to: lynn griffith...

Let`s take a couple of Tim`s points for example:

Tim claims Lynn still thinks CRKT "stole" his design for the PECK, or even, that Lynn claims to have invented the Wharncliffe design. That was put to rest a long time ago. Lynn`s Sniper was photographed with a CRKT neck knife shortly before the PECK came out. Lynn thought the PECK looked alot like his Sniper and wondered aloud if CRKT lifted the design from him. A very lengthy thread followed his comments where folks claimed Lynn said HE invented the Wharncliffe. He never said that. Ever. (Really!) Lynn also conceded that Ed Halligan`s design was around before the Sniper. He was wrong. However, the bashing he took from certain world class knifemakers was all out of proportion to his tresgression.

This CRKT "issue" is still a red herring that folks like Tim bring out every time Lynn`s name is mentioned. Is that fair?

Tim claims Lynn "badmouthed" makers like Dozier. I`m not sure where Tim gets off criticizing ANYONE for the sin of speaking badly about people! Plu-leeze! Lynn may be the MOST badmouthed knife maker out there, next to Kevin (aka Mad Dog) and the "other" Lynn (@ Cold Steel). Tim is lobbing bricks in a glass house on this one!

Any fair reading of ANY on the Lynn threads doesn`t show Lynn`s "lies shining through" as much as it shows the hatred and ill-will many folks harbor for Lynn. Many of these folks are heavy hitters in the knife community. They seem intent on running Lynn out of business. That`s not going to happen. Lynn isn`t the worst knifemaker out there, as many will claim. He`s not without charactor, as many will will claim. And he`s not without a loyal customer base, as many will claim. Lynn is here to stay. You may as well get used to the idea. I`ve never seen so much misdirected energy spent so fruitlessly on one individual.

The Cold Steels and Mad Dogs and Lynns of the world have a place among us. They will do well inspite of what`s said in our insular, little cyber playground.

It`s only knives, folks! I`d like to think we all have more in common with each other than we think. It`s not worth raising your blood pressure over.
 
So what you are saying is that you still do not get it. Keep trying it will come to you if you do.

Steve. the problem for me (the only major one I have) was the the integrity of a fine person was questioned in public when the thinking out loud was done not to mention an honest company. You do not see that kind of stuff happening every day in the knife community.

I also have problems when customers are asked to bring threads back to the top for the purposed of marketing in an informational forum.

Do you really need more examples are or are you beginning to understand why there is some animosity.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 11-01-2000).]
 
Gus, What kind of mea culpa must Lynn perform in order to atone for the sin of "questioning" the integrity of a "fine person"? Have any of these "fine people" (I`m assuming you mean Ed Halligan & CRKT. Correct me if I`m wrong, evidently I`m not that bright!) come forward to take issue with Lynn? I haven`t seen it. I`ve seen others taking up the cause in the name of all that`s good, but I haven`t heard from the offended parties. What sort of groveling would you have him do?

Gus, can you honestly say that the tirads against Lynn aren`t extremely PERSONAL in nature. This isn`t about knives, it`s a personal vendetta against one of our own. It`s sad to see.

You`re right. I just don`t get it.
 
This is my last statement on the subject. I know Lynn and like him, but I can see the problems that have cropped up due to some actions. The point people are trying to get others to understand is not sinking in.

"FINE PEOPLE" means something in the knife industry (why do you use quotes? these people have earned that reputation from their actions over decades) when it is backed by many years of conduct and dealing with peers.


Here is the bottom line Steve:

There IS a code of ethics and when it is not followed or when it is abused in actions perceived or real, there ARE people who will get upset.

I have nothing more to add that will clarify the issue.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 11-01-2000).]
 
I used quotes because I was quoting you. Frankly, I think we`re all "fine people" here. I wouldn`t presume to think otherwise. (I do question how useful hyperboly like that is to this discussion. Hence, the "quotes". I mean no disrespect.) However, one criticism Lynn gets is, when the bashings begin and other people stand up for Lynn, people say "Where`s Lynn? Why won`t he defend himself?" So, I guess what I`m asking is, where are the offended parties? Why won`t they speak up for themselves and their reputations? Why must we take your word, or anyone elses over how upset these folks are about Lynn? Could it be that there isn`t a great deal of animosity between Lynn and CRKT? And why are so many folks here ready to jump into the Lynn pigpile everytime his name comes up around here?

I think the attacks against Lynn are always ad hominum, rarely are they about real issues. If these discussions could be held in a civil tone, like adults, maybe, just maybe something positive could come from all this. Otherwise it`s just mudslinging and name calling. And from moderators who should know better!

[This message has been edited by Steve B. (edited 11-01-2000).]
 
Steve, I will admit, a lot of attacks on Lynn were unwarrented and flat rude, especially on my part. I should have put a lot more thought into some of my comments. I do not regret posting about Lynn's ethics. I do think I should have been more tactful, but what's done is done. You stated we are not sticking with the issues by attacking Lynn. Sorry but Lynn IS the issue. I don't hate Lynn. I don't even dislike the man. I have never even met him other then a few e-mails. He always responded promptly to me, and I like that. However, his ethics in the knife community are what turns me off. A lot of his claims are, no better word for it, lies. Pure and simple. Nothing to back up what he claims. I also have a problem with him sending his forum moderators over here to praise and advertise his product. A lot of other things, many of which have been mentioned earlier, are simply ridiculous. Some of them are so bad, I don't know whether to get upset or simply laugh. Steve, the whole point, which you don't seem to get, is the lack of integrity and ethics. THAT is why people are upset. You keep talking about 1 certain situation. I am glad you are stuck on that, but that was NOT the issue. And I believe you were the one wanting to stick with the issues. I have said it before, the knife community is a very close one. When someone in that community is showing a lack of integrity or ethics, it reflects on all of us. I feel bad that Lynn's integrity has pretty much been ruined on these forums, but he brought it on himself. He should have known that sooner or later, people would talk. You really can't blame any of this on anyone but Lynn. Anyways, that's enough for me on this topic. Next time I see a LG post, I am just gonna set back and watch. Steve, try to comprehend this time. Lynn's integrity and ethics ARE the issue. It is a big issue. Those have been terribly compromised, and that is why people have problems with Lynn. No more. No less.
 
Jeremy-The only reason I brought up the CRKT thread is because Tim brought it up! (See how hard it is to keep up, Jeremy? I`m glad to see I`m not the only one who can`t grasp anything around here!
smile.gif
)

You talk about ethics, but I don`t hear a lot of specifics. What claims of Lynn`s are lies? What exactly is unethical about his behavior? I hear a lot of innuendo, but never real incidents. I hear about phone calls and private conversations, but never any details. If Tim et al. would like to keep the details to themselves, then fine, keep it a private matter. But it`s not enough to say "trust me, Lynn is unethical." Give us specifics. You may make some converts.

As far as Lynn sending his moderators over to be a shill for his products, why can`t anyone accept that some people like his stuff? Just like some people like Tims, and Kit`s and Darrel`s stuff. No one accuses anyone of being a shill for them, as well they shouldn`t! Why is it anyone who like Lynn`s stuff must have ulterior motives?

I do agree that deleting negative posts is not a good practice, but I do think that Lynn has been put on the defensive in the knife community and is overly sensitive to criticism. Also, there are those who delight in trashing Lynn every chance they get. It must be hard to sort out the criticism from the gratutious bashing. Still, that`s no excuse for needless censorship.
 
Steve,
I am following just fine. Yes, Tim brought up the CRKT thing, but that was the ONLY part you kept pushing and addressing. That was only a specific example of the whole picture. You obviously haven't been keeping up if you have to ask what is a lie and what is unethical. But I will give you some specific examples. First, the 8 hour handrubbed satin finish to "600" grit. You go rub a blade for 8 hours with 600 grit sandpaper and see how much blade is actually left. I have heard from several of Lynn's customers, both present and former, who say the 2 year wait is a lie. A third thing, he has new models, but will not make one for pictures until one is ordered. What kind of business practice is that? You have to order a knife site unseen just to get a picture of it? Also, asking moderators to post good things and bring positive threads back to the top. The reason people accuse Lynn of having moderators do this, is moderators have came out and admited it. He also charges more money for different color of micarta when it is all the same price. Things like that are not honost. There are your examples. I hope you understand now.
 
Jeremy-Welcome to Business in the 21st Century. Some of the practices you`re finding fault with Lynn are standard fare with craftsmen. A waiting period is an abitrary time set by the maker? You do`nt want to wait two years? You find another maker. Lynn has said he doesn`t like doing hand rubbed satin finish, but he WILL do it, but you`re ganna have to pay for it. That`s business. You don`t like it? You go somewhere else. Self promotion is not illegal. Nothing you listed is illegal, or particularly unethical. Craftsmen set limits for themselves. If you don`t like them, you go somewhere else. Don`t like the show? Then change the channel!!! But, no, you want the program tossed off the air so no one ELSE will be taken advanage of. Well, some people LIKE this stuff. You ought to make your peace with that fact.

It takes all kinds......unfortunately, this Lynn lynching mob grows uglier every day.

Don`t you guys see you`re not covering yourself with glory?
 
Steve, you still don't get it. Lying to people is unethical. Yes, he hates to satin finish, but it does NOT take 8 hours to do it. Charging higer prices for the same price material based on color isn't really ethical either. I can tell you are going to refuse to listen to me, so my dealings with you are over. Have a great day.
 
from lynn's forum on the new forum knife:

I am measuring responses on current forum knives (all great so far), against
cancellations or voids of current forum knives (2 out of 12), against current orders, against projected work plan, against revenue lost through the 20% discount, against money recouped through productivity regained by models being the same, and paperwork saved by my having complete freedom on choosen handle material (by not having have seperate notations on each knife), against the interest shown. And a few other factors. In other words I want to see how bad you all want it, and if I can work it in.
Click to expand...

lynn, could you please explain this one?! sounds like another snow job.
 
So what are you, Tim? Lynn`s probation officer? Why do you care so deeply about how Lynn runs his business? How is it YOUR business? If Lynn were to question your business practices, I`d bet you`d tell him to eff off so quick it`d make your head spin! Jeeze! It`s like an old ladies` gossipy sewing circle around here!

We get the picture. You don`t like Lynn. How many ways can you say the same thing over and over and over and over......
 
Steve,

Not to be a$$hole,but are you Lynn` bodyguard??

------------------
Jay
Life is like a box of chocolates,never know what your gona git!
ICQ#4571042
 
steve b i asked lynn a simple question again and you blow off your mouth. did i address the question to you? no i didnt. are you lynn's spokesman, if not why do you keep interrupting since you obviously still dont have a clue as to what this is about??

gus has tried to explain it to you, jeremy has tried, why dont you just keep quiet and watch?

if after all this time you still have no idea why lynn's business ethics, or lack thereof, effects the entire knifemaking business, then you should simply stay out of this. if i address a question to you then ok, but so far i have only addressed them to lynn but you seem to feel a need to interrupt and keep showing everyone you really have no clue as to what this is about.
 
Tim,
He's not ever going to get it. Anyone who would make the comment "It's only knifemaking" on a General Forum post, well, that says it all.
rolleyes.gif
 
I don't know about you guys ,but I sleep so much better at night knowing guys like Tim are going to be here standing guard -ever vigilant-to keep hard working family men like me from squandering the family fortune on knives made by ethically challenged makers.Tim how do you feel about Phill Hartsfields ethics and marketing?There are more than a few guys making claims about their products that seem pretty dubious.Why is this always about Lynn?just curious.I have been banned from Lynns forum and I don't buy his knives or his hype and ego.I also don't buy your claim that this thread is only about your desire to defend innocent knifebuyers or defend the honor of knifemaking.This one is just too weird.Hearing how you talked to Lynn on the phone and made promises that neither one of you kept.Then theres Richard caught in the middle and all of this dirty laundry being aired..this is really some funny stuff.Is this really just a lovers spat between you and Lynn?db told me you swing that way.lol
 
Ben E boy, where did you come up with that one? How did I ever tell you anything?

Looks Like you are not friends with the truth also?
Lets see who else we can drag into this thread, shall we?
 
just a little joke db-dont get your panties all up in a bunch.Afraid tim wont let you be his #1 toadie if he hears you have been talking to me?
troy
 
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