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Time to stop whining about bearings...
- Thread starter stabman
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That and concrete dust is a bugger.
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haven't run into that yet. I'll take your word on it.
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The concrete dust isn’t so bad, it’s when you start to sweat or the knife is subjected to condensation.
Drywall dust is the same. 
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I've used a bearing knife on cutting lots of ductboard and the glass fibers got packed in there pretty good but didn't stop working. had to clean it out after the end of the day as I could feel lagging from it.The concrete dust isn’t so bad, it’s when you start to sweat or the knife is subjected to condensation.
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Ya, the lag is real! I don’t think that pb washers are clear of this either. Someone here hit it on the head when they said that it comes down to the knifemakers tolerances whether using PB washers or bearings.
Personally I prefer PB washers but not because they are superior (that is to be determined.) haha.
I like the smooth, controlled action, and a lot of times at work, I’m not looking when I close the knife, so drop shut is not high on my list.
All the knives I have on bearings function properly. I’m just not sure if either is superior to the other. I guess it depends on the user and what their preferences are.
DocJD
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Perhaps you slept through your science classes ?
I'm not questioning the veracity of this anecdotal evidence stated in OP .
But this is not a controlled study and is much too small a sample to "prove" or conclude anything at all about the general performance of washers vs bearings .
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This right here is why I generally prefer PB washers to bearings. On the other hand, some of my favorite knives are on bearings. I've stopped up both washer and bearing flippers with sand (knives would still open and lock if i rolled it open with the thumb stud/hole, just wouldn't open all the way if I used the flipper) but usually compressed air or water has been good enough to get them back to flipping.
I personally think washers would be able to handle lateral loads better, vs having all the force on the smaller contact point of each bearing, but I try not to put too much lateral force on by folding knife blades, so it's generally a moot point.
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Evidence and proof are not the same thing. Perhaps you're the one that needs a refresher on science since that's a very simple mistake to make.Perhaps you slept through your science classes ?
I'm not questioning the veracity of this anecdotal evidence stated in OP .
But this is not a controlled study and is much too small a sample to "prove" or conclude anything at all about the general performance of washers vs bearings .
You again seem to be upset because, while this sample size is very small, this is, indeed, evidence, while you've produced no evidence whatsoever to support your assertions, instead relying on hypotheticals.
DocJD
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IMO the main advantage of bearings is the drop shut type ultra smooth action , for the joy of fidgeting .
My usual choice of folder for EDC would be a Cold Steel with Tri-ad lock .
I don't believe bearings would help this type of lock very much .
My AD-10 will drop shut , and is probably as smooth as the lock will ever be ...but still not very fidgety !
My usual choice of folder for EDC would be a Cold Steel with Tri-ad lock .
I don't believe bearings would help this type of lock very much .
My AD-10 will drop shut , and is probably as smooth as the lock will ever be ...but still not very fidgety !
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Every one of my bearing equipped knives. (About 30...) seem to be much smoother than a knife with washers... especially after they eat enough crud to scare you... 
stabman
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I run both fairly dry.Also, I’m curious to whether you ran the bearings dry and the pb with oil? Oil “attracts” dust.
Not questioning your finding, just wondering about variables. Also, could be an Emerson problem.
Before reassembly, I wipe the washers (or bearings) and pivot area with a Tuf-cloth.
stabman
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Got to match the knife to the task...
Bought this Laguiole at Lee Valley Tools with some of the money I made from selling two of the knives I made.
Saw the Laguiole while buying sanding belts, and knew I had to have it.
Figured it would be good for cutting sausage to go with crackers after a nice woods walk:
Did you see how the bearings were recessed deep into the frame of the knife and the washers were not?
I realize the difference. The terms “hard evidence” and proof are used interchangeably by people outside of science and math. The comparison made in this thread is useless unless you use bearings and washers in the same knife.
Chronovore
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There is a big difference between proving claims like "bearings are just as good as washers" or "the arguments against bearings are 100% false"; versus claims like "bearings actually could survive dirty environments" or "many of the arguments against bearings are largely overblown".
I think most of us are to the right of that semicolon.
I think most of us are to the right of that semicolon.
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stabman
,
From my initial read, it is my understanding the metal swarth was blown out fairly soon after contamination. Then a full disassembly was performed, then more cleaning, then photos. So little time/use between contamination, to point where action was compromised, and cleaning.In my experiences over the decades, plastic (Nylon, phenolics, etc.) can fairly easily become impregnated with debris that is harder than itself over use.
One Age Old Example: would be a large number of Cold Steel knives I have either owned or worked on for others. Many come NIB with metal debris in the pivot area (at least up to circa ~2012 when my experiences with CS folders declined sharply). If the knives are dis/re-assed before too much use, the washers can be cleaned easily. After some amount of usage metal particulates can become physically embedded into the washer causing the washer to slightly mushroom around the debris and tighten the action. Over time, can cause galling to blade tang, liner, and/or frame.
Had the metal debris been allowed to remain in the pivot assemble of the Nylatron bearing knife, I would expect metal particulate embedment into the Nylon bearing race :-/
RE: "the Nylatron washers on this knife fit with no visible gaps, but some grit got in there. Not much, but then the greater contact surface area touching the pivoting area seems to have worked against things, making it really, really gritty."
I read that to say, the washers provided feedback that the pivot was contaminated and needed cleaning/maintenance BETTER/SOONER than the bearing pivot, creating a condition that user would clean the debris before contamination had a chance to become physically embedded.
I freely admit that using a bearing system that requires no lube vs. lube is going to be better in a debris filled environment, AND that the air-gap created by the bearings vs. washers would allow compressed air to more easily blow out debris.
I would also admit that these newer types of bearing (without hollow metal cages) appear to be a superior application for a folding knife pivot. However, without introducing a flipper opener have little interest in bearing pivots (and I was early into the bearing knives with the Ikoma Korth Bearing System in Bali's and later adopted by CRKT in the First Production Acuto Steel frame-lock version Ripple by Ken Onion, later released as a aluminum handled liner-lock at significantly reduced MSRP.
I have had many fewer bearing pivot knives than washer and non-washer pivot knives combined, and have experienced more pivot issues with bearing knives than all others. Second in pivot related issues would be those with any type of plastic, phenolic, composite pivot components for the reasons mentioned above.
Those are my experiences over the last few decades.
YMMV with your own personal experiences.
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Insipid Moniker
,
RE: "Real world experience in which a bearing knife outperformed a knife with washers. You seem inclined to argue with the basic facts presented because of your preconceptions."I am speaking from my own personal experiences, not as you mention "because of your preconceptions."
I suppose ..., if I have any prejudices based on my experiences, those could be classified a "preconceptions" (so, I give you a little there my friend ;-)
I just don't see "basic facts" presented that any of the pivot assemblies mentioned are "better" without an understanding of specific application and use (bearings do roll better than flat washers however ;-)
Not even mentioned the plethora of writings of others, and multitude of videos over the years related to various issues others have had with bearing pivots on folders (uhm ..., how about we consider the various Spyderco debacles with bearing, and/or ..., etc.). Yes, bearing pivots have gotten much better over the years. I still believe they are a solution to a problem that did not exist before flipper knives, and personally prefer NFF Knives (Non-Flipper-Folder) even though I do own a few bearing flippers ;-)
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I strongly disagree. If we're going back to science we have to remember that controlled, double blind studies may be the gold standard, but given that there are many situations where such studies are impossible or unethical, observational studies are frequently used and no less important. This is a single data point, which means it's very far from definitive, but it allows us to examine the other variables and take them into consideration for future observations. If we insist on the kind of testing you're discussing before drawing any conclusions whatsoever, we'll likely be waiting forever as it will probably never happen. Therefore, the best course of action is to inform ourselves with the evidence available and remain open to reassessing our opinions as new evidence becomes available.
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First off, there is no photo proof of “real world use.” Only of two cleaned disassembled knives.
Right now, this whole post is hearsay. I do trust that Stabman is telling the truth, but without evidence, how can you argue your point so “strongly?”
Absolutely no offence toward you
stabman
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From my initial read, it is my understanding the metal swarth was blown out fairly soon after contamination. Then a full disassembly was performed, then more cleaning, then photos. So little time/use between contamination, to point where action was compromised, and cleaning.
In my experiences over the decades, plastic (Nylon, phenolics, etc.) can fairly easily become impregnated with debris that is harder than itself over use.
One Age Old Example: would be a large number of Cold Steel knives I have either owned or worked on for others. Many come NIB with metal debris in the pivot area (at least up to circa ~2012 when my experiences with CS folders declined sharply). If the knives are dis/re-assed before too much use, the washers can be cleaned easily. After some amount of usage metal particulates can become physically embedded into the washer causing the washer to slightly mushroom around the debris and tighten the action. Over time, can cause galling to blade tang, liner, and/or frame.
Had the metal debris been allowed to remain in the pivot assemble of the Nylatron bearing knife, I would expect metal particulate embedment into the Nylon bearing race :-/
RE: "the Nylatron washers on this knife fit with no visible gaps, but some grit got in there. Not much, but then the greater contact surface area touching the pivoting area seems to have worked against things, making it really, really gritty."
I read that to say, the washers provided feedback that the pivot was contaminated and needed cleaning/maintenance BETTER/SOONER than the bearing pivot, creating a condition that user would clean the debris before contamination had a chance to become physically embedded.
I freely admit that using a bearing system that requires no lube vs. lube is going to be better in a debris filled environment, AND that the air-gap created by the bearings vs. washers would allow compressed air to more easily blow out debris.
I would also admit that these newer types of bearing (without hollow metal cages) appear to be a superior application for a folding knife pivot. However, without introducing a flipper opener have little interest in bearing pivots (and I was early into the bearing knives with the Ikoma Korth Bearing System in Bali's and later adopted by CRKT in the First Production Acuto Steel frame-lock version Ripple by Ken Onion, later released as a aluminum handled liner-lock at significantly reduced MSRP.
I have had many fewer bearing pivot knives than washer and non-washer pivot knives combined, and have experienced more pivot issues with bearing knives than all others. Second in pivot related issues would be those with any type of plastic, phenolic, composite pivot components for the reasons mentioned above.
Those are my experiences over the last few decades.
YMMV with your own personal experiences.
--------------------------------------------------------
RE: "Real world experience in which a bearing knife outperformed a knife with washers. You seem inclined to argue with the basic facts presented because of your preconceptions."
I am speaking from my own personal experiences, not as you mention "because of your preconceptions."
I suppose ..., if I have any prejudices based on my experiences, those could be classified a "preconceptions" (so, I give you a little there my friend ;-)
I just don't see "basic facts" presented that any of the pivot assemblies mentioned are "better" without an understanding of specific application and use (bearings do roll better than flat washers however ;-)
Not even mentioned the plethora of writings of others, and multitude of videos over the years related to various issues others have had with bearing pivots on folders (uhm ..., how about we consider the various Spyderco debacles with bearing, and/or ..., etc.). Yes, bearing pivots have gotten much better over the years. I still believe they are a solution to a problem that did not exist before flipper knives, and personally prefer NFF Knives (Non-Flipper-Folder) even though I do own a few bearing flippers ;-)
My thoughts too! Thank you for taking the time to write that out.