two legged snake problems in the woods

[brizbane]

Bare Rib, I guess that is what natural selection is all about and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense. People who choose to be armed and have a plan to survive a violent encounter will most likely live to see another day. I personnally admire anyone who takes the initiative,fights back and decides not to become a victim. Because you find it unnecessary to carry a handgun, you should not demean others who choose to carry.

 

[Bill Siegle]

I once had three guys tell me they were going to take my rifle away from me. They pulled up as I was reassembling it so it was pretty obvious it was unloaded. I placed myself in as safe a position as I could behind my truck and dialed 91 with my finger over 1. One of em asked if I was gonna call my mommy. I said no.....I want the 911 operator to hear me say "No ! Stop! BOOM BOOM BOOM" When I said boom I eyed each one then let em see my hand on the Sig 220 on my hip. I was literally less than 1 second from yanking and dropping em. Been told by everyone I know including more than a few leos that I shoulda dropped em but they immediately did what I was hoping they would and bolted back to their car. I could hear it winding up in reverse for at least a half mile out that trail! Scared the heck outa me as I still had an hour long drive out of that neck of the woods and drove out with one hand on the wheel and the Sig in the other in case they were set up down the road on me. Had other occassions with drunks on the back roads that were close to being scary. I could tell they were putting feelers out for weakness and we didn't flinch. I usually am a pretty easy going guy but if it took me an hour or more to find solitude, don't just stroll up to my camp. It's rude! I try not to be paranoid in the woods but I know bad stuff does happen so I stay alert and willing to act. We all acknowledge the worst of mother nature can happen with storms blowing in or loosing our gear in a river crossing. Only makes sense to acknowledge the other threats to our safety out there.

 

[straitshot]

I respect the beliefs of any vegetarian who is opposed to my hunting. Those who believe I should be limited to my bare hands or running shoes for defense of me and mine know nothing of history or just choose to ignore it altogether. A weapon in the hands of a responsible person is a deterent, not a threat. Regards, ss.

 

[lambertiana]

Bare Rib - If you don't want to own a firearm, that is your prerogative. I won't try to talk you into buying one. But do not try to take mine away. Let me explain in very simple terms why firearms designed to kill people are (unfortunately) needed. I take responsibility for my own safety, and that of my family. Plain and simple, that is it. If you think the police will be able to save you when trouble strikes, I have news for you. I once called the police to report that someone was trying to break into an occupied residence (mine) in the middle of the night. It took them 45 minutes to arrive. At least I had a shotgun in hand, and the bad guy must have seen me looking out the window and left. In virtually any case of a break-in, the only thing the police will do is make a report, take pictures and evidence, and try to catch the bad guys after they have done what they wanted to do. To expect otherwise is unrealistic, the police can't be everywhere.

After having that happen once, I could not imagine the feeling of helplessness if it were to happen again, with my family home, and to just hope for the best because I was unarmed, praying that the police would arrive before anything bad happened. I will not allow that to happen.

 

[k-spar]

I stumbled over lots of obviously planted pot while doing field work in Maine, but I've been most worried when going through old junk yards and stuff. Definitely felt wary but never really had any problems, maybe cause I'm carrying a big hammer. Though I usually try to talk to everyone I see and tell them what I'm doing. Rural folks tend not to be too thrilled if they find gubmint types on their property unannounced

 

[gbuskirk]

Sad to say, there have been a couple of notorious cases of hunters shooting hunters in the western Wisconsin woods in the past few years, probably fueled by territorialism over land, some racism, some poor communications, and itchy trigger fingers.

 

[David E]

Sounds like it's more than "territorialism:"

The judge who sentenced a Hmong immigrant Chai Soua Vang to life in prison for killing six deer hunters said the man was a "time bomb ready to go off" at the slightest provocation. He received six consecutive life sentences in prison.

This guy was an killer looking for a place to do it. He found it.

.

 

[Guyon]

This guy was an killer looking for a place to do it. He found it.

.

He was certainly unstable, but the men who provoked him were foolish from the get-go. It cost them their lives.

 

[Halfneck]

I use to be just fine in the woods with my Axe/Kuhkri, a Fixed Blade & a Vic Trekker. Then after coming upon a Meth Lab while at my local WMA, I started to rethink carrying a handgun. The increase in violent crime in our National Parks does not inspire confidence either.

Always hate when I hear someone say a Handgun is only for killing & any idiot can use one. A lot of things can be used for killing, handguns are just easier than others. Still comes down to the intent of the person. Handguns are also used in shooting competitions & for hunting.

Personally I like shooting handguns to see if I can hit things at distance or shoot tiny groups at bullseye targets. One of my favorite books is by Ed McGivern called Fast & Fancy Revolver Shooting. Mr. McGivern was no Super Commando Killing machine, just an amazingly gifted handgun shooter. Some of his records still stand today. I consider his shooting ability as much an art as I do a gifted fencer or martial artist.

 

[David E]

He was certainly unstable, but the men who provoked him were foolish from the get-go. It cost them their lives.

How does an UNarmed hunter "provoke" an armed one from a distance?

.

 

[Guyon]

This will probably open up a can of worms.

1. Guns are made to kill things, and I don't like to killing things. Now I'm going to contradict myself some when I say this I do own bows & crossbows, I collect swords and other period weapons and have trained period fighting styles (think of it as western martial arts.) But, to me there is a skill and an art to use these and use them effectivly--any idiot can use a gun (I'm not calling anybody here an idiot, but many of you have relayed stories on this thread of said idiots.)

2. I dislike handguns more than other types of firearms as handguns (at least the vast majority) are designed to kill people, and I don't think that there is a need for the average citizen to be able to own handguns.

Now I say all this being very firearm educated and not ignorance. I come from a family of hunters and my father is a retired federal agent. I grew-up with guns, learning: safety, responsibility, identification, and how to shoot.

David E - I hope this squelched your curiosity. If you or anyone else have any further questions just let me know. I am more than happy to have intellegent discussions on most any topic.

Cheers

I'm pretty sure any idiot can shoot a crossbow or wield a sword. Though those skills can be refined, pulling a crossbow trigger or slashing with a sword isn't exactly rocket science or an art form. News flash: crossbows and swords are made to kill things as well. Do you think the first crossbows and/or swords were made for target practice?

It is an unfortunate fact, but the hands of the average citizen is precisely the place for guns in the society in which we now live. Guns are great equalizers. There's no better item that allows a 5' woman stand off a 6'6" man who would do her harm. Moreover, in the hands of responsible citizens, guns save more lives than are ever reported in the press. You should have a look at this 20/20 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

That said, I am an advocate for getting training if you own and carry a gun. TN requires a fairly lengthy class with both a written and a shooting component. Continued education in this regard is always a wise decision that can help you understand and improve decision making should you ever be forced to draw a gun in self-defense.

 

[Guyon]

How does an UNarmed hunter "provoke" an armed one from a distance?

.

If someone is on your property with a rifle, good judgment dictates that you don't shout racially-tinged expletives at them unless you've got good cover and your finger on 911.

Hesebeck is one of the hunters who survived.

The statements of both Vang and Hesebeck record that Vang removed the scope from his rifle before firing his first shot. Vang claims race may have been a factor, alleging that during the verbal dispute, some of the local hunters yelled out racial slurs at him such as "chink" and "gook". On the stand Hesebeck admitted Robert Crotteau had called Vang a 'Hmong a--hole.'

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_Vang

 

[David E]

This will probably open up a can of worms.

1. Guns are made to kill things, and I don't like to killing things. Now I'm going to contradict myself some when I say this I do own bows & crossbows, I collect swords and other period weapons and have trained period fighting styles (think of it as western martial arts.) But, to me there is a skill and an art to use these and use them effectivly--any idiot can use a gun...

This is, I'm afraid, a typical response. The old elitist attitude of "MY stuff (gun/knife/sword/crossbow) is alright, but YOUR guns, well.......any idiot can shoot a gun, therefore, they should be banned.....but MY stuff is fine because I'm so skilled and artful and shit!"

2. I dislike handguns more than other types of firearms as handguns (at least the vast majority) are designed to kill people, and I don't think that there is a need for the average citizen to be able to own handguns.

You dislike some inanimate objects, but advocate and own others that are also "designed for killing." Who are YOU, sir, to decide for anyone else that they don't "NEED" a gun? Could a 110 lb female wield your sword as "artfully" as you to prevent a rape? Oh, wait, that's not realistic to expect a 110 lb female to carry one. Would you rather she be raped, or that she killed her would be 300# rapist with a snub nose .38?

Now I say all this being very firearm educated and not ignorance.

Pardon me for stating the obvious, but you simply cannot be "very firearm educated" and make the statements you make. Common sense alone totally deflates your arguments and assertions.

I come from a family of hunters and my father is a retired federal agent. I grew-up with guns, learning: safety, responsibility, identification, and how to shoot.

How many handguns did you shoot ? Did your father carry a handgun? Why? Does he still have it ? Why ? Are you saying that only LE and military have a "need" for a handgun ? Are you saying that all the civilians that used a handgun to defend their lives really didn't "need" that gun to do so?

.

 

[straitshot]

Pitdog- you really should give it a try. There are so few other outdoor activities that require one to use his (her) best skills, judgement, and restraint. I don't always take the shot- sometimes just knowing "game over" is my reward when the shot would have been a sure thing.

This fall I stalked a javelina herd spotted from a ridge at long range. I stumbled into the middle of them in heavy brush, watched them scurry all around in different directions, but didn't take the shot. I couldn't tell boars from sows and there were many piglets in the bunch so I didn't want to make orphans of them. Two days later I found another herd and took a boar.

For me it's the planning, anticipation, and purpose for being in the field up to the moment of the shot even when I decide to hold and just mentally say bang. It was that way for me with mountaineering- summits were my excuse to climb but not my reason for climbing. Kind of hard to explain. Some don't understand, but then I don't understand golf probably because I've never tried it. Regards, ss.

 

[David E]

If someone is on your property with a rifle, good judgment dictates that you don't shout racially-tinged expletives at them unless you've got good cover .....

Well, I agree that was ill-advised !

.

 

[Guyon]

Well, I agree that was ill-advised !

.

Seems all the events during the initial confrontations are in dispute, but there had long been tensions among Wisconsin hunters that divided along racial lines.

The slayings also occurred during the state’s beloved deer hunting season and exposed racial tension between the predominantly white north woods residents and immigrants from the Hmong ethnic group of Southeast Asia.

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9359296/

The only folks who know the truth were the ones there, but I strongly suspect that there was some pretty "provocative" language in the initial encounters.

Best course of action, given the man was armed, would have been to call the police and wildlife officials and let them press a trespassing charge.

The Wisconsin hunters who decided they could handle the situation most likely (a) did a poor job of it and (b) paid for it with their lives.

This is my take only from reading multiple reports of the event and trial. It was a tragic occurrence that, with better judgment, could have been avoided.

 

[Sam Salvati]

Sam , that goes back a few years and I can't remember the exact details. My hunting buddy knows the guy....Sam, you never know .There was a young woman who had lived in the city and always carried a knife for defense .She moved here in a very rural area so she stopped carrying the knife. She met a BG from PJ who murdered her ,by Camp Lochada.I spoke to a few people who had gone to school with him - they were not surprised ! BTW case was solved very quickly becasue a citizen noticed something unusual and wrote down a plate number !

Yeah you do never know, sad thing alot of times too.

 

[Kat013]

2. I dislike handguns more than other types of firearms as handguns (at least the vast majority) are designed to kill people, and I don't think that there is a need for the average citizen to be able to own handguns.

Friend of mine has spina bifida. She can walk, sort of. Running is out of the question. Hand-to-hand is pretty much out of the question. Several years ago, she was walking home at night, and a guy pulled a knife on her and demanded her purse. She pulled the revolver a relative had given her out of the purse, pointed it at the guy, and said, "No." He ran away.

Care to tell me how that might have ended if she hadn't had the gun?

Care to tell me how that might have ended if she had been, say, your aging mother or grandmother instead? How about a teenage daughter, or niece?

Hell, I weigh about 115 lbs on a 5'6" frame. I may be agile, I may be fast, but strong I most certainly am not. If I get cornered, WHAT THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? I'll fight like a wildcat, believe me, but I wouldn't be betting on myself unless I was facing a single intoxicated attacker. Multiple attackers? Forget it, I'm dead meat - after they gang-rape me.

Wake up. Guns are the great equalizer. We can't really carry long guns when we're out and about, which leaves handguns. Even if it was legal to carry a sword, and yes, I fight in the SCA, I wouldn't. Because regardless of whether it's legal to carry a handgun in whatever area I'm in, I fully expect the CRIMINALS to have a gun. Which means, in order for me to have a chance, I have to have one too.

Carrying a handgun means that I can intimidate even a group of guys and convince them to look for easier pickings. There is NOTHING else on this planet that will let me do that. NOTHING.

Friend of mine, able-bodied male, went to a grocery store late one night. Noticed a con artist when he walked in. When he walked out, the guy said, "nice car." to him. Then started following him to his car. My friend put his hand on his waistband holster and said, "I think you need to step away." The guy ran. Tell me, how is this an undesirable outcome because my friend had a handgun?

 

[Zombie Zeke]

There is no can of worms.

People who have guns, bought them legally and keep them tucked away in leather aren't going to be the one's robbing people, they never have been. They will unfortunately be the one's persecuted for the negligent acts of those few who do. But, hopefully, we will also be the first in line to spill blood for you to disagree with what and how we do what we do it. Again it's ingrained within the history of America, the constitution and those who still support it.

You'll get no argument from me, I sincerely hope that you never run into those that will do you harm, who are armed; with your bow and arrow in tow. There is a historical precedent for what happens in that instance to.

 

[straitshot]

Saw a tee shirt at a gun show that read:

[edited on second thought, don't want to fuel the fire]. ss