Three Weapons and You're On Your Own

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munk said:
Norm, if it weighs 60 grains, it's sectional density is not going to permit it to be a long range weapon- even if long range is considered 20 yards.
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Munk, I think we are pretty much in agreement on the basics. I respect your obvious expertise on big-bore guns and ammo, but I think the above statement sums up our sole difference.

You have me here, as I don't get this statement. I shoot CCI Stingers out to 150 yards regularly, and yet their sectional density is also way low as they are only a 32 gr. bullet. You are using the wrong argument to make your valid point.

The MagSafe 60 grain 9D Defender round generates 1800 FPS and 431 Ft. lbs of energy out of a 4" barrel. I have shot targets with it out to the limits of the 25 yard pistol range I have access to. Yes, it does shoot a bit low, but I genuinely believe it hits one hell of a lot harder than standard .9mm with a 115 grain bullet, despite the difference in sectional density.

BTW, Hatcher's Notebook, and other references that I have show that Sectional Density:

Has nothing to do with determining the trajectory of a bullet.

Makes no difference to the wind drift values.

Two identical bullets with identical sectional density values can have wildly different gyroscopic stability values, so again SD values are usless here.

In short Sectional density has nothing at all to do with terminal bullet performance. What matters is how much energy the projectile retains at target impact, and what its form is at that time.

By this logic a bullet of a given poor sectional density will do no better ballistically if removed from a .9 mm casing and stuck into a necked down .50 caliber casing.

Remember that SD varies depending upon not only the mass, which you have noted, but also the composition and density of the bullet and the power behind it. That is where the MagSafes are different, and with the custom load (also avail in a +P loading), that is what you are getting.

I have to say that were dress and weight and form not always a consideration, my 3" .44 mag would probably be the weapon I would carry all the time, and to hell with the .9! I have to agree that there is something about that big-ass bore and monster projectile that would end most fights in one single round. No double taps needed. However, I have tried to compromise to different situations, and in that case I want the .9 to have the most potent _defensive_ ammo possible!

Regards,

Norm
 
The lower the SD and BC of a projectile, the more energy is cast off as it travels, the less retained energy it has, and the less penetration it has at ANY DISTANCE. Your 9 mill 60 gr bullet is going to have terrible numbers, and shed both energy and velocity very quickly. You've thrown a rock, a very very small rock that will break apart upon impact. The math behind your round is going to be less than that of a 110 gr bullet in a .308
Rusty and I both agree the little 30 carbine loaded with soft points is devastating- but I still don't want it. If it hits bone- it may not incapacitate. It may only leave a grievious surface wound - giving me one rage filled attacker who in his last moments means to kill me!

Let's drop that- this boils down to your belief in a violent impact with little penetration, and my belief in penetration and energy transmission. As I've said, if I lived in a an apartment complex, I'd be more concerned about overpenetration.

I'm not really sure still what you are getting at or what bone you have to pick here. I'm sure these special rounds are fine for you. Not for me. I want my defense ammo to work under a WIDE range of circumstances, not just in an ideal. Sure, you can kill a deer if you hit him with a 223 expansion round in the chest lung area, but not if he's quartering away.
My choice will work under a wider range of circumstances. You cannot control where and when danger strikes. If I have to shoot through a car body I want that ability. Heavy clothing- I want that ability, behind a plaster wall- I want that ability.

Like you, I've researched this up the ying yang. It is fine with me you like splatter technology- I do not. Why are we talking?

I haven't said these proprietary rounds are useless- just that I don't want one!!! Must my choice be the same as yours?? Of course not. If all I had in my firearm was one of your splatter rounds I'd still be OK. But I don't have to make your choice, do I?

Why are you talking about trajectory? Have I said you will fail to hit your target because your round falls to the floor! NO.

I simply do not want your round.


munk
 
Sectional density has a LOT to do with penetration, and therefore terminal performance. It has less to do with that performance if you've staked all your eggs on the violent expansion system as you have.

You know this. I'm going for penetration. You are not. I'm going to knock out the central nervous system, or enough of his skeletal muscular system or vital organs as possible. You are not.

It's fine with me- your system has merit- but I don't want it!!!!

I want to know my bullet is going through his leather coat, through his ribs, and exiting out his SPINE.

I don't want 60 grains of 9 mill traveling 1800 fps. I would much rather have 260 grs of 45 calibre traveling at 900 fps. I'd take a solid lead projectile of the Keith design rather than your system. But I would also take a controlled expansion round, made by anyone, traveling at 1300 fps with between 700 and 1000 foot pounds of energy.
If some of this energy is wasted- Oh well! The recipient is not likely to be up and talking about this with me.

I've shot deer with these bullets. I know what will happen to a man. I'm happy with that.

munk
 
Those of us who track and hunt the mighty, ferocious, and savage Wisconsin Whitetail deer with shotguns and who hunt, but often don't find, the mighty, ferocious, and savage Ringneck Pheasant, would be hard-pressed to find any instance of a shot pellet (flechette or not) traversing anywhere NEAR those distances.

As for slugs, I was with a neighbor (who should not have taken the shot, but farmers, what can you do?) with a twenty guage and killed a doe at 175 measured paces away. Yes, he hit the spine and it dropped like a rock. No, he didn't have a clue that he was going to hit the deer. No, I don't hunt with him any more.

I've not used buckshot of any dimension, but I'd guess 60 yards might be the maximum effective range. For birdshot down to...say #4's lead, or #2's steel, maybe 40 yards for a bird or rabbit. But birds and rabbits are fragile.

For slugs, tops...100 yards...and then I wouldn't be counting on much. The drop is 10.5 inches for a 12 guage, 1 oz. slug at 100 yards.

Of course, I don't bench shoot, so...the pro's may easily outdo me.


Edit: Spectre? Hey John, you were sooo discreet in addressing Ronin's post. I am very proud of you. :-) :)
 
munk said:
My choice will work under a wider range of circumstances. You cannot control where and when danger strikes. If I have to shoot through a car body I want that ability. Heavy clothing- I want that ability, behind a plaster wall- I want that ability.
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No problem, no disagreement, and I never intended to say to anyone that my choice HAD to be theirs. I absolutely agree that I am trading off one level and type of performance for another. The MagSafes would fail miserably if called upon to fire THROUGH the obstacles you mentioned above, or in short do more than they were designed to do. Yours will indeed work under a far wider range of circumstances (with the single exception of limiting over-penetration if needed or if that happened to be a concern.)

Based on my past encounters and current urban situation I have to go with what I think will be the most useful and least accident prone _for me_, so in that case only have to make some key assumptions: I am assuming that I will be firing only at soft-bodied humans with house room interiors being the maximum range.

That the MagSafes will perform _under those conditions_ in an autoloader just like a big-bore revolver firing a much larger harder recoiling round without the risk and potential huge liability of over-penetration, is simply another plus for me.

With different performance needs and personal criteria, other folks choices will widely vary I'm sure.

BTW, I freely admit that I may have a personal bugaboo about over-penetration and the dangers of it in a household / urban environment because of an instance of pure stupidity when I was a kid:

I had an AD with an old Ithaca 1911A1 when I was 15. It was loaded with 230 gr. ball, just factory loaded stuff. I had been shooting but had stupidly left it loaded after leaving the range, and when I got home left one up the spout. I pulled the magazine and dropped the hammer on the last round without thinking. I was sitting on my bed at the time. The bullet went through my hardwood headboard, went through the wall, nicking a stud in the process, flew across the living room, hit the center board of a bookcase (IN the end grain!) went in for an inch and then bounced right back out, then back into the carpet, through the carpet and pad, grooved the hardwood floor, then skipped up and into a chair where my sister had just been sitting, tearing a hole in the upholstery. We found the bullet, still warm and _completely_ undamaged, sitting in the chair.

People do not believe me when I say that a bullet will drastically change direction when it hits something hard enough like that end grain, even 180 degrees, but I have seen it happen many times.

My dad drilled a hole through it and put a chain through the hole and made me wear it around my neck for the next 3 months, 24 hours per day. He did his best to ask me about it daily, and to embarrass me about it whenever possible. (Especially if a crowd of his gun friends were over for a visit!) I never made any kind of safety mistake again!

The energy in that one round amazed me, and to this day when I am thinking of what would happen if a double-tap missed the bad guy (or hit him for that matter) and a window was behind him, and my neighbors yard, or the wall to my daughters bedroom, etc., etc., etc. :eek: No thanks!

Regards,

Norm
 
munk said:
Sectional density has a LOT to do with penetration, and therefore terminal performance. It has less to do with that performance if you've staked all your eggs on the violent expansion system as you have.
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Munk, you have a valid argument on it's own, that is shared by millions of folks including me when that type of ballistic performance is desired. But the above statement is nonsense, and you should not degrade your otherwise good argument with it.

Sectional density has NOTHING to do with penetration. Nada, zilch, zip. Just take the time to read up on the subject. Anecdotal off-repeated gun shop stuff doesn't count. We are very close in seeing things the same way except for this point, as I have pointed out twice.

Here's an example and then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one point:

A 158 grain .38 special flat nosed semi-wadcutter has a sectional density of 0.178 (assuming .356 diameter.)

A 158 grain .38 special round nosed lead bullet also has a sectional density of 0.178.

A 158 grain .38 special JHP with full cupra-nickel jacket also has a sectional density of 0.178.

The penetration and energy transfer potential of these rounds are wildly different. That seems obvious.

SD is one of those things that people mention all the time as a magical standard that should be sought after all the time, when in reality it really doesn't mean much at all. Bullet velocity and configuration and construction and the shape it is in when it hits the target determine penetration and hence how much damage is done to the target, not SD.

Regards,

Norm
 
I have a friend who had an AD with a .32 auto - plain old FMJ factory ammo, probably 20 years old. The slug went through the drywall, the insulation, the exterior siding and buried itself so deep in the ground he couldn't find it. That's the much-maligned .32 ACP I'm referring to. I once heard a gun shop clerk tell a potential customer that a .32 will ricochet off a shirt button. Whew... so much for gun-shop ballistics.
 
Bri in Chi said:
. I once heard a gun shop clerk tell a potential customer that a .32 will ricochet off a shirt button. Whew... so much for gun-shop ballistics.
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It will, if the button was made from armor plate :)
 
Bruise sold me a couple dozen of those armor plate shirt buttons. I sewed them on all my "concealed carry" shirts (well, shirts are more "open carry" aren't they...). I feel soooo much safer these days!

Between the armored buttons, and the silver bullet/holy water ammo (also a BruiseLeee product), and the comforting feeling of that papal indulgence (thanks again Bruise!) in my pocket...I feel invincible!

(feel free to use the obove in your promotional literature)
 
Sorry- we'll have to disagree. Your point is that sectional density is so bad with most handgun rounds that it doesn't matter? Is this it? If we were talking about three different shaped bullets of the same calibre and weight, that would be one thing, but we are talking about a bullet, 60 grains, that is less than half the weight of a normal projectile for this calibre.


Your 60 grain bullet is one half the weight of a standard nine mill bullet. That would be like firing a 75 gr 308 bullet. That is such a drastic reduction that the sectional density and BC do matter. If I were comparing it to other 60 gr nine mill bullets you'd be right; but I'm comparing it to 115 gr Nine Mill bullets.

I'll only say that with your form of self defense round, sectional density does not matter.
That was a good story about your sister. I'm glad it worked out. Hard to think of that old ball ammo doing all that but seeing is believing.









munk
 
If you want low penetration at home, you should try the swat loads in revolvers. They are designed for low penetration. Some Magsafe loads will give you rifle velocities out of handguns and will shoot though walls before breaking up. They may not get through people, but will get through walls.
I once chronographed the 38 swat load at 1582. The 38+p+ load produced 1951 in my Ruger. If you want reduced penetration, you can get it with the swat loads.
Check with the company if you want good advice. That was what I was told when I called Magsafe, some years ago.
 
Well boys, I think this bald fart needs to check in. Sectional density may not have alot to do with penetration for light for caliber bullets such as those used in 9mm and 38 special, I just don't know. But I defy any one to shoot a quartering away fat deer or elk with a light 200 grain .44 mag and make it penetrate like a 300 grain one will. Give both bullets the same size meplat and or ogive, make them both smack the critter with the same amount of energy, the heavy long bullet is going in deeper. It is also going to stay its course and deviate less as well (once it has penetrated).

People aren't quartering away deer. Nor are they jackrabbits. I will split the difference with my two buddies here and use my Black Talons and Starfires. I will make a hole smaller than Norms, bigger than munks, deeper than Norms, less deep than munks.

But I agree with Svashtar that bullets can do some goofy a$$ stuff that you wouldn't think possible. After a close call like he has had perhaps I would make the choices he has.

That's the beauty, though. We can all stuff our bangenschusters with whatever floats our boat :)
 
Actually, 'this bald fart', if you read my posts you will note that I favor either a solid lead of the keith design, or a controlled expansion bullet such as you note with a Starfire or Black talon or Hornady XTP.

norm noted SD does not vary between similar weighted slugs of the same calibre. That's true, though what that has to do with my 45 colt 260 gr bullet and his 60 gr nine mill is nothing.



munk
 
Well slap my rump and call me Alice! I didn't notice that you were hankerin to use them new fangled bullets, just your Keiths. Maybe before I hit 40 I'll learn how to read :D :footinmou So I guess you are middle of the road and leaning right! I think I should go get some sleep. I think we are all getting a little cranky :p
 
I don't really have to slap your rump and call you Alice, do I? Because if I do, I withdraw all my opinion about self defense rounds...




munk
 
1-An AK47 in 5.56X45 (SAM-5) or 7.62X39 (SAM-7) made by Arsenal for offense
2-A Bura 15" Ganga Ram Special
3-A scoped CZ 527 carbine in .223 or 7.62X39 coated with John Norrell's Poly-resin for food
 
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