before stopping, and not transfer its entire energy load at any one place along the way. A MagSafe or Glaser round will go until it hits something, transfer all it's energy, and then stop. You are more likely to stop someome with a full energy transfer than by zipping thru multiple layers of clothing. If you are the (probably considerably) less than the 1 percent of people who routinely engage hostile people targets with a pistol at distances approaching half a football field, then you would be better off with a rifle anyway.
To me, the ideal combination of carryability and defense would be a Commander sized .45 autoloader shooting 185 gr. JHP +P rounds at around 1300 FPS. Georgia Arms makes some of this stuff in nickel cases that is great. But 230 grain ball at 900 FPS is fine with me too, and a great stopper. However, daily carry is a consideration, and I would rather have a good compact .9 with me with hot safety ammo than the larger bore 1911 or revolver sitting at home because it was too heavy to carry that day or I wasn't dressed for it.
When I drove cab for 3 years I carried every day, and even a compact .9 of the day (which meant a 1911 Commander or a Browning Hi-Power) was more than I wanted to carry daily, not to mention the Glock hadn't been invented yet when I started driving. (Today I would choose the same G19 or my Model 19-3 in .357 mag Glasers). I had limitations on what I could wear, was sitting for 12-15 hour shifts, and was in and out of the cab 20 times a shift. The door locks didn't even work, so stashing anything in the cab was out of the question. I picked a good blue Manhurin manufactured Walther PPK/S, made in St. Etienne France on original Walther equipment moved there after the war. I used a fingertip mag and had the gun nickeled so it would stand up to the holster for long periods of time. Added Pachmayer grips. It was only a .380, so I carried Glaser safety ammo instead of hardball. Carried it in a Bianchi medium shoulder holster that was perfect for the job, that held the gun horizontally underneath my left arm. Saved my butt on more than one occasion, and within car length ranges. Wish I still had it...
Regards,
Norm
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Down to the bare bones, if I just had my Ang Khola rig, with it's small tools and gear on the scabbard, and a decent .22LR weapon I'd be doing pretty good.
Probably one of the handiest and most durable backpacking weapons ever is the stainless steel Ruger MkII pistol. I prefer the 4-3/4" standard profile barrel.
Just for regular backpacking I've often packed a MkII with 5 loaded mags (50 rounds) of CCI stingers, 200 extra rounds of CCI Stingers, and 100 extra rounds of CCI CB Longs.
The CB longs work OK in a MkII. I usually load only 5 per mag and you have to manually feed them in, working the bolt both back and forwards like you would with a bolt action rifle, never letting the bolt slam home on it's own or you'll get a misfeed. They are very quiet and are great for things like knocking a rabbit or quail in the head or blowing a squirrel out of a tree.
With a MkII, a decent knife, something to start a fire with, and a bit of simple fishing gear, all easily conceiled in a pack, you can survive a lot of situations if you use your brain.
Probably one of the handiest and most durable backpacking weapons ever is the stainless steel Ruger MkII pistol. I prefer the 4-3/4" standard profile barrel.
Just for regular backpacking I've often packed a MkII with 5 loaded mags (50 rounds) of CCI stingers, 200 extra rounds of CCI Stingers, and 100 extra rounds of CCI CB Longs.
The CB longs work OK in a MkII. I usually load only 5 per mag and you have to manually feed them in, working the bolt both back and forwards like you would with a bolt action rifle, never letting the bolt slam home on it's own or you'll get a misfeed. They are very quiet and are great for things like knocking a rabbit or quail in the head or blowing a squirrel out of a tree.
With a MkII, a decent knife, something to start a fire with, and a bit of simple fishing gear, all easily conceiled in a pack, you can survive a lot of situations if you use your brain.
Norm -
Of the two exotic ammo varieties, I'd pick Magsafes. I don't use them any more, but I did in my revolvers.
I could never find a Glaser round that would even shoot on the paper at 5-7 yards, but I am referring to a 9X12 sheet of paper. I have tried Glasers in a few guns.
Perhaps they have been improved.
I once tried shooting Glasers (revolver loads) into magazines. Thes one that I tried did not break up and spread the shot. The ammo acted like ball ammo. It would not have been very effective.
Unless they have improved greatly, I would stay away from Glasers, even in a revolver.
Magsafes were closeup accurate, and very high velocity. I never tested them for effectiveness. I also could not afford to shoot enough of them in an auto to be sure that they would be reliable.
The velocity was so high that they shot very low. This would not matter at 5-7 yards, but would at 15.
If you rely on Magsafes, try shooting a roast beef or a turkey... just to be sure that they really work. If you can't spare the food, try wet magazines. Also, would you want to rely on birdshot in a .410? The small guage has a lot more oomph than the small amount of shot that you have in a Magsafe.
Perhaps I am off here, but accuracy does matter. Even the more accurate Magsafes in a revolver were not as precise as a good hollowpoint.
Have you tried a few mags of the loads to be sure that they are reliable?
Of the two exotic ammo varieties, I'd pick Magsafes. I don't use them any more, but I did in my revolvers.
I could never find a Glaser round that would even shoot on the paper at 5-7 yards, but I am referring to a 9X12 sheet of paper. I have tried Glasers in a few guns.
Perhaps they have been improved.
I once tried shooting Glasers (revolver loads) into magazines. Thes one that I tried did not break up and spread the shot. The ammo acted like ball ammo. It would not have been very effective.
Unless they have improved greatly, I would stay away from Glasers, even in a revolver.
Magsafes were closeup accurate, and very high velocity. I never tested them for effectiveness. I also could not afford to shoot enough of them in an auto to be sure that they would be reliable.
The velocity was so high that they shot very low. This would not matter at 5-7 yards, but would at 15.
If you rely on Magsafes, try shooting a roast beef or a turkey... just to be sure that they really work. If you can't spare the food, try wet magazines. Also, would you want to rely on birdshot in a .410? The small guage has a lot more oomph than the small amount of shot that you have in a Magsafe.
Perhaps I am off here, but accuracy does matter. Even the more accurate Magsafes in a revolver were not as precise as a good hollowpoint.
Have you tried a few mags of the loads to be sure that they are reliable?
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Ronin,
Respectfully, your link (http://weapons.travellercentral.com/) is a role-playing game site.
Looking at other, known quantities such as saboted shotgun slugs gives us some discrepancies: Eff Range : 400m Max Range : 1200m
(Information from reputable sources follows. As the home page from your source says: The weapons posted here do not necessarily represent actual present day weapons.)
Most to the point: (Israeli Special Forces Site)
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/mossberg/mossberg.htm : Using this special sabot slug makes the Mossberg 695 a very accurate shotgun with a maximum effective range of 100-130 meters depending on how skilled the end user is.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/shooting/shotguns/article/0,13199,543950,00.html : You should consider 150 yards to be the absolute maximum range for shotgunning whitetails.
http://www.ithacagun.com/experience/great_reading/deerslayer.shtml : 208 yards (Note: this is the longest documented shotgun shot I've seen, and did represent a rested, scoped shotgun fired at a stationary target.)
http://www.polywad.com/qs12ga.html : 150 yards
In sum, I have been able to find no reliable sources that give stats similar to yours. This company, a seller of real, genuine flechettes, only claims an "area target" range of 150 meters- and only 19 flechettes fit into a 12 ga round, not 40.
John
Respectfully, your link (http://weapons.travellercentral.com/) is a role-playing game site.
Looking at other, known quantities such as saboted shotgun slugs gives us some discrepancies: Eff Range : 400m Max Range : 1200m
(Information from reputable sources follows. As the home page from your source says: The weapons posted here do not necessarily represent actual present day weapons.)
Most to the point: (Israeli Special Forces Site)
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/mossberg/mossberg.htm : Using this special sabot slug makes the Mossberg 695 a very accurate shotgun with a maximum effective range of 100-130 meters depending on how skilled the end user is.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/shooting/shotguns/article/0,13199,543950,00.html : You should consider 150 yards to be the absolute maximum range for shotgunning whitetails.
http://www.ithacagun.com/experience/great_reading/deerslayer.shtml : 208 yards (Note: this is the longest documented shotgun shot I've seen, and did represent a rested, scoped shotgun fired at a stationary target.)
http://www.polywad.com/qs12ga.html : 150 yards
In sum, I have been able to find no reliable sources that give stats similar to yours. This company, a seller of real, genuine flechettes, only claims an "area target" range of 150 meters- and only 19 flechettes fit into a 12 ga round, not 40.
John
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- Nov 3, 1998
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- 4,331
Sources aside, the very real major problem with flechettes is energy loss. With smaller flechettes, the dart is so lightweight, it loses energy quickly (also the problem with most traditional frangible rounds). This is not a problem with larger kinetic-energy penetrators- but then, shotgun flechettes are multiple small projectiles, not a single, large-bore depleted uranium spike.
If we said the flechettes were .177 in caliber, and weighed 8 grains, traveling at 1950 f/s, at 150 yards, the flechette would be down to only 18 ft/lbs of energy. (This is skewed slightly, since the B/C calc wouldn't give a B/C on a projectile weighing less than 11 grains, so I had to use that to calc b/c.)
http://www.handloads.com/calc/
If we said the flechettes were .177 in caliber, and weighed 8 grains, traveling at 1950 f/s, at 150 yards, the flechette would be down to only 18 ft/lbs of energy. (This is skewed slightly, since the B/C calc wouldn't give a B/C on a projectile weighing less than 11 grains, so I had to use that to calc b/c.)
http://www.handloads.com/calc/
Norm, what are you trying to say?
<<<I disagree that it is close range only. I never said that. Jeff did, and unless Newton's law of inertia has been repealed that makes zero sense. The prefragmented loads weigh less overall, go faster overall, and transfer ALL of their energy.>>>>
Norm, if it weighs 60 grains, it's sectional density is not going to permit it to be a long range weapon- even if long range is considered 20 yards. Then you go on to say:
<<<To me, the ideal combination of carryability and defense would be a Commander sized .45 autoloader shooting 185 gr. JHP +P rounds at around 1300 FPS>>>
Which is the opposite of the first, or at least halfway closer to my own.
Norm, I only said I did not wish to trust my life to any proprietary special loading defense ammo. I'm sure Mag safe and all this ilk is fine, just not for me. Is this a problem to you? I prefer a significant weight, large diameter, moderate to fast speeds. Surely you are not going to challenge my choice as unworthy?
I am very much aware of the distances involved in most defensive encounters. The high fragmentation ammo is troubled by multi clothing layers, and is dependent upon favorable environmental conditions. Either a solid lead slug of the Keith type, from 10MM upwards to 45, or a controlled expansion round such as offered by all the ammo makers, will perform under a wider variety of conditions, including multi clothing, car doors, plaster walls,
and striking bone. I prefer the heavier weight for calibre, not the flying ashtray in your 45 ACP 185 gr hollowpoint. You are relying upon impact and energy transfer only: I prefer penetration AND energy transfer. Even your 185 45 cal hp may not penetrate and can leave a surface wound only. The attacker may continue attacking. I would prefer to render the nervous system inopperative.
If I lived in an apartment complex I might give the high frag stuff a more serious look.
respectfully,
munk
<<<I disagree that it is close range only. I never said that. Jeff did, and unless Newton's law of inertia has been repealed that makes zero sense. The prefragmented loads weigh less overall, go faster overall, and transfer ALL of their energy.>>>>
Norm, if it weighs 60 grains, it's sectional density is not going to permit it to be a long range weapon- even if long range is considered 20 yards. Then you go on to say:
<<<To me, the ideal combination of carryability and defense would be a Commander sized .45 autoloader shooting 185 gr. JHP +P rounds at around 1300 FPS>>>
Which is the opposite of the first, or at least halfway closer to my own.
Norm, I only said I did not wish to trust my life to any proprietary special loading defense ammo. I'm sure Mag safe and all this ilk is fine, just not for me. Is this a problem to you? I prefer a significant weight, large diameter, moderate to fast speeds. Surely you are not going to challenge my choice as unworthy?
I am very much aware of the distances involved in most defensive encounters. The high fragmentation ammo is troubled by multi clothing layers, and is dependent upon favorable environmental conditions. Either a solid lead slug of the Keith type, from 10MM upwards to 45, or a controlled expansion round such as offered by all the ammo makers, will perform under a wider variety of conditions, including multi clothing, car doors, plaster walls,
and striking bone. I prefer the heavier weight for calibre, not the flying ashtray in your 45 ACP 185 gr hollowpoint. You are relying upon impact and energy transfer only: I prefer penetration AND energy transfer. Even your 185 45 cal hp may not penetrate and can leave a surface wound only. The attacker may continue attacking. I would prefer to render the nervous system inopperative.
If I lived in an apartment complex I might give the high frag stuff a more serious look.
respectfully,
munk
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