Tips on selling knives?

Roger,
you should apologize to Kyley. That's all.. I am not going to rehash.
You have earned a place of respect here.. Time to show why, and your constitution, i would say.
- This is not an attack against you. I have apologized myself in this thread, to Mike Snody.
It is about accountability, my friend. To yourself, and respect to those who share this board.
Thanks,
David

*thanks Lorien
 
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you better start by apologizing for spelling Kyley's name wrong David:p
I mean, really, how many times can a guy have his name misspelt before he completely loses it. Yeah, I know, I lost it a long time ago:D
 
Hi Kyley,

but are you telling me that you've never paid deposits to secure a knife?
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In 1987 I paid Steve Johnson $10 to get on the "books" for my order of two Sub-Hilt Fighters with Ivory. Price at the time $2,500.00...each.

In 1985 I paid I believe two makers "payments" for knives starting in January for delivery at the Blade Show. At the time I was one of those people who just found it easier to send the maker $50 a month so the knives would be paid off before the show. Also, I did this so I could get something as soon as the doors opened to try to slow my "Steel Lust" and allow me to actually get through the show with at least enough money to buy a knife or two.

Now that is not to say I did not buy Tens of Thousands of Dollars in handle material for knives. As well the first 5 Vanguard knives I did were all D/A folders. I bought all the screws, pivots, scales, thumb studs and maybe some if not all of the titanium. I did this to buy in bulk to save money on the folders. I saved right at $45 a knife for 50 knives. That was a savings of $2,225.00 because I bought in bulk!

To be fair I did get burned once doing something like this. I had several styles of blades cut in 440V for Al Polkowski to build for me. That did not work out.

Other than that no problems.

So to recap...$10 worth of "deposits" on several millions of dollars worth of custom knives.

I have heard from more makers than I can remember the phrase..."The hardest knife to make is the one that is paid for." One of the questions I will ask a new or newer maker is "do you take deposits?" A yes answer requires and explanation.

My 3 reasons for a deposit are there for both collectors and makers. As Roger pointed out Good Communication is worth more than any deposit.
 
I'd just like to point out that it's hardly surprising that a "custom knife entrepreneur" who is the field editor for two magazines and has moved "several millions of dollars worth of custom knives" isn't asked to put forth a deposit when dealing with clients. This doesn't compare with a maker choosing to ask a random international customer, who is unknown to the maker and has zero credibility, to put a small deposit down when they ask the maker to make them an expensive and time consuming item. We're not talking payment in full or even 50% with Kyley. We're talking something like $50 on a $300 item, which still leaves the bulk of the risk on the maker. To expect that you should take no risk is silly. Do you tell the bank that you want them to loan you money when you haven't even demonstrated you have a job, let alone collateral? You are asking the maker for a service and if they feel that a deposit is appropriate, that is their call. You are free to choose not to utilize their services. But do not pretend that this is poor business practice. It is standard operating procedure in a large number of industries.


Also, quote mining is an incredibly dishonest tactic, Roger.
 
it seems to be more common for full time makers to not take a deposit and for part time makers to take one. Kind of makes sense, the more I think about it.
Is that a fair generalization to make?
 
mindsmirror said:
Also, quote mining is an incredibly dishonest tactic, Roger.
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Not hardly. His full quote is there for all to see. At least, those willing to wade through its tedious entirety. I extracted the portions I wanted to address directly, and did so in sequence. The most contentious quote I asked him to confirm he really meant it - and to my disappointment, he did.

Weren't you the guy popping up here in a thread a while back to say how this maker's knives were better than anyone else's, and in particular, better than those of another identified maker? Or am I confusing you with a different person? If not, do you really think you're in a position to give lectures on "honest" conduct? You guys make quite a team.

Roger
 
I've yet to make a dishonest comment, Roger. I also never said what you've claimed I said and I didn't "pop up in a thread," I made it. There is no need to fake your uncertainty, you can simply state "you were the guy that did x, y and z." Instead, you play these games. Now, I'll admit that I can't be certain you're faking, but given the tone you've displayed and the fact that you later state "you guys make quite a team," it's quite obvious that's the most likely scenario. It's amazingly childish, Roger. I'm not seeing any point in continuing with you, as you're unable to see how incredibly rude you're being towards everyone else or you're simply unwilling to adjust your behavior.

What you did was to leave out critical parts of his statement such that the statement has a completely different tone and meaning. This is what the essence of quote mining is, and it's quite dishonest. Now, for me to say that, in my experience, a given knife maker's products have outperformed everything else I've owned, is a factual statement which isn't the least bit speculative on my part. The knives have, in fact, outperformed everything I own. Since I own a lot of different kinds of knives with different edge geometries, it is possible to get a decent picture for what does and doesn't perform well in the criteria I laid out. I state, quite clearly, in that very thread, that exceptions to my findings almost certainly exist. What you've done here is obfuscate my posts by summarizing them in a purposefully inaccurate manner. All you're demonstrating here is that you're done. You're now resorting to a logical fallacy (Ad Hominem, specifically the "Tu Quoque" fallacy), even if your summary of my previous post were true (Which it is not).
 
JParanee said:
I for one would like to see some of Mr Harris's work

Please post some up
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I never have, and never will post my work here. I have 700 videos for anyone to find if they want to. As has been said.. there are a huge quantity of good makers here for people to pick from. I am not interested in showing off, or trying to sell my knives here. I am too busy as it is, and I prefer people to find me rather than try and find the customer. I dont need the work, or the sales, and I do it for fun.

There is no possible need for me to display my tools to suffer commentary from people like Roger when I am insufficiently disposed of time to make all my back orders now.. Yes.. and every single one with a deposit from all the random people around the world that were able to verify that they are not children ordering pizza to the neigbours by making that deposit. ;)

Thanks.
 
Another good thread turns sour.

In my opinion, if a knifemaker feels he/she needs to require a deposit to reduce their risk it's nothing wrong with that.

If collectors (including myself) are against paying deposits, then just purchase knives from those knifemakers who don't require them .
There's probably never been a time in history where that's been more outstanding custom knife makers and the vast majority of them don't require deposits.

Why don't we just leave it at that and return to "Tips on selling knives"?
 
KyleyHarris said:
I never have, and never will post my work here. I have 700 videos for anyone to find if they want to. As has been said.. there are a huge quantity of good makers here for people to pick from. I am not interested in showing off, or trying to sell my knives here. I am too busy as it is, and I prefer people to find me rather than try and find the customer. I dont need the work, or the sales, and I do it for fun.

There is no possible need for me to display my tools to suffer commentary from people like Roger when I am insufficiently disposed of time to make all my back orders now.. Yes.. and every single one with a deposit from all the random people around the world that were able to verify that they are not children ordering pizza to the neigbours by making that deposit. ;)

Thanks.
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Not sure what the topography is like in NZ.

Here in the United States of America, many, many makers are regional successes that have no need for, nor ideas of, advertising, fundamental business practices or marketing. They simply attend a show, gathering, rendezvous, what have you, and make deliveries and take orders. Don Hanson III told me that was the way it was for his father, and I have known or known of maybe 15 makers that have rolled in that manner. Very few people here have ever heard of Keith "Twig" Davis, for instance.(He didn't take deposits).

You "display my tools to suffer commentary from people like Roger" because you do or do not have the stones to have your work appraised by some of the best eyes and best makers in the business. Because you, for little or no money, get honest feedback on where you sit in the world, by people that actually might know something, rather than hayseeds that fall for an "approach".

You are an insulting sack, Mr. Harris, I'll say it to your face, should we ever meet. You have almost completely FAILED to impress with your professional(insert sarcasm, lack of is more apropos) demeanor.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Not sure what the topography is like in NZ.

Here in the United States of America, many, many makers are regional successes that have no need for, nor ideas of, advertising, fundamental business practices or marketing. They simply attend a show, gathering, rendezvous, what have you, and make deliveries and take orders. Don Hanson III told me that was the way it was for his father, and I have known or known of maybe 15 makers that have rolled in that manner. Very few people here have ever heard of Keith "Twig" Davis, for instance.(He didn't take deposits).

You "display my tools to suffer commentary from people like Roger" because you do or do not have the stones to have your work appraised by some of the best eyes and best makers in the business. Because you, for little or no money, get honest feedback on where you sit in the world, by people that actually might know something, rather than hayseeds that fall for an "approach".

You are an insulting sack, Mr. Harris, I'll say it to your face, should we ever meet. You have almost completely FAILED to impress with your professional(insert sarcasm, lack of is more apropos) demeanor.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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LoL.. I am the insulting sack? I think you think too highly of yourself Mr Garsson, and I dont have a problem telling you either. I'm pretty certain you are the fellow not far back saying that because I have less posts I'm less worthy right? well I think that ranks you as far more insulting and lacking in substance. its a clear case of taking the word of someone you know, over the facts.

Its lucky for me based on the PM's I get that most people can actually see the light.

As to your appraisal issue.. what that really sounds like is that you feel you are better qualified than my customers to determine their quality? not only audacious, but ridiculous. You like to collect pretty shiny things, and my customers like to use things that work.
I dont need someone like you or Roger to pat me on the back sir, and thats what rubs you all the wrong way.
First your "buddy" misquotes a customer of mine claiming he said "im the best maker in the world" which was garbage. I might be.. but it was never said.
Then my customer was blatantly attacked by the same Roger on that misrepresentation.. Now you cry foul and say you are better than me with no more
substance that your other comments.
If you really wanted to appraise my work then you'd see as I posted that I actually have the stones to demonstrate my work.. not just take a photo and have it placed in a collection box.. is that the makers fault? no.. the maker probably hoped you'd use the knife. But of course what you meant was that by not posting my work here you dont get to play a demoralization game on the things that dont suit your collection tastes.

because you do or do not have the stones to have your work appraised by some of the best eyes and best makers in the business. Because you, for little or no money, get honest feedback on where you sit in the world, by people that actually might know something, rather than hayseeds that fall for an "approach".
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The only insulting sacks are people like you.. You just sat there and declare that only bladeforum members are capable of being the best eyes and makers.. You then automatically put down all my customers as being Hayseeds that fall for an "approach". I think you are so used to soaking up the mutual coolaid that you dont actually know how to communicate with people outside your square and dont realise your attitude is the FAIL.

How insulting can you get? Not much more than you I would think. This same tone shared by your buddy Roger.

You have a problem with the fact that I dont want to show my work here.. more deflection by you and your friend. How did this ever become about me?
I'll tell you.. its quite simple. I offered a business plan that is good, and successful and mutually benefical.

Roger didn't like it and made the entire approach personal in a very insulting way. it seems that some here dont actually like people thinking for themselves. You dont like my level of rudeness? measure it as a response to yourself and he and open the blinders.

My work is appraised by many makers who are likely better men than you. The difference is I dont need to have a bunch of people on a forum puff me up to know that I'm proud of my work. The only appraisal I need is from people using my work. How is it exactly that a topic about tips for selling knives comes to my fear of your approval? lol + 5..

I've never shown my work.. and I never intended to. I am a platinum member ONLY to support this site financially because I like to look at other knives. not because I gain a thing from it or want to sell. I came to this forum as a collector and owner.. not as a seller so to try and deflect like this shows what stones you miss. I wonder at your level of commitment to the knife community..

Like every other person here, you so easily call names, and say "I'll say it to your face" knowing you never will. You are very good at mouthing off.
Its very easy to talk big when you are in your group and have your bubble of respect to fall back on.

It grates on you that I dont need your approval.. thats very insightful..

What it really seems like here, is that none of you dont like to hear a maker think outside your box. I was courteous, polite, and helping the OP until you and your buddies decide to take the tone. Ironic isn't it, that I'm the bad person for replying in kind.

Best Regards back.
 
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Mr. Harris I truly believe that you and your customer came on here to draw attention to your work and I am sure that your U Tube vids might be a tad busy of late. So as they say any publicity is good publicity and everyone loves a soap opera so this thread has done you well.

I hope you sell some knives

But your attack of collectors on here saying they are only worshippers of shiny things not using knives is a rather brash statement and if you dont like it here why do you want to hang around.

I use knives I am not some kid in a dorm room cutting paper and I am a huge fan of convex edges but to be honest with ya your not a very polite fellow and your knives are crude to say the least. So I tihnk you would have been better off stating your opinions and not insulting people

You started off fine and actually made some sense but then ya opened up on Roger because he did not agree with ya when I was the biggest proponent of not making deposits under normal conditions

Btw a good working knife does not have to look like a 10 dollar knife from Pakistan

Sorry David but come on this has turned into a circus and some body is useing your thread to promote there work
 
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JParanee.. How exactly did you see me promoting my work? This thread was not about me at all. I made a basic comment on business practise.. Roger and like turned this into a circus by approaching my style personally and took it to me.. To Be quote blunt about it.. the attitude you all have to not simply accepting my view and having your own is what turned this thread.

There was no reason for me to be interrogated on my practise at all, or this to ever come down to my work, or any other makers.. You, and He and the Others, brought the work and quality, and ethics into this discussion.

I honestly dont know if I will hang around here as it is certainly leaving you, and I, with an unnecessary sour taste.
As I made it clear.. I am not here to sell knives.. I came here to enjoy looking at threads about the knives I like to buy.. yes.. I buy knives from people.. crazy..

Certainly.. I can be as rude as the next.. so I'd just say go back and find a single point I was rude before a certain person started saying taking deposits lacked integrity.

You are welcome to call my knives crude, and it doesn't effect me at all.. as I said.. you are not my customer.. if you dont like what I do, then neither of us looses.. and the fact that this became about my knives and myself is quite weird. you may not like my stuff and I'm quite good with that.. and never having the opportunity to try my stuff, you simply cannot know that your statements are factual. I am content that people who have my work that also own a large number of other stuff prefer mine more even though it "looks" crude, and is cheaper. I have nothing to prove.

Just because I enjoy coming here to look at custom work I might want to buy, and other production knives in now way means I want to sell you anything..

I certainly did not open up on Roger.. I sure felt he ripped me a new one for no reason though..

This is certainly a circus.. it wasnt about the deposits.. it was about Rogers continued misrepresentation of what i said to suit himself.
 
RogerP said:
And what is it that tells them that you are ready to make the knife - to do so skillfully, not sloppily - to make the knife that meets the parameters of the order and to do so in a timely fashion? What security againstthe potential failure to meet your obligations do you offer? Will you let them hold a piece of stag and a block of ironwood pending completion of the order as a means of demonstrating you are "ready to go"? Yes, this last bit is facetious, but it underscores the double standard of demanding scurity against forfeiture while not providing the same.

Roger
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Already covered that. The fact that I have already worked with the customer on design over the course of days or weeks, the fact that I inform them that I will refund the deposit if for any reason I can't deliver (WHICH I PUBLICLY PROCLAIM HERE, so if I fail in this regard, may the customer feel free to tear me up one side and down the other, driving me out of business), the fact that I have told them I am ready to begin. Many of my customers are on another forum, where I participate daily. If I fail to deliver as I have said I would, it will be very publicly known. The fact that they have seen every piece of work I have made so far since joining that forum and they know the kind of work I do shows them whether I am likely to be sloppy or not. You buying from makers who you don't know whether their work is sloppy? I don't think you liekly are, given your list of purchases you mentioned.

As for selling a knife that a customer backs out on, yes, hopefully. But a new knifemaker may have a harder time of that than one whose name is widely recognized as being a top-notch maker. It's not necessarily a knock of their craftsmanship, but there are some other logistics involved in making a sale.

Anyone think this thread has become tedious from all sides? :rolleyes:

I'll re-iterate my actual contribution to the original question:

"What advice would you offer to a new maker who is trying to carve out some success?


Please offer "words of wisdom" and insights into the business of selling knives, helpful tips and/or pitfalls to avoid- esp. from the veterans among us.. For the benefit of new makers.

Many thanks,
David "

1. Make sure that as many people see your work as possible. You cannot have sales without generating interest first.

2. *IF* you are in the practice of taking a deposit (and many have advised both against and for doing so), don't do so until you are ready to do the work. All of the problems those who dislike deposits have experienced *SEEM* like they come from a maker taking a deposit and then not delivering a knife. By waiting until you are ready to work, you are limiting the amount of things that can go wrong and cause you to not deliver in a timely fashion after taking the deposit. In any case, it would be foolish to deliver a finished knife to a customer without receiving any kind of payment for the knife already, unless it's something like giving it to a buddy who'll pay you when he can.

I have made what useful contribution I can. Accept what is useful, reject what is not. I'll keep an eye on the thread, but don't plan to add more to it unless I come up with something more that is pertinent to the original question.
 
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I'm left wondering why the world of knife collecting is so different from any other contracting business.
I've been a micro-businessman all my life, and the standard for $2-5000 work is a third down, a third at an agreed-upon time part way through, and a third upon completion.
I'd feel silly asking for a deposit on a sub-$1000 order...
Oh, I think I get it: anyone who is selling knives for over 1k shouldn't have trouble selling a knife that the orderer backed out of.

The thing to remember is that an artisan is extending credit to the customer, with his time and resources.
If some random person comes out of nowhere and asks me to do thousands of dollars of work, I find out as much as I can about that person (not that difficult nowadays).
Someone like Roger probably has an excellent reputation, why would I ask him for a deposit, unless he wants something really off the wall? I'd be thrilled to take an order from a good customer.

And I'll say it again: If I can't sell something I made, I'd better take a good hard look at why.

Random thoughts, sad to see such an interesting topic go south...
Andy
 
Mr Harris I did not see where Roger singled out any one maker for taking deposits he stated that he does not and for that matter nor do I believe in them. You actually made some very good points about taking them and all was well but then things went south.

But honestly did your vids get a little more play since this thread ? Come on tell the truth

Like I said any publicity is good publicity and making a splash on the largest custom knife forum going will garner some attention

Come on your obviously a pretty smart fellow you know what your doing and I see nothing wrong with it just admit since you and your buddy been playing around it's garnered you some attention
 
I leave the room for a couple of days and all Hell breaks loose?

I will chime in, hope no one ganks me....
I am part time, I do not take deposits. But I am small, simple and my knives look like they were hand wrought by a guy living in a cave.

But if one chooses to or chooses not to take deposits or buy knives from makers who do, that is their choice. There are pros and cons to everything, I think they were discussed. You all made great points, let's see if we can come up with more?

No one wins when arguing on the web, you may gain a customer who feels just like you feel, but lose ten because they are put off by attitude, aggression, etc. As Mike Snody said, the world is watching. I for one want them to always think positively of me.

peAce
 
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