Tips on selling knives?

I can think of one instance of where, if the knife maker had asked me for a deposit, I'd have a really cool knife now. But due to my inexperience, I was tempted by another knife while I was waiting which cost a little less and blew my money on it instead. If I'd had a deposit in with the guy who I'd originally wanted to buy a knife from, I would've resisted temptation and stuck to my guns, probably with a better knife than the one I ended up getting.

All that being said, I generally deal with knife makers who don't require a deposit. They'll agree to taking one, if it makes me, as their customer, feel better but don't as a hard and fast rule require any form of upfront payment.
 
Let say I make a knife for someone and they decline or disappear. It happens.

If I can't sell the knife fairly quick, it is my fault, not the guy who ordered it.

BTW, you can't run fast enough to give me a deposit on an order. :D
 
This subject always becomes a minefield, when the reality is that not all makers can afford to take the same risks in regards to laying out time and money on a custom piece. A responsible business plan takes one's business reality into account, not just principles that are dictated by past deals gone bad. The pattern of this argument always seems to circle that truth without actually addressing it. A well known and well established maker can afford to take risks that a smaller guy would frankly be a fool to take.
 
Justin King said:
The folks who seem to be really polarized about the subject of deposits are pretty much universally expressing a lack of faith in the other party. This is a poor basis for any business deal, IMO. Personally, I don't expect a prospective customer to put 100% trust in me, but would drop a discussion on a custom project in a heartbeat upon being held to account for the bad practices of another maker. Just food for thought, if you actively distrust someone, perhaps you shouldn't do business with them to begin with. We aren't talking about a base necessity like food or health care, from the customer's perspective, so there is always the option to abstain altogether if the risks are unnacceptable. A full time maker is a bit more hemmed in in making this decision, because his food and health care is derived from his profits.
I have had customers offer deposits and/or payment up front, and this tells me something about that customer, even though I often decline. The willingness is more important to me than the money changing hands at that point. I'm all for limited risks, but a complete lack of faith will kill a deal for me.
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I'm with you for the most of that, but as to the first part of your post, I think it is the ones insisting on a deposit that are exhibiting distrust. My custom knife orders are very much characterized by mutual trust and respect. The makers don't insist on some form of security against my failing to fulfill my financial obligations, and I don't insist on some form of security against their failing to make the knife. They trust me to pay and I trust them to make a knife to the best of their skill and ability that fulfills the order placed. Each party trusts the other to do their part. It's the presence of a mandatory deposit - not its absence - that declares a lack of trust. Then again, I'm pretty much exclusively working with makers whose integrity can't be purchased for $50. They feel an obligation to fulfill an order because they are professionals and men of character.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
I'm with you for the most of that, but as to the first part of your post, I think it is the ones insisting on a deposit that are exhibiting distrust. My custom knife orders are very much characterized by mutual trust and respect. The makers don't insist on some form of security against my failing to fulfill my financial obligations, and I don't insist on some form of security against their failing to make the knife. They trust me to pay and I trust them to make a knife to the best of their skill and ability that fulfills the order placed. Each party trusts the other to do their part. It's the presence of a mandatory deposit - not its absence - that declares a lack of trust. Then again, I'm pretty much exclusively working with makers whose integrity can't be purchased for $50. They feel an obligation to fulfill an order because they are professionals and men of character.

Roger
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I can respect that. I have been on both sides of this myself, having been burned for over 1000 $ by a blade maker years ago. I will never ask a customer to pay in full up front after that experience, but from the perspective of a maker, if working with your design, they are invested in that project with both time and money
the moment they take steel to the bandsaw. Some can afford to eat this if the deal goes south, others may literally be taking food from their families's mouths if the customer fails to pay, and may feel the need for you to be invested in the project at the point when they are.
I recently asked a customer for a 25$ deposit on a piece with an out-sized blade because it would leave me with an unuseably short cutoff from the bar of steel. I planned to make x number of pieces this month, and to take on this order would force me to back this number down, or order another piece of material, which I did not figure expenses for. In this case I feel the deposit was perfectly reasonable, and was even willing to eat the 8$ or 10$ value on the cutoff, if I could get more material ordered and maintain production this month. I haven't got an answer from him and probably won't at this point.
This is the thought process I have to go through on a single order of less than 300$ total value. Some well known makers could and probably would charge 500-600$ for a similar piece and could afford the risk without a deposit, when it would be irresponsible to myself and my family, for me to do the same.
My advice to the OP, if he is still reading this, is to do what responsibilty dictates, and be prepared to adjust your business plan to fit your reality. You don't start out at the top in this business, and your plan has to fit your place in the market, as well as offer a way to broaden your customer base. The advice given here is all from legitimate perspectives, but not all of it will work for a guy trying to break into the market, and what works for that guy may not make sense for someone who already has his corner of the market carved out.
 
Roger, I would love to welcome any man as my brother and any woman as my sister and not have to worry about anyone ever doing something they aren't supposed to. But I *know* people that act like the most loveable little fuzzball you will ever meet, who will smile, ask you to do a multi-thousand dollar job, and then take their product and tell you they can't pay. When they are subcontracting the work to you as part of a larger project, and should have budgeted it to the customer. Who do so over and over, burning just about any people with whom they do business. (This is outside of knifemaking, but we're talking business practices.)

If I don't know someone from Adam, and I have had multiple people enthusiastic about an order that then have real life hit them upside the head and make them back out of purchasing a knife that I have spent time to help design to make sure it suits exactly what they want, how does that reflect poorly on *my* integrity to ask for a deposit to let me know that they are serious about an order?

Seriously, there is more than one way to conduct business and some are better than others. But I don't get why it means that you have less integrity to ask for a deposit.

It's not integrity being purchased; it's a sure sign that yes, indeed the customer is ready to begin the project. I've had more than one voluntarily send me the whole price up front. Usually I hang onto that check or money order until the job is competed. They've been very happy with their purchases.

You can disagree about whether a deposit is a good thing or bad, you can cite examples of dishonest or unlucky knifemakers who have taken deposits and then not produced a blade, but to think that the policy of asking for a deposit *necessarily* brands you as someone who lacks integrity is something I can't understand.
 
Justin,

I get that makers feel the need to protect themselves against knives made to order and not paid for.

But I find that communication can go a long way toward mitigating that (though it will never be eliminated - there are a few bad eggs on both sides of that fence). Contact the customer just before you start working on his order to confirm the details. This is smart because it gives both parties the chance to get on the same page and check for any changes to the original request. It is also smart because it gives the maker the chance to sound out the buyer for any emerging flakiness. The guy won't get back to you all of a sudden? Hmmm - maybe smart to move on to the next guy on the list until he does.

My question though, is how much protection makers really think they are getting with a $50 deposit against a $500, $600, $1,000 knife? Assuming the guy isn't just playing some cruel game at the outset, he will pay you that $50 at the beginning when he is all keen on the project. Is that going to stop him from flaking after the fact when he's found he's got less money than he thought, or has fallen out of love with the original order, or whatever might explain (not excuse) buyer backout? Nope. Is that guy going to go ahead and find another $450 that he can no longer afford for a knife he no longer wants? Nope. And you are all of $50 better off. Is that the difference between you and your family starving? Nope.

Deposits work in certain situations, which Les outlined earlier. For me - outside those circumstances, they simply don't. Nobody has a gun to anyone's head. Maker's can choose to demand deposits if they wish. As Joe pointed out, we have LOTS of choice among makers who don't. And we definitely have a HUUUUGE selection of makers who aren't motivated by the deposit and little else.

Roger
 
Storm Crow said:
You can disagree about whether a deposit is a good thing or bad, you can cite examples of dishonest or unlucky knifemakers who have taken deposits and then not produced a blade, but to think that the policy of asking for a deposit *necessarily* brands you as someone who lacks integrity is something I can't understand.
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Let me be clear. Asking for deposits DOES NOT IN ANY WAY BRAND YOU AS SOMEONE WHO LACKS INTEGRITY. Please refer to the context of those comments. Stating that 'if I don't have your money, I have little obligation to get the work done' - or whatever the exact quote was - THAT illuminates the question of integrity quite differently.

Roger
 
Your logic isn't flawed, it's just coming from a different perspective from mine. In the case I mentioned above, the completion time on this piece would be about 2 weeks. I don't do long waiting lists and won't ask for money unless I'm ready to start a piece.
The 25 or 50$ deposit may not make the difference between my family eating or not next month, it makes the difference between me being able to order more material now, or later, which in turn affects my bottom line one or 2 months down the road. Business decisions are not always simple but do always have a result, positive or negative. Make enough of them wrong, and your business will edge into the red, fast or slow.
 
I think you're taking issue with the phrase by looking at it from a certain direction. If you have a car for sale in front of your house, are you obligated to get the title ready to transfer any time someone stops to look at the price? You don't have an obligation to until they agree to buy it. This doesn't mean you are unpleasant to them, ignore them, or are trying to sell them a lemon. It just means that until you find out they aren't just kicking tires, you aren't obligated to give them the keys and the title.

A deposit tells me clearly that they are ready for me to get to work and ready to complete the purchase when the work is finished.

Your mileage may vary.

You could take the phrase in question badly, but I didn't, and don't think it was meant that way. But I can't speak for someone else's train of thought, just my own.
 
Justin King said:
Your logic isn't flawed, it's just coming from a different perspective from mine.
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Yes - which is why I find Les' perspective (which is different from both of ours) particularly valuable. He has been in the business of selling custom knives as a profession for a long time. He has worked with a great many makers and seen not only success and failure but the factors which contribute to both play out far many more times than you or I likely ever will. He says deposits are a bad idea except in certain identified circumstances. I think he's right. And I think the experience and perspective he brings to the table lends a good deal of weight to that conclusion.

Storm Crow said:
You could take the phrase in question badly, but I didn't, and don't think it was meant that way. But I can't speak for someone else's train of thought, just my own.
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I didn't want to take it badly. In fact, I said that I hoped he didn't mean what he had literally said. But he dug his heels in and confirmed it in block capitals. I don't think there's any remaining question on how it was meant. Neither of us need speak for someone else's train of thought. That someone else has spoken volumes for himself - literally and figuratively.

Roger
 
Storm Crow said:
A deposit tells me clearly that they are ready for me to get to work and ready to complete the purchase when the work is finished.
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And what is it that tells them that you are ready to make the knife - to do so skillfully, not sloppily - to make the knife that meets the parameters of the order and to do so in a timely fashion? What security againstthe potential failure to meet your obligations do you offer? Will you let them hold a piece of stag and a block of ironwood pending completion of the order as a means of demonstrating you are "ready to go"? Yes, this last bit is facetious, but it underscores the double standard of demanding scurity against forfeiture while not providing the same.

Roger
 
I'm going to bow out of this. While not exactly off topic, the discussion is no longer addressed to the OP and I sense is going to continue in circles if it continues at all. Roger, I don't get the idea that you buy in the same market I sell in, which explains a lot. I don't see right or wrong here, just that not every customer and every maker are moving in a compatible direction at any given time. Hopefully there is enough room in the market for everyone to get what they are looking for.
Knowing what this is is important to getting there.
 
Wow this has really flared up alot of opinions

lets just say trust is earned and as much as you makers aren't gonna want to hear this the customer is alwys right. So when I call up a maker and he asks for a deposit he is saying to me I dont trust you from the get go. It might work for Randall or a company like Black Widow Bows that have a prouduction team so if one person gets sick or what ever the orders are still completed. But in every case of a Maker not making good and falling from Grace it is because he took deposits or payments for knives and then something happened and bam no refunds no prouduct and a bad reputation. This is not an isolated incident this has happened to many makers out there.

I don't order knives from makers that I could not as a buyer sell and get my money back. So if I did back out of an order which I have never done a maker could easily sell the knife and probale for more because they have a long wait and there work in desirable.

As a maker if some kid calls up and wants a double fanged flying death claw knife that as a maker you think is a stupid project and have doubts you could sell it if he backs out don't make it. Every great maker I know has his limits on what he will put his name on and if it is so bad ya could not sell it why would you put your name on it.

Bottum line is to each his own but my advice to new makers trying to make it in the knife world is to not charge deposits unless the rules that Les mentioned apply

For new collector don't deal with makers that require a deposit because you will eventually get burned

Sorry folks but almost 30 years doing this stuff this is what I have learned
 
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I have to go back to the beginning of this thread and read all the other aspects and points... but I thought I would just say how I do deposits. Due to the nature of my internet marketing... I have no real clue who the majority of the people are who contact me and often they come from all over the world. In the case of these true unknowns.. people who discovered me through means other than knife related forums, shows, etc... I ask for a deposit. I'm not that strict in terms of what the actual amount is.. but I like to have something down. However... when dealing with known collectors, people with a solid place in the in knife community, or people with a known reputation on any of the forums... I don't bother. It's something I started doing simply because it seemed like the right, and normal, thing to do at the time. But as I gain increased confidence in my ability to find a home for knife without a customer... I can see dropping it. Anyway.. carry on this very interesting thread :-)
 
Roger,
On a personal note, anyone reading this thread might get the idea about you that you throw fits when you do not get your way. In something as simple as a conversation your tendency to slant things toward your own perspective and insult someone who has just stuck his neck out to explain his rules of business is disappointing, to say the least. Either you have an anger management issue, or simply cannot afford (ego-wise) to let others have differing views. And, this is not an isolated thing with you. -Now, i say this with the hope that you intend to be helpful. IF you do, i hope you will take more moments of reflection. Read your tone. I am not saying your experience is redundant, only that you have chosen a negative tone through this thread. There is a way to be respectful in disagreement. This never includes a belittling comment made about someone's name! And, i believe an apology is in order-

Kyley, thank you for your perseverance and intelligent responses. Again, i am not a new maker- just a collector. I was passing along a topic at the outset of this thread, thinking i might be doing someone a favor. And hoping to stimulate a conversation to benefit new makers.. The deposit issue is a topic of disagreement. I doubt we will settle it to one single conclusion.

Anyone have anything else to say, or should i lock it up?
David
 
2knife said:
Roger,
On a personal note, anyone reading this thread might get the idea about you that you throw fits when you do not get your way. In something as simple as a conversation your tendency to slant things toward your own perspective and insult someone who has just stuck his neck out to explain his rules of business is disappointing, to say the least. Either you have an anger management issue, or simply cannot afford (ego-wise) to let others have differing views. And, this is not an isolated thing with you. -Now, i say this with the hope that you intend to be helpful. IF you do, i hope you will take more moments of reflection. Read your tone. I am not saying your experience is redundant, only that you have chosen a negative tone through this thread. There is a way to be respectful in disagreement. This never includes a belittling comment made about someone's name! And, i believe an apology is in order-

Kyley, thank you for your perseverance and intelligent responses. Again, i am not a new maker- just a collector. I was passing along a topic at the outset of this thread, thinking i might be doing someone a favor. And hoping to stimulate a conversation to benefit new makers.. The deposit issue is a topic of disagreement. I doubt we will settle it to one single conclusion.

Anyone have anything else to say, or should i lock it up?
David
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David - your jumping in with a cheap shot is hardly surprising. You complain about me insulting someone else, but say nothing about my being painted as a bad client who takes advantage of makers duress and leaves makers holding the bag for unpaid orders. All without a shread of support. I'm sure you are very okay with that, since you are taking the opportunity to pile on. You're just a peach, David. If the foregoing sounded negative, it was very much intended.

Roger
 
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