To baton or not to baton

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Someone had to post photos of batoning. :D
 
The whole idea goes with the money VS knowledge on the knife that you're using. "Your knife is, as strong as your own knowledge of it."
Mora's are good for the strength they have, mora's are good for one day mountain walk ,a bit of bushcraft etc...but in any more serious scenario you need back up.
Like Mors Kochanski,he loved mora's & used them in conjunction with an axe & saw.
This alone should make you think.....about baton in a serious way!...for the next time that you spend your money;)



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My wife was a majorette in high school.
I've always been a little turned on by the batoning.
I don't know about this Kochanski fellow, but I like to beat knives through stuff.
It's fun and useful too.
 
Batoning is good - some people have pain in the back or neck when using an axe :)
Personally I use an axe for the bigger stuff and batoning for kindling,as I find it easier and faster .
 
Gadgetaholic said:
I like the people saying "why risk breaking the knife" - haha, like I ever go into the bush with only one knife!
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kurodrago said:
...but in any more serious scenario you need back up. Like Mors Kochanski,he loved mora's & used them in conjunction with an axe & saw.
This alone should make you think.....about baton in a serious way!...for the next time that you spend your money;)
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This is the multi-tool philosophy that I more generally subscribe to. The 'one knife scenario' is a forced or contrived situation that nobody needs to position themselves into unless by their own will. I always take along at the very least a SAK and bushy-blade. It is just part of my autonomic walking out the door towards the woods set up. So, part of my not caring so much that if I break my bushy batoning, I'll have my SAK. I will not baton my SAK (not sure why I just felt a pain in the groin area typing this), but I can use this tool, including the saw, to complete my task.

On Kurodrago's quote, I see this logic. I support Mor's and many others choice to use a multi-tool combination with an axe dedicated to splitting wood. This is perfectly fine with the caveat that people are resigned to carrying that type of tool. The thing is that there are many other legitimate tool combo's that one can utilize: knife + folding saw that help you process wood and satisfy your anticipated needs for processing wood. A combination that I personally enjoy on camping trips is my sak, bushy knife, mid-sized blade. Sometimes a folding saw comes out as well. Even with that folding saw thrown in there, this four-tool combo is lighter than a 2 tool combo that consists of my bushy-blade + my snow and neely axe. Here I like to use that mid-size blade for camp chores and wood processing. Again, if it breaks (unlikely since it has survived such chores, many, many times), so what. I've got options.

dougo83 said:
I have been camping, hiking, chilling in the woods for the better part of two decades and have never ONCE needed to baton wood to make a fire. Sure, some may find an odd reason to actually need such a skill, but my "research" has shown it to be unnecessary. That said, if you want to chance breaking a knife, go for it. I can't afford to replace them, so it isn't a chance I will take.
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This is truth. There are many paths to wood processing. Batoning is one skill among many. Sometimes, when conditions permit, you can completely process wood by hand and busting up wood using a V-in a tree trunk for leverage. Sometimes these conditions occur, and sometimes they do not. One thing I have learned by travelling many countries is that you often have to re-evaluate your own experiences and skillsets when thrown into a different situation (i.e. type of woods or environment) than what you have experienced in your past.

This is why the 'In my 20 years of camping I haven't used this method once' is an inherently flawed argument. We have hundreds of members here on W&SS who collectively have 1000's of person years experience. That is a bigger collective experience set than any one person's personal experience. When a large number of independent people suggest that batoning is a valuable skill to them, it is unreasonable to try and publicly discount such observations using your personal experience as a rational. That is unless you claim to be an expert in survival skills in all environments. (Dougo83 - you are completely reasonable in your response above and my quoting your post isn't an attack on your response, I just used this as a segway to my little rant.)

Anyhow, batoning is a tool in the tool box of skills. If you keep an open mind to the technique than you may find that it has a wide range of uses that transcend the stereotype of splitting pre-cut firewood rounds. It is a great tool to use for shaping wood, notching as well as unconventional method for taking down small trees, cross cutting or splitting pieces. It may not be the most efficient method for getting a particular job done. If I want to cross cut a wood, I prefer using a saw. Some people prefer to cross cut by bucking wood with an ax. Even if I dislike bucking big wood with an axe (I suck at this because my axe-skills aren't great), I do not discount that there is great value to knowing about the skill and practicing it. I suggest the same is true for batoning. There are right ways, wrong ways, innovative/imaginative ways. There are also work arounds to get the same job and avoid batoning. Its a skill. For each situation you encounter, you evaluate how you are going to get the job done. If you automatically discount a type of skill on philosophical grounds, you only limit yourself and capabilities.

The constant focus on the danger of batoning to knife breakage is really counterproductive over all. This is why I claim people worship their tool more than they do their skill. Lets face it, most of us really like our knives. We pay premium dollars not only for a knife that meets our needs but also for knives that look good, have fancy scales and compliment our personal aesthetic sense of who we are and what we represent. So that knife becomes an investment and I think the 'watch out if your knife breaks' has far, far, far more to do with the fear of loss of your investment more so than the overly trumped up hypothetical survival situation.
 
Again, start with the outside edge, why try to split it in the middle. In my experience, it's more work to cut down the center of a piece of hardwood. I can get through the same piece with less energy by taking off smaller slices. There is less pressure on the knife, you will hit it less, and use fewer calories to have the same results.
 
I've never once needed to baton nor does it really make anything quicker or easier but that said I have batonned in the past but prefer an axe considering it was designed to chop and split
 
kgd said:
This is the multi-tool philosophy that I more generally subscribe to. The 'one knife scenario' is a forced or contrived situation that nobody needs to position themselves into unless by their own will. I always take along at the very least a SAK and bushy-blade. It is just part of my autonomic walking out the door towards the woods set up. So, part of my not caring so much that if I break my bushy batoning, I'll have my SAK. I will not baton my SAK (not sure why I just felt a pain in the groin area typing this), but I can use this tool, including the saw, to complete my task.
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I'm the same - I carry a SAK and a 4.25" fixed blade.

I think the contrived survival/emergency situation argues against batoning. When you are in trouble you want to emphasize safety because the stress of the situation. The other factor is conserving energy. The energy expended by sawing, batoning needs to be balanced by safety, energy expended, and possible attack from animals considerations. Yes, if you are cold you need to get warm and a fire/smoke can be used to attract attention. But do you need to baton for that?


kgd said:
This is why the 'In my 20 years of camping I haven't used this method once' is an inherently flawed argument. We have hundreds of members here on W&SS who collectively have 1000's of person years experience. That is a bigger collective experience set than any one person's personal experience. When a large number of independent people suggest that batoning is a valuable skill to them, it is unreasonable to try and publicly discount such observations using your personal experience as a rational. That is unless you claim to be an expert in survival skills in all environments. (Dougo83 - you are completely reasonable in your response above and my quoting your post isn't an attack on your response, I just used this as a segway to my little rant.)
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I have to disagree with the item bolded. I can see not needing to baton wood and agree with what you say below.

When is a knife required or needed when backpacking or hiking?
Hunting
Fishing
Emergency situations
Bushcrafters or reinactors

Let's eliminate the above items from the discussion for a minute.
Do you need a knife for food preparation (not from hunting or fishing) in the woods? No - food can be prepared at home and packaged until needed.

Do you need a knife as a tool? Yes, to cut rope or to repair/replace something.

Do you need a knife for protection against animals or other humans? Possibly

kgd said:
I do not discount that there is great value to knowing about the skill and practicing it. I suggest the same is true for batoning. There are right ways, wrong ways, innovative/imaginative ways. There are also work arounds to get the same job and avoid batoning. Its a skill. For each situation you encounter, you evaluate how you are going to get the job done. If you automatically discount a type of skill on philosophical grounds, you only limit yourself and capabilities.
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foxx said:
Again, start with the outside edge, why try to split it in the middle. In my experience, it's more work to cut down the center of a piece of hardwood. I can get through the same piece with less energy by taking off smaller slices. There is less pressure on the knife, you will hit it less, and use fewer calories to have the same results.
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Around here there is plenty of wood that is not overly hard and is pretty straight grained - a decent knife has no problem splitting that stuff. Naturally you should adapt your technique to your specific situation - so with hard knotty wood you would decide if it is even necessary to baton and if it is then just baton the wet outer edges off to get to the dryer inner wood.

I have found that even though I can just throw on the bigger pieces of wood once the fire is burning well, batoning the wood into smaller pieces makes it burn faster/hotter. I think that sometimes you may want the hotter burning smaller wood and sometimes something that burns for longer is better.
 
Gadgetaholic said:
Around here there is plenty of wood that is not overly hard and is pretty straight grained - a decent knife has no problem splitting that stuff. Naturally you should adapt your technique to your specific situation - so with hard knotty wood you would decide if it is even necessary to baton and if it is then just baton the wet outer edges off to get to the dryer inner wood.

I have found that even though I can just throw on the bigger pieces of wood once the fire is burning well, batoning the wood into smaller pieces makes it burn faster/hotter. I think that sometimes you may want the hotter burning smaller wood and sometimes something that burns for longer is better.
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I can see what you mean. I dont' think there is an absolute to the OP. Every situation is different, from the wood, the knife, the knife user, the wetness/dryness.
I spent lots of time in NM, even in the mountains it was dry. Lighting a fire there was never a problem, for me.
Once in Kentucky, everything was wet. I had no fire, no knife to process wood at all. I was 18, it was my first backpacking trip. I would have loved to have had to baton wood if it meant having a fire.
I've tried it in my backyard with some seasoned oak, with knots. It's almost impossible to get through it. Seems like lots of stress on the blade, that's the situation I would not try in the woods. I'd just find a different piece of wood.
 
foxx said:
I can see what you mean. I dont' think there is an absolute to the OP. Every situation is different, from the wood, the knife, the knife user, the wetness/dryness.
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Right, I am not looking for an absolute answer. I am most interested in a true survival situation (I know some posters don't like to play the "what if" game regarding survival scenarios, but please put that aside for the moment); what alternative methods do you suggest for obtaining dry kindling in a wet environment? This is a *hypothetical* scenario in which you have to travel light (i.e. not carrying an axe or other heavy metal tool), are resource-limited, and don't expect to encounter civilization for many days. In this scenario you want to preserve your most important tool (your knife) as much as possible because your life very well may depend on having a sharp blade. What would you do?

I think it makes a lot of sense to say you don't need to baby your knife in the day-to-day, and I respect that viewpoint, but I am interested in hearing viewpoints considering a true survival scenario.

Thanks!
 
sharpandsafe said:
Right, I am not looking for an absolute answer. I am most interested in a true survival situation (I know some posters don't like to play the "what if" game regarding survival scenarios, but please put that aside for the moment); what alternative methods do you suggest for obtaining dry kindling in a wet environment? This is a *hypothetical* scenario in which you have to travel light (i.e. not carrying an axe or other heavy metal tool), are resource-limited, and don't expect to encounter civilization for many days. In this scenario you want to preserve your most important tool (your knife) as much as possible because your life very well may depend on having a sharp blade. What would you do?

I think it makes a lot of sense to say you don't need to baby your knife in the day-to-day, and I respect that viewpoint, but I am interested in hearing viewpoints considering a true survival scenario.

Thanks!
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In a non-survival situation I'll baton because I want to.

In a survival situation I wouldn't waste the time and energy to baton just because I wanted to - but I would if I felt that I needed to so I could have some dry wood to start a fire with. If I'm hiking and camping and travelling light then I'll have a SAK and a Mora and either my BK-2 or BK-7 (I don't go ultra-light and I like to have gear I can trust). If something goes wrong and my hiking & tramping trip suddenly becomes a survival situation I'll use whichever Becker I had with me to baton if I need to. If the wood is dry and I can get a good fire going without batoning then I'll save my energy. It is unlikely that I'll have an axe with me as it isn't something that I would expect to need when hiking & camping in this country.
 
The details of a situation would dictate my reaction. Can I walk around and gather dry material throughout the day, knowing I'll want a fire?
Or, did I just twist my ankle? It comes down to what is around you, what is the driest, what is going to get me a fire?
My well being is important, but I won't beat through a knot if I don't have to. I'll burn a spare sock, toilet paper, baton wood, take down a dead tree, whatever I need to do. Usually, it's never been a problem, luckily.
 
Batoning wood is sometimes an advantageous thing to do inside my shelter and if the knife is handy I will use it. I guess everyone has their own reasons for doing things.
 
sharpandsafe said:
Right, I am not looking for an absolute answer. I am most interested in a true survival situation (I know some posters don't like to play the "what if" game regarding survival scenarios, but please put that aside for the moment); what alternative methods do you suggest for obtaining dry kindling in a wet environment? This is a *hypothetical* scenario in which you have to travel light (i.e. not carrying an axe or other heavy metal tool), are resource-limited, and don't expect to encounter civilization for many days. In this scenario you want to preserve your most important tool (your knife) as much as possible because your life very well may depend on having a sharp blade. What would you do?

I think it makes a lot of sense to say you don't need to baby your knife in the day-to-day, and I respect that viewpoint, but I am interested in hearing viewpoints considering a true survival scenario.

Thanks!
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Well, the situation has to be one of cold and wet otherwise you really wouldn't need fire. So if it is just cold, then find dry wood. Gather twigs of sub-pencil size then bigger pieces and get a nice roaring fire that way until the fire is big enough to handle large enough pieces of wood to serve as long term fuel. The bigger pieces of wood can either be processed down by leverage using the crotch/V of a tree trunk, bashed (monkey style) or just dragged into the fire to burn down providing that the piece is dry enough and the fire is mature/hot enough to handle it.

If it is wet, the twig fire approach doesn't work. Bark retains wet for a long time. Even if it feels a bit dry, you will get lots of smoke and it will be stubburn to transition into a hot fire, especially hot enough to burn bigger logs. Here, the best bet is to grab thumb sized (Diameter) or slightly thicker twigs. Use your knife to slice/shave off the wet bark. Place a hankie, spare shirt or tarp down on the ground as a catch and shave the stick into fuzzies. On a small enough stick you can do this pretty readily. You can shave some sticks down to kindling size pieces, while capturing the fuzz/shavings onto your tarp. In this way you build your dry fuel that consist of a range of pieces from shavings, to pencil-lead sized to pencil sized to thumb sized pieces.

Personally, I would go with two or three wrist sized pieces (about 2.5-3" diameter) of wood about the length of my forearm and baton split them. I would select my pieces of wood to include species such as popular, willow, ash, maple or softwood branches and avoid highly knotted pieces/sections of wood as well as avoiding pieces with large bends/curves to them. A wrist size piece of wood can be broken using a tree-V section as leverage. I would shave off the bark like I mentioned with the smaller thumb stick pieces, then split it into quarters by batoning. If you stick to wrist thick wood that has no knots and use a 4" knife you will not stress your knife (assuming you aren't Remo Williams who is described as having unusually thick wrists). Again, I am using my experience and knowledge about wood, my experience and knowledge about batoning and what is appropriate and what isn't for conducting my intended activities in a safe and efficient manner.

Why is this more efficent? Well, the two wrist sized pieces of wood is guaranteed dry under the bark (unless it was picked off the ground). The two will satisfy all my tinder and kindling needs to get a fire hot enough to begin drying and burning larger pieces of wood. The two wrist size pieces of wood are easier to find than 8-10 thumb sizes pieces of wood (maybe not, depends on location, if thumb sized pieces were a plenty maybe I'd go that route). The time and energy required to shave the bark off two wrist sized pieces of wood is much less then it takes to do the same for 8-10 thumb sizes pieces of wood. Batoning takes about 8-12 s and has a minimal strain on the knife. I again refuse to simply adhere to the fear being voiced about the method. If you think under the scenario I outlined that you are placing undo risk to yourself, to your knife or that it involves a high degree of energy expenditure than I can only suggest that you don't actually have much experience batoning for such purposes. One reason why practicing batoning is that this experience helps you to learn about the method, it gives you confidence in the abilities of your knife and you get a solid feel for understanding the process of what is normal and what is abnormal during the split.

What I wouldn't do is try to split a section of wood that was 4" in diameter or slightly under with a 4" or smaller knife. What I wouldn't do is try to baton to completion a piece of wood that after 2 or 3 moderate hits the wood shows no sign of wanting to split. My decision point to stop batoning a resistant piece of wood occurs first during selecting which wood I will use and then by the first couple of batons where I further evaluate the suitability of this piece and its liklihood of splitting. Because I've used my knife 100's of time doing this very activity I have a good intuitive feeling about what a good piece of wood feels like versus a resistant piece of wood feels like during batoning. I don't continuously ramp up my hitting strength drying to force a split that is difficult to do. You can readily deduce this in the time it takes for the spine of the knife to sink to the level of the wood. If it seems difficult at this point, pull the knife out, get another piece or switch to the thumb size technique.

Again, why take a philosophical stance of completely omitting a technique owing to unrationalized fear when there are several checks and balances that can be performed on the way to minimize risk and maximize efficiency? Of course, if I only had one hand then I might find batoning difficult to do. In fact, I'd find a lot of things difficult to do with just one hand except perhaps self gratification....(even then I find that two hands are better ;) )....
 
use your knife for battoning by all means , within its limits

I have battoned with a small knife to make fire , but only cos Im too dam lazy to go collect smaller wood when I can mash it up right here and be annoying using a paring sized knife to bust up a 4x2 and brag about it if it were my only knife Id be more careful and probably go pickup the smaller wood

When I was needing a fire , for moquito reppelent more than anything , 3 days tropical downpour non stop ... the bugs were liking our tarp as a rain free area and trying to eat as much of us a they could as fast as they could ... a smoky fire at least would give us something different to whinge about and maybe even some relief from bugs

I got wet and gathered up some branches , but the knife I had handy was a bigger one I made from a leaf spring so I used it as a draw knife instead of batoning , and made a heap of shavings to light up after I shaved off the wet part , and smashed the rest of the wood agaisnt itself to get it into manageable pieces . the smoke did seem to make the bug issue less of an issue too
 
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