Tips on selling knives?

Wow, looks like there's the potential of some danders getting up. :)

Kyley I think makes some good points, and while I don't think exactly the way he has indicated in this thread, I do pretty darn close.

I have customers come to me, having seen my other work, asking for a price range for what they want. I will give them a price minimum based on blade size, discuss design with them, make sketches, and go back and forth to make sure we're clear on what they want before I give them a final price. I tell them what my policy on payment is, usually, in the first communication. I wait until I am ready to begin before I ask for the deposit. I start working when I get it, update them with photos of the progress, and when completed, I ship it as soon as I recieve the other part of the payment. I have had several that, during the design phase, have had to back out because of some financial difficulty hitting them. If I had started on the knife, I would have been stuck with their blade, hoping they might eventually come back.

The deposit tells me that they are serious about making the purchase. It means I can at least cover materials if they have to back out. I don't begin work until I get it, and I don't ask for it until I am ready to work on it.

The attention I give the customer in the design process and with the updates tells them that *I* am serious. They see their blade being shaped and know how things are going on it. I don't give them an exact date (as Kyley pointed out, life isn't that static) but I will tell them that with "all going well" it should be done within a certain time frame.

If I am unable to deliver for whatever reason, I will refund their deposit. I have never had to do this so far. If they back out for whatever reason, I keep the deposit. I've also never had to do this. I hope I never have to do either in my career, but either way both I and the customer are protected.

So simply assuming that a maker wanting a deposit is a blanket warning that you're going to get screwed is not valid, I think. This is where feedback becomes very important. And as Kyley also pointed out, there are plenty of other businesses where paying a deposit on a custom item is not considered odd at all.

Your mileage may vary.
 
personally, I've paid up front on a number of occasions and so far it hasn't been a problem. I seek out knife makers who are trustworthy, and I do my research to ensure they are that, then I get to know them, just to make for sure for sure. Usually, there is an immediate connection, because there is something in their knives which tells their story as well. For me, it's more knife maker, than knife when dealing direct. There's lots of great knives out there, some of which were made by total assholes, but if I'm dealing direct, there is only one knife and one knife maker at that particular moment of time, and if I don't get it right and make an error in character judgement then crappy deal for me. I won't deal with those who disparage their clients or their potential clients. Character and integrity are relatively easy to establish in another person, although it does take some work sometimes. Internet really helps.
 
I have been involved in custom knives,guns and bows and many other things for almost 30 years and the only time I ever had an issue was when I paid up front.

Just a year or so ago I ordered a custom whip guy required some money well guess what no whip no phone calls I got burned

I can pick up the phone call any number of fantastic Makers order a knife and not have to produce a deposit so why would I even take a risk on a maker that needs a deposit

Any maker I am ordering a knife from is not gonna get stuck with it there work is usually in high demand therefore very easy to get rid of if need be

So I will say again I will not pay a deposit unless I am requesting unusual materials

Btw I would send Roger any knife in my collection no matter what worth and not worry about getting paid his credibility is not in question here he is just stating an opinion shared by many
 
Les,

You are a man of great knowledge so I'm surely not going to argue with you on your advise. each of us can only offer our personal experiences and successes.. I can only offer my perspective.. My perspective is as a seller, whereas your perspective is as a prospective buyer of the custom knife. 2 sides of the coin which must find a balance.

I can understand never paying for a knife in full.. but are you telling me that you've never paid deposits to secure a knife?

You are the one that said a good business plan is essential. The failures you are referring to of knifemakers that have issues and dont get the money back to the client are all Bad business policies of the maker, not a bad policy on the deposit. Any maker taking deposit should make sure they have the liquidity to cover refunds for deposits that go south because of a fault by the maker. I think its hard advise to tell a seller that they have to wear the failings of the buyer, yet they must in turn act themselves in a fashion that shows a lack of trust from the buyer. Another good business plan is to not take so many orders that you are hording deposits. Also to not take so many orders that you cannot see a completion time in the near future.. these are all failings of a business plan and have nothing to do with a deposit structure.

if my queue is long, then I dont take orders or deposits.. I take names.. When the queue is down to 1 month or 2 months, then I may start taking orders and deposits.. My system works because there are checks and rules in place.. The failings of others due to bad planning cannot be applied to the system when put properly in place..

you may also have a maker that takes 100 orders with no deposit, and then these people are relying on their orders filled.. because no money changed hands, and no contract (deposits are in effect a form of contract) Then the maker may choose to just lift roots and walk away because its too hard, leaving everyone in the lurch.. You dont loose your deposit, but you may loose time, money, or resell clients because of this. No method is better than the other with a bad business plan.

But I have to say that all your good advise seems more targeted at how a buyer should behave and then force makers to behave if they want to make a sale. it typically puts the purchaser in the best position but it can also force the seller to inflate to prices to cover this fact. This is not good or bad, its just a different angle. its an angle that puts the selling in a position of need.

I am certain I have not purchased anywhere near as many knives as you.. Only a small number.. but the makers I purchased from all got advance payments.

Buyer Beware is always the best policy.. but equally so is seller beware.. As this was from someone wanting advice on selling.. then the real advise should be to be careful of dodgy buyers.. not telling the maker to set himself up as though he is untrustworthy.

Success is not always measured by the popularity of the product on a forum, or a magazine. Its a big world with lots of options for a new maker. The real driving question will be.. are you trying to make a livelihood, or just a sideline and enjoyment. I think trying to make knife making a full time business that's profitable has to be a seriously hard thing.

I have to wonder.. if all the makers out there decided that their rule of thumb was to take a deposit.. I really cant imagine you all flocking to another hobby in droves because of the indignation of the maker seeking to look after their own concerns by taking a deposit, or a cancellation fee, or whatever you might call it..

Ask youself if you are not willing to pay a deposit, are you willing to guarantee the maker a cancellation fee if you opt to cancel at any time after commencement of the job, or materials ordered. There is a reason so many makers dont make it.. and its not because they make bad knives or are dishonest, or bad management.. Most businesses fail because they dont have the funds.
 
KyleyHarris said:
Ask youself if you are not willing to pay a deposit, are you willing to guarantee the maker a cancellation fee if you opt to cancel at any time after commencement of the job, or materials ordered.
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Yes, I am. I'm not willing to pay a deposit because...many makers are NOT sound businessmen, although I have seen practices change to some degree with social networking and forums passing information on very quickly

KyleyHarris said:
There is a reason so many makers don't make it.. and its not because they make bad knives or are dishonest, or bad management.. Most businesses fail because they dont have the funds.
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Many businesses are underfunded...not the fault of the collector, the fault of the businessman.

At this point, RogerP has a significantly stronger track record of paying for knives ordered than you do of knives delivered because he has been practically LIVING in the community public eye for some close to 10 years now....you signed up 3 years ago. This counts for something at this time.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
RogerP said:
Aren’t we precious. Guess you have never made a typo, Kyley.

Roger
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I dont think its precious to ask people take some effort to get a name right. I've put up with my name being mangled on 90% of the posts I make here so I dont think typo sums it up..



EDIT: redacted, im not here to argue.
 
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Kohai999 said:
Yes, I am. I'm not willing to pay a deposit because...many makers are NOT sound businessmen, although I have seen practices change to some degree with social networking and forums passing information on very quickly



Many businesses are underfunded...not the fault of the collector, the fault of the businessman.

At this point, RogerP has a significantly stronger track record of paying for knives ordered than you do of knives delivered because he has been practically LIVING in the community public eye for some close to 10 years now....you signed up 3 years ago. This counts for something at this time.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Steven, your issue on funding may be correct.. And I am glad you are willing to put up if you cancel.. but to the maker, your word is also only as good as the finances.. at a minimum a buyer should be willing to Escrow the money to show good faith and ability to pay if we were being fair.

but I will point out again.. I've never sold a knife here.. never tried.. I'm sure there are some that own my knives here.
This forum, no matter how many members. is a tiny tiny spec on the planet of knife users.
While RogerP and a thousand others may have more posts, and more track record on this forum, that really cant count for anything relating to business practices of knife selling. My Personal Track Record as a seller on this forum doesn't play into this discussion any more than RogerP's buying credit.

there are a vast number of knifemakers and knife sellers with no presence on this or many other forums and to say that this removes the validity of their worth of practices isn't logical at all.

His opinon may hold more weight for this group on the basis of him buying or selling something here, but the OP didn't ask about selling knives on a forum..

All the best..

I have no intention of converting what was an interesting thread into a Person to Person argument with Roger, or anyone else.
 
On the other hand, there's less chance of getting a pool cue across your head if a fight breaks out. :D

Opinions are strong on this. Let's make sure it stays civil, folks.
 
Storm Crow said:
On the other hand, there's less chance of getting a pool cue across your head if a fight breaks out. :D

Opinions are strong on this. Let's make sure it stays civil, folks.
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I fully agree. :)
I've offered my opinion and dont have more to say of value. Time to get back to working.

All the best everyone.

*****Important--Please Read Before Ordering****** Current order deliveries are being scheduled for delivery in 56 MONTHS, year 2016. Randall order limit is a single knife every three months per household. Effective November 1, 2007, extra features are limited to five chargeable features per knife. We strongly recommend obtaining the catalog to view all features before placing an order. Model and feature change orders are limited and there is a charge for change orders. A deposit of US$50.00 per knife is required to place an order. Deposits are not transferable and non-refundable. Credit card user name must match the individual's name placing the order. Shipping charges are determined by Randall Made Knives in the year of delivery. Mimimum age to order is 16 years old.
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Just thought I'd post the current ordering Criteria for anyone that thinks a required $50 deposit is a bad idea.. Randall seems to make it work for them quite well. As I said.. its a business plan that does work.. there are many others.. but you can't argue this is a bad one, even if you dont like it.

You can buy a randall from a shop for about 30% more of course to avoid a deposit.
 
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Hello Kyley, my name is Rich Slaughter.. I tend to spend far more time on the forum reading posts than I do writing, but I've read all your replies on this thread, and the back and forth concerning deposits and such.... When I saw this particular quote by you......

Kyley Wrote:
"Someone above said that a good policy is (paraphrasing) "to always do the best you can".. Well in business I have to fully disagree.. What if as an ABS mastersmith, the best that you can do always results in a $6000 knife that most cannot afford.. Where-as you are fully cabable of creating numerous $100 knives that are far below your best, yet are still highly functional and affordable tools for a life time.. In business its not about doing your best.. but in providing Value-added service or goods at a price point and level of finish people want. If I made only knives to the best of my ability I doubt I'd sell more than 1 a month."

I think you are equating your capabilities at the top end of your skill level, and then thinking for a lower priced knife, you have to tone those skills down.. I myself think "always doing your best" is good advice for life in general, and especially in business, and yet you stated that you disagreed with that.. If you have a customer that wants a two hundred dollar knife, and you use Les's suggestion about margin calculation, (materials, time management, etc), then within those parameters of profit you should "do the best you can" doing the 200.00 knife... Right? If I misunderstood, or the quote I used was out of context I'm sorry.. It just stuck me as odd to hear someone disagree with the statement "You should always do the best you can in business" Best Regards, Rich
 
Rich.. I think you are right, and that was partially what I meant.. but my point is.. if you are someone like Murry Carter for example that can sell a small necker for $400USD and someone wants a $200 one then you can do a good job, but its certainly not going to be a reflection of the best you can do.. You may leave a rough finish, rougher handles.. basically like a semi-made knife allowing the user to dress it up at their discretion.. but the point is.. that knife may be as functionally good as the $400 one, but to a laymens eye look like a piece of junk until they use it.. you can provide a great $200 knife, but it wont be the $400 knife if they are both done to equal finish.. but you can downgrade the finish (ie not your best work on the $400 knife to price it at $200) and in a bad economy someone that wants a good knife not a collectible wants this option.

So.. you may be putting your best effort and motivation in yes, but you are not doing your best. you are doing what the price point affords. I hope that makes sense. My point is. by doing less than your skill permits, you may actually be doing better in business. doing the best in business is giving somebody something they are happy with for the price that does the job, but is not always doing the best you can.
 
I think we are seeing it the same.. You will do your "very best" within the budget.. (You are not the Red Cross, or some other not for profit concern..), you need to make money.. If your customer can spend 200.00 then you will "do your best" to build him the best knife he can afford.. It will have lower cost materials, a basic finish, and maybe no sheath, etc.. However, you won't use "shortcuts" to construct it.. Rich
 
I'll throw a bit of perspective in on this one. What I think Kyley does with many of his lower priced knives is to reduce the amount of labor spent on processes which are unnecessary to the performance of the knife. This is what he means by "not doing your best," so to speak. Kyley puts time into designing a good blade profile and selecting good materials. Then he grinds the knife to suit its application, has it heat treated appropriately and then he finishes the knife. All of the steps before finishing are done to the best of his abilities. The finishing, however, is done to the level of detail required by the customer (Or, sometimes, dictated by the design and intent of the knife). The finishing is where he can save the customer a great deal of money and I believe this is what he is really focusing on when he talks about "doing your best."

If he always did every knife to the best of his abilities in every possible aspect, all of his knives would be expensive enough that he would alienate a large portion of his market. Kyley has sold somewhere around 500 knives since he started making. That alone should say something about how well his business model is working. I can tell you that he actually puts out a superior cutting tool, regardless of the level of finishing detail you require. In that sense, he is "doing his best" with each knife. But in the literal sense, he is not trying to win awards at knife shows with each individual knife he produces. Most of them are actually intended for use, rather than collection, so a really fine finish is actually a total waste of money for the buyer.
 
Yes, Rich in my niche I focus the money they spend on the details I feel are important to keep the cost as fair as possible for my work at the price I deem of good value. if they want extras (most do not) then of course it can cost.. Making a knife pretty can easily double or triple the cost.. I'd rather they spend the money on good materials and construction for user knives than something they can take a nice photo of. My customers are typically not collectors.

Thanks.
 
KyleyHarris said:
It does seem that way.. Who knows why.. Forums seem a bad place for opposing ideas to share space. The tone is never as friendly as a pub.
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Who knows why? You tell someone they are a bad client / hard to please, that they like to take advantage of makers' duress and that they are the type of person to let makers down... then you cast your pondering gaze upon the blamess sky and ask "Who knows why it all goes south?" :rolleyes: You crack me up. :D

It's not that forums are a bad place for sharing opposing ideas - it's that the proximity of pool cues in pubs acts as a natural deterrent to puffed up blowhards who want to spew accusations without substance and without consequence.

Roger

PS - Preserved for posterity:

KyleyHarris said:
.. If I dont have your money, I have very little obligation to you to get something done..
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You should put that in your sig line - it sums up quite succinctly who you are and what you are about.
 
Well Roger, perhaps you should put in your sig line "I want you to slave for nothing, and hope I pay you at the end"

You seem to have a nicely one-sided myopic view to reading posts..
Perhaps you should consider that you came in telling me I demand money, and offer no obligations and basically steer a good discussion in a vein that suits your preference to get something for nothing. :) You dont crack me up, because I'm too busy to deal with people that concern me to worry much about you.

I'll assume in the above statement that you are the puffed up blow hard Roger that needs the deterrent.

The reality is that you choose to use over-hyped and inflammatory wording intentionally to grab a bite so you could come back in full force..

"Every knifemaker trainwreck story I have personally experienced or heard about in the last 25 years" ? yeah.. just one right? :) Blowhard.

"Kyle - two questions - when you demand a deposit, do you also guarantee delivery exactly when promised? If you are a day late, does the buyer then get the knife for free?" Really? You know nothing about my business practise, but you intentionally use words like ,demand, and guarantee to create a "forum" situation.. If you wanted to be accurate and actually discuss then you would have read my post above like coop, and actually learn something.

If you were not an inflammatory blowhard, then you'd have asked something more like..
"Kyley, is there a reason you ask for a deposit? is there a benifit to the buyer? Do you commit to delivery dates if they pay in advance?"

You see the thing is Rog.. That there are ways that people can communicate, and you clearly are the type of person that can't. what you clearly rely on to make your point is the post count on your account here. Again. Big fish. tiny pond when it comes to knives or business.

What I shake in wonder at, and roll my eyes, is how people like you get around in life with such mannerisms. Clearly incapable of reading posts with content.

"I have worked with countless makers whose obligation to "get something done" was grounded in their personal integrity" You twisted this nicely before.. and I'm sure you'll do it many times to gratify yourself. You may think thats what the makers are doing.. perhaps the ones doing a hobby are just like that.. but I can assure you the ones feeding their family off that knife are actually just trying to make ends meet while people like you want to act buddy buddy but also treat them like bad businesmen who cannot be trusted.

Its interesting that not one of your comments in the negative to me, have been applied to Randall USA, whos business practise is not only the same, but in fact more stringent. Nothing to say? hmm.. I'm guessing because they have less posts than you, that you actually feel your opinion is of more value.

You see.. why people like you make people like me shake in wonder is pathetic commentary like
"If all that is negated for lack of a $50 deposit.... that is not painting a pretty picture."

because what this implies is that they'd get bad service or bad professionalism, and commitment.. This of course is garbage, because it was already made clear that I dont make knives without deposits, and that every knife I make with deposit gets my full attention.
so your twist of the topic was not only illogical, but down right condescending and rude.

What I see is a man so pathetic, then even though I delete my previous comments to you and PM'd you suggesting we just end it, you would actually rather ignore the polite PM, and continue the railroad of self-importance you've built up on this forum.

Preserverd for Posterity..
RogerP said:
...I have worked with countless makers whose obligation to "get something done" was grounded in their personal integrity, their professionalism and their committment to the craft...
..If you are a day late, does the buyer then get the knife for free?
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perhaps you should make that sig line whenever you contact a seller.

Your entire argument is based solely on the belief that you might get out of pocket $50 and that all makers cannot be trusted with your cash.. but you'd like them to trust that you wont go redunant, or just walk away from the deal.. I was wrong.. you do crack me up. :jerkit:
 
KyleyHarris said:
I've offered my opinion and dont have more to say of value. Time to get back to working.
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Well you actually got something right for a change... then you blew it.

I have to admit, I kinda knew the whole "I'm done here, time to get back to work." was more of your puffery. I figured you had at least one more long, rambling essay you needed to share. Perhaps several. You are nothing if not predictable. Your story is already old.

Roger
 
Well Roger, you see.. while I am done on a subject, when someone makes the effort to target something to me directly I reply.. As I said back then.. nothing of value, to the OP.. I'm sure that the things of value you could learn are far greater than I'd ever have time to spare.

My story is not old.. but I'm sure the people who've read your 9000 posts have learnt your behavior patterns quite well.. seems you like that last word dont you? :)

You are quite right.. I did go back to work.. and still work.. thats what people like me do with only 80 posts.. work for a living.. 9000posts? seems you just hang.. right..

Thats ok Roger.. you have taught me many valuable lessons today.. I've learnt so much that my mind is blown by your words of wisdom and wit. I mean.. you can predict people after 3 conversations.. you could make millions if you didn't squander your life here.

Good of you to duck every pertinent question that you cannot answer and maintain your self-serving ability to irritate your betters.

Take care now.. I'm sure you can misquote at least one more thing. afterall, you have proven your sucess in derailing the OP's post by targeting me rather than adding value to a new maker.
 
The folks who seem to be really polarized about the subject of deposits are pretty much universally expressing a lack of faith in the other party. This is a poor basis for any business deal, IMO. Personally, I don't expect a prospective customer to put 100% trust in me, but would drop a discussion on a custom project in a heartbeat upon being held to account for the bad practices of another maker. Just food for thought, if you actively distrust someone, perhaps you shouldn't do business with them to begin with. We aren't talking about a base necessity like food or health care, from the customer's perspective, so there is always the option to abstain altogether if the risks are unnacceptable. A full time maker is a bit more hemmed in in making this decision, because his food and health care is derived from his profits.
I have had customers offer deposits and/or payment up front, and this tells me something about that customer, even though I often decline. The willingness is more important to me than the money changing hands at that point. I'm all for limited risks, but a complete lack of faith will kill a deal for me.
 
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